Alan,
We do get carried away with clues sometimes ;-)
On the topic of getting to the right birth certificate for Elizabeth LEWIS, go back to
what I said about Criggion being formed out of Alberbury Parish *in 1864* -- so,
Elizabeth's birth would be registered in Shropshire, not in Montgomeryshire
(Llanfyllin or otherwise).
You can try FreeBMD again but you may also want to have a look at
www.ukbmd.org.uk and
see whether Alberbury has been covered already (first, look to see which Registration
district covered it in the late 1850's) and you can then look for the likely birth of
Elizabeth LEWIS. At least, when you order her certificate, you'll be able to say her
mother's name was Ellen or Elinor and if you obtain the 1861 pr 1871 Census entry,
you'll also have her father at home (and all of their birthplaces), siblings, and
maybe an in-law or two.
You have enough to go on to get further information on your George, as well, so I guess
the George HUGHES I found working on the farm wasn't the right one. See how easy it
is to leap to incorrect conclusions?!
These assumptions were all made because the available documentation wasn't collected
going backward in time (i.e., 1901 census, 1891 census) -- the information from which
would've provided birthplaces for both Elizabeth and George. (Sorry -- this is a
common refrain of mine -- the need to always work backward in time and obtain all possible
documentation!)
So, it looks like you're in business.
The LUTNER name caught my eye as I came across two people with that surname in the 1851
Census somewhere up in the same area we were looking for your LEWIS & HUGHES -- on the
border with Shropshire. Let me know if you'd like that entry -- there can't be
too many unrelated LUTNER's in that area.
Regards,
Julie Preston
juliefpreston(a)sbcglobal.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan England
To: Julie Preston ; KEITH ROBERTS
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WLS-MGY] Elizabeth LEWIS baptised in LLandriniov circa 1853-55
Keith & Julie
Whoa! Can we go back a few steps please?
I can't tell you both how much I appreciate your efforts, but I am covered in
embarrassment because your enquiries have taken directions I wanted to avoid.
Because I was so focussed on discovering more about Elizabeth LEWIS and knowing how easy
it is to take an incorrect turn with such a common name, I omitted to tell you more about
her husband! His full name was George Enoch (sometimes recorded as Enock) HUGHES and he
was born on 15 Jun 1861 in Market Drayton. Helpfully, his father's name was Enoch and
his mother's Mary Ann (nee LUTNER). Enoch lived from 1813 to 1906, and was a master
blacksmith.
In an earlier email, Julie found a record of a LEWIS family in the 1881 Census, and
said: "So, if this is your Elizabeth LEWIS, her birth parish was Criggion and not
Llandrinio. This is interesting, as my information shows the parish of Criggion was formed
out of the parish of Alberbury, Shropshire, in 1864, so any events prior to 1864 would be
found in those registers and, presumably, any births in Alberbury parish would've been
registered in Shropshire."
Indeed, consistent with Julie's surmise, the 1901 Census for George & Elizabeth
HUGHES, records them as living in the parish of Alberbury (Civil Parish of Bausley) in the
village of Coedway, in Forden Rural District, in the Parliamentary Division of Montgomery.
(Forgive the detail, but I feel that I must record it to avoid being the cause of further
digressions.) It also records George (the "Enoch" is omitted) as having been
born in Gtr(?) Wollaston (which I believe is Greater Wollaston) and Elizabeth as having
been born in Criggion!!
The marriage certificate records George Enoch Hughes as having been resident in
"Alberbury" at the time of marriage, and Elizabeth in "Llandrinio".
Because she was then living in the village of Llandrinio and they were married in the
"Parish of Llandrinio", I thought that there was a very high probability that
Elizabeth had also been born there. I also thought that with Julie's help I had
located the correct record for Elizabeth LEWIS's birth (see below), but the later
information discovered by Julie in the 1881 Census now casts doubt on the record detailed
below (Elizabeth LEWIS born in 1853 in the subdistrict of Llansanffraid-ym-mechain - Ref
FFRAID/06/36)
It's back to the drawing board for me again, I'm afraid. Using the FreeBMD/GRO
records, I am still up against the problem of accuracy ie which "LLanfyllin"
District entry is the correct one?
I guess my mistake was in originally asking for SKS to look in the Landrinio Parish
Registers, when it seems I should have pointed towards the "Criggion Parish
Registers".
I hope I have not bored you with the detail, but I realise now that by not disclosing
more of what I had discovered, I was unwittingly sending both of you in the wrong
direction. I do apologise. I am also grateful for the trouble you have both gone to. All
is not lost, because I have acquired more knowledge as a result.
Alan.
___________________________________________
Julie
First may I thank you for your efforts. However, I fear that inadvertently I may have
misled you.
Elizabeth LEWIS married George HUGHES on 28 Sep 1884 in Llandrinio in the parish church
"according to the Rites etc of the Church of England". So I guess the extra
information which might have been available from a Calvinist Methodist register is not to
be expected!
However, the marriage certificate records her age as 30? (bad second digit, but his age
is clearly 28). In the 1901 Census on-line index, both of them are recorded as being 46
yrs, but she was illiterate or there could have been a mistranscription. Anyway, she was a
spinster, her address at the time of marriage was Llandrinio, and her father's
occupation was Labourer. I assumed she was born & baptised in Llandrinio.
I followed your advice, and discovered an Elizabeth LEWIS born in 1853 in the
subdistrict of Llansanffraid-ym-mechain - Ref FFRAID/06/36. I presume this reference
number will enable me to order a copy of the birth certificate from Welshpool?
As you correctly say, Elizabeth's birth certificate is the key document here, and
with your help (especially the fact of Llandrinio being within the subdistrict of
Llansanffraid-ym-mechain), I am hopeful that I have identified the correct record. (As you
are well aware, Elizabeth LEWISes were very common in Montgomeryshire.) Without
establishing where Elizabeth was born, the location of her parents in 1851 remains very
speculative - they could have moved to Llandrinio before or after they married. It would
seem more feasible to identify the family in 1861 with Edward LEWIS as Head, and Elizabeth
as his 8yrs old daughter.
Anyway, you have given my enquiries a much needed boost, for which I am very grateful.
Thank you.
Alan.
_____________________________
At 00:27 16/10/2005, you wrote:
Alan,
A baptism entry in the registers of the *parish church* (i.e., the Church in Wales)
won't normally provide the mother's maiden name. The Calvinistic Methodist
registers always provide that information, plus the mother's (& father's)
residence before marriage, which is wonderfully helpful.
The key document you need is the birth certificate of Elizabeth Lewis -- check the
North Wales BMD Index online to find a likely candidate (look for the Reg. District of
Llanfyllin [subdistrict Llansanffraid-ym-mechain] which covered Llandrinio.
www.northwalesbmd.org.uk
I suggest you order the certificate directly from the Supt. Registrar at Welshpool.
Do you have her father's occupation and her residence at the time of her marriage
(from her marriage certificate)? I take it her birthplace (Llandrinio) was obtained from
later census returns?
In the 1851 Census of Montgomeryshire (CD pub. by Powys FHS), there is only (1)
unmarried Edward LEWIS in the same enumeration district as Llandrinio -- could this be
Elizabeth's father?
1851 Census, Parish of Meifod:
LEWIS, Edward h u 26 grocer
MGY Llanbrynmair High Street /f352/p17
OWENS, Thomas ap u 16 grocer (app) MGY
Meifod High Street /f352/p17
DAVIES, Mary sv u 26 general servant
MGY Llanerfil High Street /f352/p17
DAVIES, Richard vs m 49 farmer
MGY Llanbrynmair High Street /f352/p17
DAVIES, Evan vs u 19 shopman
MGY Llanbrynmair High Street /f352/p17
There were no Edward LEWIS' in Llandrinio in 1851 and only one other possibility
in the area - already married but with a young family (all daughters):
1851 Census, also Parish of Meifod:
LEWIS, Edward h m 38 farmer 60 acres MGY
Guilsfield Fawnog /f295/p9
LEWIS, Jane w m 31
MGY Guilsfield Fawnog /f295/p9
LEWIS, Mary d u 8
MGY Guilsfield Fawnog /f295/p9
LEWIS, Jane d u 5
MGY Guilsfield Fawnog /f295/p9
LEWIS, Sarah d u 3
MGY Guilsfield Fawnog /f295/p9
WILLIAMS, Jane sv u 19 house servant MGY
Guilsfield Fawnog /f295/p9
JONES, John sv u 22 farm servant
MGY Guilsfield Fawnog /f295/p9
LEWIS, Ann vs w 79
SAL Buttington Fawnog /f295/p9
Regards,
Julie Preston
juliefpreston(a)sbcglobal.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan England
To: WLS-MONTGOMERYSHIRE-L(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 6:50 PM
Subject: [WLS-MGY] Elizabeth LEWIS baptised in LLandriniov circa 1853-55
My Great grandmother, Elizabeth LEWIS, married my Great grandfather, George
HUGHES, in Llandrinio on 28 Sep 1884.
Is there SKS with access to the Llandinio parish registers who would be
willing to look up details of Elizabeth's baptism circa 1853-55? Her father
was Edward LEWIS, and I should be interested to discover her mother's name.
Armed with further details, I might be able to discover her family in the
1851 & 1861 Censuses.
Keeping my fingers crossed.
Alan ENGLAND
York, England.