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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 19:40:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Celia G. Snyder" <cgsnyder(a)uiuc.edu>
Reply-To: STATE-COORD-L(a)rootsweb.com
To: STATE-COORD-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [STATE-COORD-L] Forward to CCs - Revised Bylaws Online
Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:40:27 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-From: STATE-COORD-L(a)rootsweb.com
Please let your CCs know that the revised Bylaws are online at:
http://www.usgenweb.org/official/propbylaws.html
Thanks!
Celia Snyder
On behalf of the Advisory Board
This is very long for a post to this list, but I hope everyone will read
it and think these things over.
I want to say at the outset that I think The USGenWeb Project is a great
idea, an excellent use of the WWW, and a worthy project to which I have
contributed many hours over the past 15 months, though there are many
others who've worked much harder and longer than I have. What we have
accomplished is pretty wonderful.
I'm concerned about a couple of things that I have not been able to get
answers about.
>From US GenWeb Archives, Adams County (WA), Table of Contents:
<http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/wa/adams/adams.htm>
"The US GenWeb Archives were established to provide a permanent,
*centralized
repository for all genealogical and historical data collected by the US
GenWeb Project, including its county subsidiaries.*" [emphasis added]
Compare to the draft bylaws
<http://www.usgenweb.org/official/bylaws.html>:
3. County-Level Projects - In the items below county refers to any major
divisional structure within a state.
a) Definition
(1) The USGenWeb Project will sponsor, through
each State Coordinator(s) or State Coordinator
and Assistant State Coordinator, a county-level
organization for each state. This approved
organization will provide a website which will be
*a central repository of historical and genealogical
research information for that county.*
[emphasis added]
(2) The county projects are the basis of the
organization of The USGenWeb Project and are
closely allied with, and responsible to,
the state-level coordination of the Project.
b) Purpose
(1) To provide a place where researchers may post
queries and review existing queries
(2) *A central repository of information related
to the county* [emphasis added]
There appears to be a conflict here about whether the archives or the
county site will be the central repository of historical and genealogical
research information for the county. Or maybe it is just a proposed
change of direction within The USGenWeb Project? Or maybe it means the
archives are for transcriptions of public domain information and the
county pages are for everything else? Personally, I prefer the way the
draft bylaws set things out.
----
<http://www.usgenweb.org/official/bylaws2.html>
E. Copyright Policy Regarding The USGenWeb Project Websites
1. In The USGenWeb Project websites, copyright resides solely
with the creator of the web page(s). Their inclusion within
The USGenWeb Project does not give any irrevocable right
(implied or expressed) to The USGenWeb Project to permanently
use the material.
2. In The USGenWeb Project, copyright to queries (and any
other data submitted to town/township, county, or state
projects by someone other than the website coordinator)
resides with the submitter. The submission of queries (and any
other data as described in the previous sentence) to The
USGenWeb Project implies that The USGenWeb Project has use of
the material until/if such time the submitter requests removal.
3. In The USGenWeb Project, copyright to data contributed to
any of the Special Projects resides with the contributor, who
agrees that The USGenWeb Project has permanent use of the data.
Note: 1. and 3. would appear to contradict each other, since the Special
Projects websites belong to the people who created them, and in 1. their
inclusion within The USGenWeb Project doesn't give permanent use to The
USGenWeb Project (which it couldn't anyhow, since The USGenWeb Project
can't own anything and in 3. there's a big muddle. Copyright doesn't
include permanent control of copyrighted material, so this is not a right
that can be transferred, even if (a) the archives were seeking and
obtaining explicit permissions for permanent use (which, to my knowledge,
they aren't) and (b) The USGenWeb Project had the legal capacity to own
anything, which it doesn't. So 3., though undoubtedly well-intentioned,
would appear to be pure baloney, and 2. should apply also to
contributions to the archives.
-----
On USGENWEB-ALL, there has been a lot of discussion about volunteers'
potential liability for each others' copyright infringement -- that we
could all be sued if one person's Web pages used copyrighted material
without permission. Personally, I'm more nervous about being required to
link to the USGenWeb archives, since many archives files lack proper
notices and permissions.
More from US GenWeb Archives, Adams County (WA), Table of Contents:
<http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/wa/adams/adams.htm>
"All data collected is available to the public free of charge in
perpetuity. At this time we are accepting public domain records of almost
any type relating to genealogical research, and limited copyrighted
records only with written permission of the copyright holder."
Public domain means that anyone can quote from or transcribe census
records, e.g., without having to get permission or pay royalties. While
the records themselves are in the public domain, when someone transcribes
a public record, the transcription belongs to the transcriber who
automatically has copyright of the transcription. Copyright in one's own
work doesn't preclude anyone else's access to or independent
transcription of the same record, if the record is in the public domain.
Now, transcribers can transfer the rights to their transcriptions of
public domain records. They can sell those transcriptions or give them
away, and they can put them in the public domain during the period that
the transcriptions would otherwise be protected by copyright.
Transferring copyright in any of these ways requires an explicit grant in
writing. Any restriction on the rights to copyrighted material, such as
that it may be used only for non-commercial purposes, keeps it out of the
public domain.
But we can't transfer rights we don't have, and one of the rights we
don't have is control of our work in perpetuity. All copyrights
eventually expire. Therefore, we can't give the USGenWeb archives the
right to use our work permanently, but only for the term of our
copyrights' protection.
Files in the archives should (but do not) carry a notice, e.g.,
"Copyright 1998 Susie Q. Volunteer. Used by permission." And explicit
permissions should be obtained for every file in the archives. Implied
consent is not a feature of copyright.
-----
Next, we come to the question of ownership. The USGenWeb Project does
not exist as a legal entity able to own anything, including copyrights
(which are property rights and can be transferred by sale, gift, will,
etc., just like other property). Therefore, no rights can be transferred
to The USGenWeb Project. Rights could only be transferred to
individuals, e.g., the state archives manager or to the national
coordinator of the archives, who would then own the rights personally.
Thus:
(a) The USGenWeb Project can't own anything;
(b) the various archives managers and coordinators can own property, but
do not seek or receive the transfer of copyrights;
(c) copyright is retained by the contributor.
Copyright does not, however, include permanent control of the use of the
work, so permanent use is not a right that can be transferred -- if
rights were being transferred, which they are not. In short, the
archives are *borrowing* copyrighted material, and files submitted to the
archives are there at the pleasure of the copyright owner, regardless of
various (probably indefensible) assertions that once something is in the
archives it can't be removed.
<http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/timetodo.htm>
"13. Once submitted, the data can't be retracted by submitter. (This rule
causes
concern to many potential submitters. The reason for this rule is that the
volunteer file managers spend many hours preparing the files in the proper
format for viewing by all types of computers. We have to discourage
submissions
- retractions - submissions - retractions because of the volume of data
that is
submitted. The USGenWeb Archives are accessible FREE and will remain
FREE, to
researchers. The files within will not be used for any commercial
purposes by the
USGenWeb Project.) Copyright to data contributed to resides with the
contributor, who agrees that the USGenWeb Archives, as a not-for-profit
project, has permanent use of the data. (added by request on June 14,
1998)"
This is essentially no different from saying that, if I lend you a tool
that belongs to me, you are never going to give it back because it's so
much work for you to use it after you've borrowed it.
Then there's this: "The USGenWeb Archives are accessible FREE and will
remain FREE, to researchers." What does this mean? That the archives
are accessible to non-researchers for a fee? If so, who collects the
fees? I think what is meant is: "There are no fees for access to the
archives." (Though, as this page says elsewhere that the rules are
subject to change and, considering the nonentity status of The USGenWeb
Project, this amounts to no more than the personal promise of the current
archives coordinator, which is a nice thing to have, but we need more
formal arrangements for such a big sprawling project.)
By the way, I don't see that there is anything in the proposed bylaws
that will remedy any of these problems.
-----
Now we come to the question of what happens should contributors change
their minds and ask for removal of their files from the archives. The
obvious answer is that the files should be removed without delay or
argument, since without proper permissions and transfer of rights to
somebody capable of owning them, the files are used at the pleasure of
the contributor. As soon as someone asks for removal of a file they've
contributed and removal is refused, the archives are infringing on the
contributor's copyright -- and the owner of every Web page linking to the
infringing archives has *potential* liability for vicarious infringement
of copyright by encouraging "business" and traffic to the infringing
archives. See <http://www.techlaw.com/TextOnly/WhatsNew/copyright.html>
Something else to consider is that using copyrighted material, such
as census transcriptions, without proper permissions and notices is
infringement of copyright. Stating publicly that the archives have the
right to use material permanently (though this is a right that can't be
granted by the copyright holder) *and* files can't be retracted once
submitted, even though transfer of ownership of the file has not been
sought or received, and without proper notices, *in any case*, may well
amount only to open acknowledgment of infringement of copyright.
(See, for instance,
<http://www.techlaw.com/TextOnly/WhatsNew/copyright.html> about the
effects of disclaimers and attribution.)
----
I have contributed but one file to the state archives. When all the
above considerations made me uneasy about the present and future status
of The USGenWeb Project archives, I wrote to Kevin on 14 June and asked
for its immediate removal. I told him what was bothering me and that I
would consider resubmitting it after the status of the archives was
clarified to my satisfaction. He has argued with me, but he has not
answered any of my questions, and (as of 11:50 a.m. today, ten days
later) the file is still online at
<ftp://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/wa/chelan/cemetery/fratcem.txt>.
This file belongs to me; it does not carry a copyright notice or a
permission notice. As of ten days ago, it is being used by the archives
without my permission and over my express request for its removal. You
are all on notice that (if you have the recommended links on your county
pages) you are linked to a site that infringes my copyright. I'm not
going to contribute any more files to the archives until these matters
are sorted out, nor will I encourage anyone else to do so. Furthermore,
if these matters are not addressed responsively and *soon*, I will remove
all my links to the archives.
Joanna Ashmun
--------------------------------------------
Joanna M. Ashmun <jmashmun(a)halcyon.com>
<http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/index.html>
-------------------~%*%~--------------------
Hello list.
I want to remind the list that I have a collection of yearbooks and we
be happy to be yearbook looker-up for your county...I also have yearbook
wants page and a yearbook got/will do lookup.
My collection for the state of Washington is nearing 2000....as in
books NOT as in year 2000
see my index...at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2236
Darilee
Cyndi posted this to Puget Sound list. I am forwarding it to Wagen
Darilee
----------
> From: Cyndi Howells <cyndihow(a)oz.net>
> To: PSRoots-L(a)rootsweb.com
> Subject: Seattle Public Library - New Books list
> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 8:19 AM
>
> Hello all -
>
> I may be repeating something that was already posted here, but
> thought I'd give this a shot anyway since my memory is just about
> useless lately. I'm looking for a way to have a set of post-it
> notes permanently attached to my arm so I don't forget things
> anymore. <g>
>
> I just visited the Seattle Public Library web site (in a quest to
> find THE ideal library web page for genealogy to use in my
> presentation to the ALA this weekend). I see that they have a web
> page online with a list of the new books and microfilm added to the
> genealogy collection and I thought it might interest all of you. Be
> sure to check it out when you have time!
>
> Seattle Public Library New Book List
> http://www.spl.org/collec/geneal/nbl1998.html
>
> Successful surfing,
> Cyndi
>
>
>
>
>
> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
> Cyndi Howells Puyallup, Washington
> PSRoots List Poohbah
> cyndihow(a)oz.net
>
> PSRoots-L Mailing List
> http://www.rootsweb.com/~watpcgs/psroots.htm
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe from the list, send a NEW e-mail
> message to: PSRoots-L-request(a)rootsweb.com
> or PSRoots-D-request(a)rootsweb.com (for digest mode)
> with only one word in the body: subscribe
> or: unsubscribe
I'm not sure what the standards for county pages actually are -- that is,
what's "required" and what's optional. Is there a state page about this?
Or are we trying to go by the national website committee's guidelines?
<http://www.usgenweb.org/volunteers/countypage.html>
What I looked at yesterday: how recently the front page had been
updated; "prominent" display of the WAGenWeb logo and the official
USGenWeb logo (several WA pages have a different USGenWeb logo), and the
list of links that Kevin posted about a month ago -- all on the front
page; and the date of the most recent query posted (and I realize that
most WA counties are sparsely populated and not exactly hotbeds of
genealogical interest). The national standards also want us all to put
copyright notices on our pages.
Joanna
--------------------------------------------
Joanna M. Ashmun <jmashmun(a)halcyon.com>
<http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/index.html>
-------------------~%*%~--------------------
On 21/6/98 at 2:05 PM, Celia Tomlin wrote:
>In some states, there are assistants who spend time checking everyone's
>links. This is not something I am crazy about doing and they bug me a
>bit, but it is IMPORTANT to keep your links active.
>
>If someone wants to volunteer to check all links and write polite notes to
>everyone, including me, I am accepting.
Since I brought this up, I'll volunteer. What happened was that
yesterday morning, I was tweaking my pages and realized that I hardly
ever look at other people's pages and I spent some time seeing what's up
around the state. I ended up looking at every WA county site. Several
counties appear not to have been touched in months -- most spectacularly,
Clallam County *looks* like there's been no activity since last September
and Spokane County *looks* like there's been no activity for just about a
whole year. Only a few counties have all the required links and logos.
Some pages have broken image links (files not uploaded to the server) and
serious HTML errors showing -- and some of these look like they've been
that way for months, as if people don't even look at their own pages
after uploading.
Personally, I enjoy making Web pages and making them work. I know that
keeping track of links is tedious work, but there are various Web sites
that will check your links for you, and so will some HTML page editors.
I *like* HTML, write it by hand, and will be happy to help people with
HTML questions or problems.
Joanna
--------------------------------------------
Joanna M. Ashmun <jmashmun(a)halcyon.com>
<http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/index.html>
-------------------~%*%~--------------------
Joanna has a valid point. You should be checking your links to and from
other counties. The url's on the state page are usually up to date. I am
getting better at being quicker to update anyway.
In some states, there are assistants who spend time checking everyone's
links. This is not something I am crazy about doing and they bug me a
bit, but it is IMPORTANT to keep your links active.
If someone wants to volunteer to check all links and write polite notes to
everyone, including me, I am accepting.
I have tried for months to get a few of you to change the link to USGenWeb
to .org or .net, but apparently you weren't interested in following
through. Fortunately for you, USGenWeb has now regained control of .com
so you don't have to change.
It would be nice if you would make changes when requested as quickly as
possible, i.e. within the week or ten days at max. If you are going to
unavailable for longer than that, drop me a note so I don't hound you.
Granted we have been slow to have 100% of the standards met, but I have
appreciated that so many of you support the system as well as you do. We
all have lives beyond the computer (well, some of your do) and if this
committment becomes to much, talk to me, I am able to help or find
temporary help or find an assistant. I had assistant on 3 counties who
was a great help and when I finally decided if I could accept his help and
he was becoming more enthusiastic and willing to take them on full time, I
actually gave them to him. I now can do more for those counties I am most
interested in.
I do hope that you all will begin to use this list a bit more; hopefully I
won't be bounced. Discussion can help make this a great job. Keep up
your good work and don't take too much else on.
Celia Tomlin
P.S. If you are going to the WSGS conference in Bellingham next weekend,
let me know.
Hi folks,
I was just checking around and noticed that several of the links to
the Chelan County pages are about *15 months* out of date. It would be
really cool if you would update them, so we could have a coordinated
state set-up here.
The correct URL is:
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/wachelan/index.html
Joanna
--------------------------------------------
Joanna M. Ashmun <jmashmun(a)halcyon.com>
<http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/index.html>
-------------------~%*%~--------------------
Well, guess that explains why we don't hear from you! <g>
I have counties in KS and OH, so have been getting some information from
them (although not much in the last week or so).
Alice Allen
dcaallen(a)pacifier.com
-------
US GenWeb Project County Coordinator for the following:
Marshall Co. KS http://skyways.lib.ks.us/kansas/genweb/marshall/
Geauga Co. OH http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohgeauga/geauga.html
Seneca Co. OH http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohseneca/seneca.html
Clark Co. WA http://www.rootsweb.com/~waclark/clark.htm
----------
> From: Celia Tomlin <celitoml(a)kcls.org>
> Hi all,
>
> I have sent 3-4 messages in the last couple of weeks and was beginning to
> think you were all dead.
<snip> If this is the only
> GenWeb list you are on perhaps you should let me know. We have been
> living in our own quiet world and there are possible changes coming down
> the road.
>
> Just aye or nay or only on Wagen-l
>
> Thanks
> Celia Tomlin
>
I subscribe to -ALL. I think if national asks that the CCs be notified
about something...or national changes the announcement page it would be
nice to let the list know.
Extraction NO...I think trying to extract who says what to whom about
what on -ALL would be impossible. There are definite 'sides' but I can't
figure out who is pro what... the flames and the humor are
interchangeable.... I did try to create a chart of who supports what and
it didn't work. All I know is now I only read certain peoples posts...and
use the delete button regularly.
I did post the announcement url's and a schedule to list.
And because of things said on -ALL
1. I went to Skagit Co and made sure that I did link back to the WAstate
site from every page. I also added I'm proud to be a member of statement
2. I went to my yearbook site and have begun the process of creating a
no-frames version. Hopefully I will be able to pass the 'Bobby' test for
handicap accessableness.
3. I belong to the pugetsound mailing list and recently joined the
washington list also.
Darilee
Oh, forgot! Franklin County!
Laura L Schmidt
schmidtm(a)3-cities.com
list maintainer:
Franklin Co WA: WaFrankl-L(a)rootsweb.com
Irish Research: Fianna-L(a)rootsweb.com
SC Genealogy: SC-Genealogy-L(a)rootsweb.com
web page coordinator:
Franklin Co, WA: http://www.rootsweb.com/~wafrankl/franklin.htm
Checking in for Chelan and Adams.
Joanna
--------------------------------------------
Joanna M. Ashmun <jmashmun(a)halcyon.com>
<http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/index.html>
-------------------~%*%~--------------------
Hi Celia,
I subscribe to USGenWeb-All-D(a)RootsWeb.com so I have DEFINITELY not missed
anything, If anyone wants to join that list may I suggest Digest form as
this mail list is REAL active. I think it is real important that all
members of the USGENWEB project know what is going on, but I think it might
"turn them off" to actually subscribe to the above. You will be doing a
great service if you continue to write short abridged versions of the daily
business.
Laura
schmidtm(a)3-cities.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Celia Tomlin <celitoml(a)kcls.org>
If you have missed all the hot discussions and
>want to know what is going on because this is the only GenWeb list you are
>on, let me know. I try to send you only the useful and very interesting
>stuff,
Hi all,
I have sent 3-4 messages in the last couple of weeks and was beginning to
think you were all dead.
However the listmaster suggested that my messages were not going through
because I was not longer listed. In other words I was bounced from my own
list. If that is true, you are reading this as I subscribed myself. Who
said computers made life simple.
The information that I had been sending you concerned the GenWeb Project
Elections and by-laws. If you have missed all the hot discussions and
want to know what is going on because this is the only GenWeb list you are
on, let me know. I try to send you only the useful and very interesting
stuff, but hate to duplicate more than necessary. If this is the only
GenWeb list you are on perhaps you should let me know. We have been
living in our own quiet world and there are possible changes coming down
the road.
Just aye or nay or only on Wagen-l
Thanks
Celia Tomlin
Good morning...
I don't know how long this schedule has been posted..but this is
copied from
http://www.usgenweb.org/official/official.html
Calendar/deadlines for nominations/election, etc.:
June 16, 1998 - nominations end June 20, 1998 - deadline for sending
bios/profiles and optional photo to the Elections committee July 1, 1998 -
deadline for having the bios/profiles and optional photos posted online
July 1, 1998 - voting begins July 31, 1998 - voting ends
<end of copy>
For those who wants to know what's happening on usgenweb-all .. It
would seem that there were less than 10 posts last nite... <I think an all
time low since I've been on...<grin>>
Linda Lewis replied to the following ???.
(OK someone > must have the stats for the great debate over this, how many
CCs are there > and how many individuals are subscribed), .?
I just checked the utility page: (June 16, 12:40 p.m. PDT)
Out of 198 mail mode subscribers and 30 digest subscribers (228 total).
Darilee
And have you figured how many pieces of e-mail you have received from this
group lately? It is unreal! (USGenWeb-all-L) I have changed my
subscription to -D and recommend that to anyone interested in following the
banter.
Laura L Schmidt
schmidtm(a)3-cities.com
list maintainer:
Franklin Co WA: WaFrankl-L(a)rootsweb.com
web page coordinator:
Franklin Co, WA: http://www.rootsweb.com/~wafrankl/franklin.htm
From: Bookstorelady <BOOKSTORELADY(a)prodigy.net>
>Hi. Not knowing how many of you subscribe usgenweb-all-l
>I would suggest you check out
> http://www.ccgnv.net/beembranches/Elections/sc.htm
> After following this list for three weeks...I've figured out...that
>some people would like a more organized group of volunteers. They would
>like us, members of this unorganized group to vote on representatives...
> There are people not interested in being organized...or are so willing
>to be organized that they've jumped the gun.
> Anyway...that's what I've figured out.
>Darilee
>
>
Hi. Not knowing how many of you subscribe usgenweb-all-l
I would suggest you check out
http://www.ccgnv.net/beembranches/Elections/sc.htm
After following this list for three weeks...I've figured out...that
some people would like a more organized group of volunteers. They would
like us, members of this unorganized group to vote on representatives...
There are people not interested in being organized...or are so willing
to be organized that they've jumped the gun.
Anyway...that's what I've figured out.
Darilee