Maureen Grigg ,
This address bounced. I wonder if you can get my answer this way. Sorry
to burden the rest of the list.
Betty Pace
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Betty A. Pace <bapace2(a)juno.com>
To: m.grigg(a)telco4u.net
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:03:32 +0000
Subject: Re: John Williams (b.1822) m. Mary Jones in 1851
Dear Maureen,
Thank you for responding. You are correct. I live in Norfolk, Virginia
in the U.S. My mother's Welsh family came to this country in 1915 when
my mother was only 4 years old. It has been something of a problem for
me to research the family, except that I have used films from my local
LDS center. However, two names like Williams and Jones are so common in
Wales that I have just about despaired of getting any further.
A lady in Wales went to an index somewhere and found the marriage of my
John Williams and Mary Jones in Llanfyllin in 1851. The parents of
neither was given on the marriage record she looked at, and I am not
certain what record it was. She is a very dependable researcher and was
trying to help me, so I know she sent me everything she found. I learned
the names of the parents of John Williams from the IGI-- John and Mary
Williams (no further details). The mariner records also showed his year
of birth as 1822 in Llanddulas, Denb.
I think I found them in Liverpool in 1851, but can't be certain this is
the pair
570 1 Thompson Bldg. (it must be on Edmund St., and must have 8 Court
within it)
John Williams, 28, master mariner, Denbigh. (b.1823)
Mary, 21, wife, Anglesey (b.1830)
Elizabeth, sister to head of house, 15, scholar, Denbigh.
This entry tells me that Mary (Jones) originally came from Anglesey, and
somehow ended up in Llanfyllin to be married there in March 1851. It
also suggests to me why John Williams may have gone to Amlwch, Anglesey,
when he became widowed--perhaps to take his orphaned child (my Mary Jane
Williams) to relatives there. I know this is wild speculation on my
part. You must suspect how many Jones families there were in Amlwch in
1830. And also how many christenings there were in St. Eleth's church
for a Mary Jones. Plus her family may have been non-conformists.
I also suspect that John Williams (b.1822) was the son of another master
mariner named John
Williams, but have not been able to pin that down totally.
Someone told me that for some reason the 1851 census of Llandulas,
Denbighshire was not available, so I have not attempted to get it through
the LDS, which is where I viewed the 1851 Liverpool census. I did get
the birth certificate of my Mary Jane Williams and it gave her parents as
John Williams, mariner, and Mary Jones.
The 1851 census Liverpool showed that Mary Jones as 21 years of age, thus
b. 1830, perhaps 1829.
I haven't a clue as to the names of her parents. I think she might have
died somewhere between 1852 and 1857, because I believe John Williams had
another wife by 1857 (name unknown)--his will showed a son James as born
between my Mary Jane and the children of the 3rd wife of John Williams
(all born in Amlwch). [Some surviving letters from Mary Jane's daughter
said that her mother had had two step-mothers.] John Williams first son
was named James, I think for James Fisher, owner of the fleet of ships
out of Barrow that employed John Williams throughout his career. I also
have no idea where the family lived between 1851 (Liverpool) and 1861
(Amlwch), by which time John had a 3rd wife (Mary Griffiths of Amlwch).
I do know that in 1861 at census time, John's ship was in the port of
Briton Ferry, Glamorgan on board the Charlotte Helen as Master, aged 38.
This was found for me by someone on the Mariners-L mailing list who
happened to stumble into the entry and knew the ships of my John
Williams.
To complicate matters, while my Mary Jane Williams was christened CofE at
St. Paul's in Liverpool, by 1861 the family had become non-conformists in
Amlwch and I have not been able to find records of a chapel there. She
was married to George Morgan Hughes in a Calvinist Methodist chapel in
Llangefni, Anglesey in 1874, even though they both lived in Amlwch, and
raised a family in Amlwch. However, a family Bible says that the
children were christened "at home" even though her husband was choir
director at some chapel (perhaps Independent or Congregationalist) in
Amlwch. I don't think all of the chapels kept good records, or at least
the records have not come into the hands of the LDS.
I did not know that Llanfyllin had sub-districts. Thus complicating the
matter further. I guess I thought it was a very small town. I had found
my family in Amlwch just by scrolling through the town's census film.
Maybe I was just lucky. Plus I knew the names of the Hughes family
members.
This combination of a Williams and Jones marriage certificate seems an
impossible one. If you have any suggestions, I would certainly
appreciate them. I can get films through the LDS, if I knew what to ask
for.
Again, thank you so much for responding and having mercy.
.
Betty
.
My original posting:
I am looking for a Williams family in Llandulas, Denbigh and a Jones
family in Llanfyllin, Montgomeryshire.
According to the IGI, a John Williams was born in 1822 in Llanddulas,
Denbighshire--father John and mother Mary.
According to the free BMD website, a John Williams married a Mary Jones
in Llanfyllin, Montgomeryshire in March 1851 (recorded). I think these
John Williams are one and the same.
In May 1852, a seaman John Williams and wife Mary Jones had a daughter
(Mary Jane Williams, my great grandmother) in Liverpool. By 1861 Mary
Jones Williams has died and apparently John and his little daughter moved
to Amlwch, Anglesey, where John Williams remarried, to a Mary Griffith
(b.abt. 1827, Amlwch). John Williams died in March 1879 when his ship
was lost at sea (between the 1871 and 1881 census reports). By 1881 Mary
(Griffith)Williams was a widow living in Amlwch with the children of John
Williams (John G., William, and Thomas R.).
There is a Master John Williams who was captain of the schooner "Rose
Schneider", owned by James Fisher of Barrow and lost on 28th August
1879. He had also been the Captain of several other ships of the Fisher
fleet. This Capt. John Williams was also born in 1822, Llandulas,
Denbighshire, and is probably my John Williams.
1880: The will of John Williams, late of Amlwch in the County of
Anglesea, Master Mariner, who died on or since 22nd March 1879 at sea,
was proved at the Principal Registry by Mary Williams of Amlwch, Widow,
the relict, one of the executors. Other executors were Robert Jones of
Amlwch, Ship Owner, and Owen Owen of Amlwch, Flour Dealer; it is possible
that Robert Jones was in some way related to the first wife Mary Jones of
Llanfyllin.
This will suggests another marriage for John Williams around 1857,
possibly in Liverpool, and a son named James Williams was born of that
marriage. I do not know the name of the mother of James Williams, but as
an adult he may have lived in Liverpool, West Derby.
Thus, I am looking for the families of the John Williams and Mary Jones
of the 1851 marriage..--his family from Llandulas and hers from
Llanfyllin, Montgomeryshire, with possible ties to the Jones of Amlwch,
Anglesey. The ships of John Williams were never homeported in Amlwch and
yet he took his family there to live while away at sea, suggesting some
tie to Amlwch.
Betty Pace--bapace2(a)juno.com
On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 19:41:25 +0100 "Maureen Grigg" <m.grigg(a)telco4u.net>
writes:
Hello Betty
If you can find the age and name of the father of Mary Jones by
getting the
marriage cert I may be able to find you more information as I am on
the spot
and have access to the Montgomeryshire censuses.
There are so many Jones families in Montgomeryshire and many living
in the
area which makes up the Llanfyllin registration district which is
an
extensive one with many sub districts, that without the marriage
cert it
would be difficult to know where to start.
Are you in the UK? I don't recognise the e.mail address.
Regards
Maureen Grigg
Montgomeryshire.