My apologies if you receive multiple copies in Merioneth and Clwyd.
Hi Ann,
Thank you very, very much for your explanation. It's so mind-boggling
that I don't know what to say! It all makes so much sense if you caste your
mind back about 250 years, into the mode of thinking in a generation that
was going through an identity change and easing the process with a slow
adoption of the new ways and a period of blending with the old. It would be
like the modern culture shock of the generation gap. The younger people
would have to explain their changes to an older generation who would want
to stick to the old ways. People would change their manner of speaking and
thinking according to the nature of their listener. I was curious in
working on the BTs how sometimes the vicar in one period would usually
write "ye son of __" but occasionally "the son of __" and I wondered
if it
signified anything about that family as perceived by the vicar. Was the use
of 'the' indicative of a higher education than 'ye' at that time?
I suppose that when Robert Ellis and wife Mary of Llandrillo had three
sons: Ellis in 1748, Thomas in 1751, John in 1757, they would, in the Welsh
tradition, be known fully as Ellis Robert Ellis, Thomas Robert Ellis and
John Robert Ellis. But within their family and close community, because
people would know they are referring to Robert Ellis' boys they would be
Ellis Roberts, Thomas Roberts and John Roberts - leaving out the possessive
apostrophes just like punctuation was omitted from much of the writing of
their day. But to someone from outside their community they would be Ellis
Robert Ellis, etc. unless the outsider was of English background with a
perceived need to emphasize the last name, the surname. Then Ellis Robert
Ellis would be Ellis Ellis but still remain Ellis Roberts to his family and
friends. There are several instances in the BTs where the Llandrillo
minister has used the triple name for a person, despite his anglicized
frame of mind.
It's interesting too that the first son was called Ellis, presumably in
honour of Robert Ellis' father - another old Welsh tradition. Perhaps the
second son Thomas was named in honour of Mary's father?
Following your example, I should look up the will of Thomas Robert Ellis
of Blaen y Cwm, born 1751 in Llandrillo, to see if he mentions his daughter
Jane, wife of Thomas Francis.
Failing that: any Thomas Roberts or Thomas (Roberts) _____? born about
1740/50 in Llandrillo or any nearby parish?
Another problem here, apart from the obvious, is that someone really
screwed up the BTs for the 1760s. There are large sections covering several
years which do not have the year written on any page and the order of the
pages have become jumbled. Although there are plenty of single pages, their
lack of continuity suggests several missing years in the 1760s. After my
struggles with it, it's going to be interesting to see how Clwyd FHS got
around that. Of course they had the registers too. I had no idea there were
similar problems with the registers. How could that be fouled up if it was
the original and kept in the church? -yes, minister!
Back to Thomas Francis of Blaen Gwnnodl, Llangar, with regards to the
present John Roberts Ellis discussion. What sort of documents would you
look for to see if Thomas Francis bore a third name - a grandfather's name?
If he doesn't use it on his marriage record, or his marriage bond, or his
children's baptisms, would it be safe to presume he is purely a FRANCIS and
that his ancestors made the change to a fixed surname earlier?
Perhaps the French connotation of the name -ie. going back to a french
monastery member perhaps called FRAUNCEY- would imply the latter? I
understand that the use of fixed surnames started in parts of France around
the year 1200 but there is no way of knowing if that tradition was
maintained when they immigrated to Wales. Besides, if a monk had a child
with a Welsh woman, wouldn't the child take the mother's family name?
Too many questions? -back to transcribing some more 1750-1760s
Llandrillo BTs, a seemingly hopeless job when the years are missing.
Cheers and again, thank you very much,
Tony
------------ Original Message -------------
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:42:44 +0100
From: Ann Macdonald Watt <ann(a)met.ed.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Llandrillo yn Edeirnion BTs
X-Mailing-List: <WLS-MERIONETHSHIRE-L(a)rootsweb.com> archive/latest/117
Your mention of the marriage of Thomas Francis and Jane Roberts being
in
the Clwyd FHS transcription but not in the BTs is a hint to what
happened. The BTs were supposed to be a copy of the entries in the
parish register which were sent off each year to the Bishop. However
sources such as "Welsh Family History: A guide to research " (Rowlands)
make it clear that either of the BTs and the parish Registers may
contain events which are not in the other. The Clwyd FHS transcriptions
have been made using both sources which is one of the things that is so
good about them. If you are looking at a parish for which there are no
transcriptions, you really need to look at BOTH the BTs and the Parish
Registers. As to why there should be these discrepancies, it seems that
the clergy were divided in their feelings about having to compile the
BTs. On the one hand there were those who were really in awe of the
Bishop and put far more care and attention into the copy they sent him
than the version they kept for themselves. On the other hand there were
those who regarded having to make an extra copy for the Bishop as a
chore to be got out of the way as quickly as possible, so they put a
minimum of effort into making the BTs.
I think Francis could be either a male or a female name. These days the
female form is usually spelt Frances, but this is not invariably so -
there were a couple of girls spelt Francis even in the 20th century in
my husband's family.
To come back to the Roberts' of Llandrillo, and your query about Blaen y
Cwm, I don't know about this particular place, but it was certainly the
case that places might have more than one name. I had spent years trying
to find the whereabouts of a place called Pant y Sais in Bryneglwys,
which was given as the address of my gg-grandmother (Ann Roberts born in
Llangar in 1812) at the time of her marriage in 1841. Finally my third
cousin Eirwyn Davies in Chester, got the answer from a friend of his at
LLGC - places might have a popular name as well as an official name.
After that Eirwyn kept searching at the Ruthin Archive until he came
across a document or a map which made it quite clear that Pant y Sais
was indeed an alternative name for the farm called Pentre Isaf, which is
what I suspected and hoped. So there may well be a different name for
Blaen y Cwm too.
Other points: the Jane Francis who died in 1801 could have been either a
child of Thomas and Jane, or the wife of Evan Richard. Or someone else
altogether. Perhaps there is a gravestone in Llandrillo?
It is apparently important to realise that when someone is said to be
"of" a certain parish in their marriage record, it does not mean that is
where they were born, but just where they happened to be living at the
time of the marriage. So when Thomas Roberts of the parish of
Gwyddelwern married Jane Jones in 1771 it does not mean that he must
have been born there, and in fact it would probably also be worth
looking in Llandrillo for possible births. And that being so, maybe you
should consider the Thomas born in Llandrillo to Robert Ellis and Mary
in 1751. I am coming more and more to the conclusion that my John
Roberts and Jane of Ty'n y Nant in Llangar are identical to John Ellis
and Jane of the same address - some of the children are Ellis and some
are Roberts, but never in the same or adjacent years. And this John
Ellis who married Jane Jones in Llangar in 1791 was said then to be "of
Llandrillo".I also found a burial for John Ellis of Ty'n y Nant aged 62
in 1818. There were no likely births for him in Llangar so I tried
Llandrillo and there I found a John son of Robert Ellis and Mary
baptised in 1757, which seems very possible.(The other children were
Ellis (b 1748), Thomas (b 1751, mentioned above) and Gwen (b 1755).) He
could have been using both surnames Roberts or Ellis - I know there were
other families related to me at this time who would switch surnames
between a patronymic and their father's surname. I would be interested
to hear of other people's experiences with this kind of thing.
I hope to look for a Will for John Ellis next time I am in Aberystwyth.
I have looked at large number of John Roberts Wills already!
Best wishes,
Ann
--
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Ann Macdonald Watt
Edinburgh
Scotland
email: ann(a)met.ed.ac.uk
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