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> Hi Peter,
> I don't know how this will go down with the hierarchy
> but, as
> you say genealogy can be a dead end subject. That is why I find family
> and my One-Name study of so much more interest. In addition there is
> the whole
> area of Local History study.
> I have recently embarked on the Advanced Diploma in Local History
> via the Internet [Oxford University] and am finding it fascinating/really
> interesting/extremely helpful...
> I don't think that Local History is about to die, indeed it is an
> subject, unlike genealogy or family history studies. So, that may be
> where the
> future lies, the 'figures in a landscape' approach.
I would agree!
JUST speak with anyone about family history and their eyes light up
genealogy and pedigee is "boring" to most
I cannot speak from knowledge as to the nineteenth century, but entries in
The Law List were certainly free of charge in its later years of existence.
The idea of it was to provide a comprehensive list to paying customers
rather than charging customers for inclusion. Its accuracy in the 1970s
left something to be desired, though. I should be suprised if a charge
were made at any time.
All the main directories that have replaced it adopt a similar approach
with regard to what they regard as essential details, these being entered
free of charge. In some or all of them, firms are invited to pay for
enhanced entries giving more details about them.
I don't know how this will go down with the hierarchy but, as
you say genealogy can be a dead end subject. That is why I find family history
and my One-Name study of so much more interest. In addition there is the whole
area of Local History study.
I have recently embarked on the Advanced Diploma in Local History Studies,
via the Internet [Oxford University] and am finding it fascinating/really
I don't think that Local History is about to die, indeed it is an academic
subject, unlike genealogy or family history studies. So, that may be where the
future lies, the 'figures in a landscape' approach.
Ian Miller wrote:
> Perhaps we shall see a reduced interest for a couple of generations
> followed by a resurgence after we ourselves become part of "family history"
> but I wonder - am I being pessimistic or realistic?
It is true that genealogy was for a long time a growth industry. My
personal feeling is that it is now beginning to wane - as all things do
eventually. Most of those engaging in family history have done so at a
basic level. They have grabbed every piece of information that they
could find and completed their family jigsaw as best they could. At
times the pieces have needed to be hammered into place, but they got
there in the end. Excitement over, it goes into the cupboard along with
the last excitement of pressing wild flowers. Genealogically they have
sucked the system dry, find that further research is no longer simple,
and lost interest.
This will eventually leave us with the more dedicated researcher, and
those companies that invested vast sums in the genealogical market could
soon start to feel the pinch. Like most I grabbed everything available
in the early years, but I soon discovered that this information was
quickly exhausted, and more in depth work was required. Thus I do not
need to fork out for more and more CDs or the yearly update to the GRD,
since they are highly unlikely to advance my information. For that
matter my continuing subscription to the SOG and the GOONS could be seen
in the same light if I had no interest in genealogy other than my own
The future of genealogy has a further problem of course. Fewer and fewer
people are taking the road of formal marriage. It no longer has so many
advantages and the stigma of 'living in sin' has all but vanished. I
have come across many stable relationships where the couple are
unmarried, but have a number of children. Some may have the father's
surname, others the mother's. This must be guaranteed to confuse any
future research to the point where attempting to draw up a family tree
is near impossible.
My own thoughts on this is that much casual genealogy will stop at
around 2000, which means that by about 2100 it will be a thing of the
past. Unless, of course, it really does become a requirement that an
individual's DNA is registered at birth. If this information became
available to the public, then a simple computer search will will tell us
exactly who begot whom, and such things as birth and marriage indexes
would be a thing of, and for, the past.
Researching Amsden World Wide
Outline History: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~amsden
Amsden Forum: http://www.genforum.com/amsden
Books I have written: http://www.btinternet.com/~amsden
Dealing with a query on devolution of land before 1926 always raises the
fear that one has overlooked a point that no longer exists. However . . .
The will leaves the realty to the deceased's widow for her life only, so
her will is irrelevant. I do not think that "for ever" adds anything to
"and . . . their heirs": it gives the trustees the fee simple. If there is
no provision to cover the possibility that there would be no children
attaining the age of twenty-one years, there was a partial intestacy. If
the land was not subject to any customary tenure, the trustees therefore
held it on the widow's death for the deceased's heir, presumably his eldest
brother or his heir. It is likely that they executed a conveyance to the
heir on the widow's death, but I would not expect to find any public record
of this. It should be with the title documents of at least one of the
properties concerned, if a complete set survives. If there were other
properties that were sold separately, abstracts of the deed should (subject
to survival) be with their title documents.
Can someone help me with the following please?
I've found a will, written in 1843, which contains the following
... I give and devise all my freehold messuages lands tenements tithes
rent charge hereditaments and real estate whatsoever and wheresoever
unto and to the use of my said trustees and executors their heirs and
assigns for ever upon trust to pay the rents and profits therof unto my
said wife for her life for her separate use free from the control and
debts of any and every husband with whom she may intermarry and without
power of anticipation and from and after the decease of my said wife
upon trust for all and every child and children of mine who either in
the lifetime of my said wife or after her decease shall attain the age
or respective ages of twenty one years ....
There were no children and the widow did not remarry. My question
relates to the phrase 'for ever'. After the death of the widow, who was
the only beneficiary, what would happen to the trust, and what records
would be created and are likely to have survived?
David G Jackson
I imagine that if the widow left a will the estate would be distributed
accordingly; if she did not & was intestate it would be distributed to the
descendants of her grandparents (and/or to the descendants of her late husband's
In either case I imagine (with some confidence) it would have had to go to
probate & there would have been probate records.
Regards, Colin Mills
Jeremy Wilkes wrote:
> I fear that Hugh Watkins may be a little over-optimistic in his
> advice. In
> my ignorance of antopodean matters I recognise that Australian local law
> societies may be better-equipped than their English counterparts.
> in England, few enough have a library, let alone a run of
> nineteenth-century Law Lists. The Society has a run, of course, as do
> other English libraries, including that of The Law Society.
> Incidentally, The Law List was not published by The Law Society.
> were responsible for the later editions.
I was definitely busking, but in Copenhagen I met many lawyers working
with international trade and contract law, who for example would appoint
a London lawyer to represent their Danish client in a UK court.
so contacts must have existed
I fear that Hugh Watkins may be a little over-optimistic in his advice. In
my ignorance of antopodean matters I recognise that Australian local law
societies may be better-equipped than their English counterparts. However,
in England, few enough have a library, let alone a run of
nineteenth-century Law Lists. The Society has a run, of course, as do some
other English libraries, including that of The Law Society.
Incidentally, The Law List was not published by The Law Society. Waterlows
were responsible for the later editions.
Jigsaw and maps are great - I had seen a link to the Wentworth idea
before - we get so many researchers from overseas on the County Lists
who do not know their Elberton (in GLS) from their Arscott (in Salop)!
The idea of being able to buy a jigsaw centred on one's favourite
place(s) strikes me as a nice one. If any one knows of a source of a
wooden jigsaw aimed at the family historian with the old counties in the
right place, please let us know! No sign of South Yorkshire, Cumbria,
There is a lovely site called www.lenagames.com where for a one-time
subscription of US$15 you download Jig Make, which allows you to make
jigsaws of any visual you've saved on your computer, family photos,
maps, etc. Any time you set up a jigsaw, you choose the number of
pieces, from 12 to 600 for most. Highly recommended.
> Having attended the FGS (Federation of Genealogical Societies) annual
conference 3-6 Sept 2003 in Orlando this past week, ol' Myrt
> here is just bursting at the seams to tell you about the neat things she's
learned. Couldn't sleep much last night planning upcoming
> #1 AND MOST EXCITING: Paul Starkey told us that the Family History
Library Catalog located online at www.familysearch.org is now
> scheduled to be updated every 3 hours during the work week, a minimum of
once a day. Previously this most up-to-date catalog version
> was accessible only at the reference desk in the Family History Library in
Salt Lake City, Utah.
> This renders totally obsolete the CDs and microfiche versions of the FHL
Catalog found in your local Family History Center.
I was also speaking at the FGS Conference in Orlando - have just got back
today - what has been missed out from what Paul Starkey said is that there
are at present no cataloguers for the British section of the Library - so it
is not being updated at this rate.
Walton on Thames, Surrey, UK.
the straight answer to your question is no.
My observations are based entirely on my own personal experience and as I
pointed out in my original mail I am still an "early" user. Having
satisfied myself that I have met the integrity mark for data found then I
can only comment about what I have found.
I realise that the base data behind 1837online and indeed other physical
data is flawed that is true of modern data collection systems.
The old computing adage still prevails gigo (garbage in garbage out).
Does the Foster book use robust statistical techniques /
> > I remain to be
> > convinced that the error levels are as high as some have suggested.
>You have, of course, /read/ Mike Foster's "A Comedy of Errors"?
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I can no longer afford to be a member of either society, but would list
some pros and cons for debate
superb library service
a MUST JOIN for anyone within one hours transport
if I was a young professional genealogists I would try and live in a
flat between SoG and Myddleton St
website -- useful
listing important holdings and activities
annual fair lectures
Journal -- is stodgy even if of enormous academic excellence and value
but it should include Computers in Genealogy to about one third of its pages
a separate pay extra publication is preaching to the converted.
this list a minority activity when it should be a major line of
communication between memebers
county lists are far better - I rate this in the third class lacking
esprit de corps above surname lists but below surname boards
website -- should list birth briefs and interests for all members
with email and snail mail addresses or a forwarding address (pay
extra?)for the paranoid
(my home address is in the telephone book so I have no hesitation about
putting it here :-
-- needs a mmebers only section to increase the feeling of exclusivity
or for private debate with the committess by a webmail system
this is public debate archived for the whole world to read
Well thought out service by email and snailmail
website:- well designed with useful advice
an excellent members only section
good uptodate data about members interests
very good journal with many technical articles of wide application
absolutely the best list on genealogy, if money was no object I would
rejoin for that alone.
no daily meeting place
web site -- members list designed for an efficient back office
deep web limitations on web crawlers and indexing
very restricted number of courses or meetings
Free tickets for Online Information 2003 & Content Management Europe 2003
2-4 December 2003, Olympia Grand Hall, London UK
I have attended several of these shows part of my personal process of
life long learning -- TRY AND DRAG THE WHOLE COMMITTEE ALONG
CONTENT MANAGEMENT EUROPE
Europe's definitive content management event, located within Online
Information, will be showcasing the leading providers of web content
management and enterprise content management solutions.
Information & Content Management :_
Classification and Taxonomy
Collaboration and Knowledge Management
Content Creation and ePublishing
Intranets and Portals
Who should visit?
- Publishers - owners, managers and creators of content-rich web sites
my personal future as a genealogist ?
here is my shingle as an un-acredited genealogist http://www.genealogi.co.uk
I am taking my seventh ECDL exam today http://www.ecdl.co.uk
As well as taking I try and contribute, I am ADMIN to about 40 minor
boards and lists
I use USENET
I am transcribing Danish 1860 census from online images
over 900 images to download
Drool just drool >>> available Danish census run from 1787 to 1921
the later ones are very detailed with date and parish of birth last
residence and emoployer.
If Lady Lotto blessed me I would donate about a tenth to SoG for online
join a London club (the Savage ?) and take taxis to and from SoG for
about 5 days a month :-
and die 15 years younger
regards to all
Note Lapham36(a)aol.com is hugh_watkins msn com which is currently
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17 messages 144k or 156k ALL VIRUSES to be deleted from headers alone
4k 2 or 3 inch gain guaranteed
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>I realise that the base data behind 1837online and indeed other physical
data is flawed that is true of modern data collection systems.<
Have you used 1837online? It is not 'physical data' as such, but displays
the images of the GRO indexes as found at the Family Record Centre and on
microfilm at local libraries and Mormon Family History Centres. In
developing the site, they scanned the microfilm and where corrections have
been made to the originals and the page reprinted since the microfilm was
made, they negotiate with the ONS to supply these pages and add them to the
images as the problems are identified. In other words, it is as close a
replica of the GRO indexes as it is possible to make and a more exact
replica than the microfilm.
After 1984, it is of course data, having been computerised and there is
indeed scope there for flaws.
>Does the Foster book use robust statistical techniques /<
Borrow it from you local library and read it! It has already been highly
recommended by members of this list.
I would be most grateful for any information concerning Felix CARTER, a
London Solicitor in the 1880's. I believe he lived at Crosby House,
Chigwell ,Essex for a short period at that time. If I have the correct
Felix CARTER he was born c1844 in London (St Clement Danes?). Would SKS be
able to establish his parents names from the above information and any
assistance to research through the Legal Profession or to gain biographical
information, would be most appreciated. It's now a matter of lateral
thinking with the CARTER
family in an effort to connect the right one with the CARTER who came to
Australia and left us a beautiful heritage house.
Robin in Australia
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I would like to pass on details of the following Seminar, which may be of
interest to some of you.
HUGUENOT MILITARY OFFICERS IN IRELAND
During the period 1660 to 1783 a large number of French Protestant
(Huguenot) refugee military officers and their military descendants joined
the armies of Catholic France's European enemies, amongst them England,
Denmark, several German states, Ireland, the Netherlands, Russia, Savoy and
The Huguenot Society of Great Britain and Ireland has commissioned the
compilation of a biographical dictionary of these officers. As part of this
project, the Irish members of the research team are convening a one day
seminar on the Huguenot military officers who fought in Ireland during the
Jacobite/Williamite War 1689-1692 and/or settled in Ireland subsequently as
Since leading Huguenot and Irish military historians are contributing papers
to the seminar, we are pleased to "throw it open" to a wider audience and
expand the round table discussion we had originally anticipated.
Moreover, since we will be welcoming visitors from abroad, it has been
decided also to organise a special seminar dinner on the evening of
Saturday, 18th and a day coach trip to a town inextricably linked with Irish
Huguenot military history - Portarlington, Co. Laois/Offaly - on Sunday,
The seminar will take place in the Gilbert Library, 138-144 Pearse Street,
Dublin 2 on Saturday, 18th October 2003 from 9.30am to 5.00pm (Programme
The Seminar admission will be free of charge but the refreshments and light
luncheon will be at own expense. PLEASE NOTE THAT PRIOR BOOKING BY 26.09.03
IS ESSENTIAL AS PLACES ARE STRICTLY LIMITED
A 5-course seminar dinner (50 Euros per person) will take place in the
prestigious and historic St. Stephen's Green Club, 9 St. Stephen's Green,
Dublin 2 [between Grafton Street and Dawson Street] on Saturday evening at
7.00pm. PLEASE NOTE THAT PRIOR BOOKING BY 26.09.03 IS ESSENTIAL AS PLACES
ARE STRICTLY LIMITED
A day-long seminar coach trip to Portarlington (30 Euros per person) will
take place on Sunday, 19th October 2003. Portarlington is a unique Irish
town, where for a few years in the early 18th century, Huguenot settlers (a
large proportion of whom were pensioned military officers) formed the
majority of the population [see enclosed map from John Stocks Powell's book
"Portarlington", Frenchchurch Press, 1994]. The French Church, now St.
Paul's Church of Ireland church, holds the only extant collection of Irish
Huguenot parochial records. The tour will include attendance [optional] at a
church service in St. Paul's, a viewing of the church records, along with a
tour of the town. PLEASE NOTE THAT PRIOR BOOKING BY 26.09.03 IS ESSENTIAL AS
PLACES ARE STRICTLY LIMITED
Please note that it is possible to book for each event - The Seminar, the
Dinner and the Portarlington Outing separately and independently. If you are
interested in any or all the above events, please email queries to:
vivien.costello(a)german-irish.ie. All remittance must be either an Irish Euro
cheque or Irish Euro bank draft made out to project Treasurer R. Flatman.
"Huguenot Military Officers in Ireland"
Saturday, 18th October 2003 - 9.30am-5.00pm
The Gilbert Library (Dublin City Library & Archive)
138-144 Pearse Street, Dublin 2
09.45-10.00 Dr. Kenneth Ferguson BL., Military History Society of Ireland,
10.00-10.30 Dr. Maire Kennedy, Librarian, Gilbert Library
"Sources for Huguenot Research at the Gilbert Library"
10.30-11.00 Dr. Harman Murtagh, Military History Society of Ireland
"The Huguenot Regiments in Ireland"
11.00-11.30 Tea/Coffee break
11.30-12.00 Vivien Costello, Fellow, Huguenot Society of G.B. & Ireland
"An overview of Huguenot Military Settlers & Settlements in Ireland"
12.00-12.30 Dianne Ressinger, Independent Scholar, USA
"Dumont or du Mont" Interpreting connections in France"
12.30-01.00 Questions on the morning papers
01.00-02.00 Lunch break
02.00-02.30 Dr. Matthew Glozier, University of Western Sydney, Australia
"The Huguenots in the Dutch East India Company" [read by Tony Fuller]
02.30-03.00 Richard Flatman FIGRS, Fellow, Huguenot Society of G.B. &
"Commissions & Campaigns: details gleaned from the service records of
an Irish based family network of Huguenot officers"
03.00-03.30 Tony Fuller, Fellow, Huguenot Society of G.B. & Ireland
"The Delamain family of Ireland, India and Amercia"
03.30-04.00 Tea/coffee break
04.00-04.30 Randolph Vigne, Hon. Editor, Huguenot Society of G.B. & Ireland
"Ligonier in Ireland: thirty year counterpoint to a great military
career" [read by Dr. Kenneth Ferguson]
04.30-05.0 Questions on the afternoon papers
ALTHOUGH THE SEMINAR IS FREE OF CHARGE PRIOR BOOKING IS ESSENTIAL as places
are limited. Please email: vivien.costello(a)german-irish.ie.
> I remain to be
> convinced that the error levels are as high as some have suggested.
You have, of course, /read/ Mike Foster's "A Comedy of Errors"?
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