----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Porter" <edtporter(a)earthlink.net>
To: <WLS-CARDIGANSHIRE-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 12:49 AM
Subject: [WLS-CGN] Finding land records
Hello List,
How does one go about finding land ownership in Wales? I ask because I
have
been told that such records are private and cannot be acquired by
just
anyone, and find that hard to believe as it would be a simple matter of
public record here in the U.S.
With very considerable difficulty, in a lot of cases. There was no central
system of land registration in most parts of England, and in Wales, until a
voluntary system was set up in 1862, followed later in the 20th century by a
compulsory system. This was gradually extended in various stages, but it
didn't cover all parts of the country until 1990. There are more details at
http://catalogue.pro.gov.uk/ExternalRequest.asp?RequestReference=ri2225 with
some notes of other approaches (based on the National Archives) which may
assist in special cases, if one is fortunate.
In certain cases, one may pick up historical clues from estate rentals and
estate maps, or from rating records (if they survive); from tithe records
and from enclosure records (if applicable) and from title deeds. For a
gradually diminishing number of properties, where the land was held
by copyhold, local manorial records may be relevant (assuming they survive -
see
http://www.hmc.gov.uk/mdr/searches/search.asp?C=W )
All of these may assist in certain instances, but none will
assist in every instance. Do not assume that you will find easily
recognisable addresses or precisely recorded boundaries - very often you
won't, in many of the earlier records.
As explained at
http://www.landregisteronline.gov.uk/ or at
http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/info/faq.asp the modern Land
Registries do not record historical information from previous centuries.
(The system was much simpler in Scotland, where Scots law applied.)
The property in question is near Ffair Rhos and the Esgair-Mwyn lead
mine
in
Upper Gwnnws, Cardiganshire known as "Pantgwyn."
I am anxious to learn the name of his Richard Oliver's father. We do not
know if Richard inherited the property or if he bought it. If we only
knew
who owned the land before he came into ownership, it would help the
process
along. I have checked the freeholder's lists and tithe schedules
and some
ownerships after 1870, but haven't a clue as to how to proceed, even if it
is possible.
Have you tried wills?
This gentleman who is the current owner told me that he has the Deed
and
knows who owned the land for many generations, but he wouldn't show me the
names.
Certainly he is under no obligation. Many people never get to see their own
title deeds, so it seems a little unusual if they are actually being stored
at the property. Of course, we don't know how long "many generations"
means, or whether the documents have always been correctly interpreted. If
the property had once been part of a larger estate (possibly being sold off
in the late 19th or 20th centuries) the deed packet won't necessarily go
back for all that long, anyway.
AJ