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In message <002801c32536$d98acd80$0600a8c0@Laptop>
"Caroline Gurney" <caroline.gurney(a)ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know whether the SoG Library has a copy of Douglas' Baronage of
> Scotland, published in 1798?
They certainly have Douglas' Peerage of Scotland of around that date
and a magnificently produced set of volumes they are, too.
> I have recently learned that it contains a Pedigree for the family of
> SMITH or SMYTH of Balharry and I have two ancestral interests in that
James Balfour Paul's "The Scots Peerage" was issued around 1910-1914 as
an updated version on Douglas' earlier tomes; indeed I think that the
Douglas operation had a hand in the laster volume which is published by
David Douglas of Edinburgh. That said, the warning is that the
"Peerage of Scotland" may include information that is not reliable and
which "The Scots Peerage" therefore excluded.
The Scots Peerage is also in the SOG library and further may be obtained
on CDROM from, amongst others, S&N Genealogy.
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim(a)powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
I'm still searching for information concerning one of Melbourne's earliest
Dentists and believe I may have located the area in which his marriage took
place prior to departure in 1852.
Would SKS who has access to HACKNEY records, check if there is a marriage of
Ernest Carter to Harriet Gilks around 1851/2.
Robin in Australia
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As this is within General Registration
in England you can search yourself
The easiest????? way to trace details of English/Welsh
B M & D is by using the General Register Office indexes.
Here is some general information on English/Welsh Registration.
Most large libraries, County Record Offices, Family History Centres
operated by the Church of Latter-day Saints (Mormons),
and research offices operated by some local Family
History Societies in England have indexes to the Registrars returns on
microfiche/film. Also LDS (Mormon) FHC's and many Library Facilities
in other countries including Australia, America & Canada may have access to
These indexes of Births, Marriages and Deaths commencing July 1837
are organised in quarters(3 months) ending in March, June, September
and December, sorted alphabetically by surname.
Each entry gives Surname, forenames, (Age sometimes) Registration
place and two columns giving Folio and page number. (these two are
only of value if you are applying to the GRO Mydleton Place/ Smedly
(By post) for Certificates.
Opinion differs as to the best way to obtain certificates.I prefer
to apply to the local Registrar in the first place (£7.00) with a sae
only going to the GRO if that fails.
I feel that you get a copy of the original this way instead of a
copy of the copy sent to the GRO. Others prefer to apply to the GRO
direct in all cases.
This is quite sketchy if you require more just ask
Vice Chairman, NDFHS
Co-ordinator, NDFHS Research Centre,
Bolbec Hall, Newcastle upon Tyne.
*Why not join our members data input teams converting *
*current transcriptions to our main database. *
" Shroud - 1891 Census - PR Inputting. "
Does anyone know whether the SoG Library has a copy of Douglas' Baronage of
Scotland, published in 1798? I have recently learned that it contains a
Pedigree for the family of SMITH or SMYTH of Balharry and I have two
ancestral interests in that family.
Diana Bouglas wrote:
> On the 1910 US census, I have come across the abbreviation<Pa> in the
> which asks whether the subject is naturalised or alien. In both instances
> where I have seen this, the person was an immigrant from England who had
> arrived within the last couple of years or so. Anyone know what this
Yes. In this column Na = Naturalised citizen; Pa = First papers filed
(declaration of intent); and Al = Alien. See the list of US Census
Just a few words of thanks appear to be in order to all those who made valuable contributions to our knowledge.
The consensus appears to be that individuals described as 'nurse child' on the 1881 census have ages from a few months old to nine or ten years. Some may therefore have been with a wet nurse but others were not. In some areas of the country the host family was quite poor. There is some evidence that well-to-do families sent children away to be looked after. It seems probable that some enumerators, when faced with the presence of a child which did not belong to the parents, decided to record it as a nurse child, but most did not.
Regards to all, David Binns, Tyneside
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I wish to seek information about a direct ancestor in the 1911 census at a
address. I understand I can apply for the information for a fee as I was
for the 1901 census prior to its release.
Can anyone tell me where I write to.
Jill FORSTER in Sydney
Have you used the English computer at the G.R.O. searchroom at Myddelton
Place? I tried on Saturday, without success. There was no member of staff
in the immediate vicinity, it was getting towards closing time and I still
had a chance to get the information from the volumes, so I did not ask what
I was doing wrong at the time. Perhaps someone with experience can tell me
I wanted to find out whether a particular couple had produced any fifth
cousins once removed for me, after the two whom I had noted on a previous
visit. Their name is fairly common, Morgan, so I thought that using the
computer might save time. I therefore entered some details in the births
section of the computer. The surname was easy: Morgan. So was the
mother's maiden name: Caddy. The computer demanded also a year of birth
and a year of registration. Having searched 2000 already, I gave this as
the year of birth, and 2001 as the year of registration, so as to catch any
births towards the end of the year. This still did not satisfy the
machine, which demanded more names unless I wished to carry out a wildcard
or "sounds like" search. I therefore entered an asterisk, but was told
that wildcards were allowed only for surnames. I mused on this a little,
and changed the surname to "Morga?". This it accepted, but it said that
there were over 500 matches, and it displayed only the first 500 of them.
As one would expect, all were for children named Morgan. However, it
seemed odd to me that there should have been so many children born with
Morgan/Caddy parents, given that I was aware of only one such marriage (and
I am aware of most Caddy marriages in England and Wales). In fact, not one
of them had a mother called Caddy, but all their mothers had other names.
What was more, a few sample checks produced dates of registration in the
autumn of 2001, well outside the 42-day period from December 2000.
It seems, therefore, that the computer ignores both the date of birth and
the mother's maiden name. It also seems that it is of little use for a
search of this nature unless the parents' name is uncommon, and in that
case it is not much of a hardship for those of us who can stand up to use
the index volumes.
Am I wrong?
I don't think I have ever seen the "PA", nor do I remember a great deal
about the naturalization process ca 1910, but I believe the first step was
to file a petition, perhaps the PA means petitioning alien. Someone in the
process of becoming a citizen.
I have never found a petition as I believe the various steps could be taken
in any jurisdiction, county, state or federal court, anywhere the person
lived, or moved. I believe they are supposed to be held in the Federal
Court which had jurisdiction over the home at the time of naturalization.
The petitions are the only step in the process that contain biographical
information. If you want to investigate check with an expert- this is just
what I seem to remember. I do remember that it was hard to find the
jurisdictions of Federal Courts.
Hope this vague guess is helpful.
I received today enclosed with some Certificates a copy of Cheshire County
Council Registration - a special edition dated April/May 2003. The
editorial is about the changes to Civil Registration proposed in the White
Paper. Within the news section there is a questionnaire that asks for views
on registering births and deaths. On marriage it seeks views on where and
how. There is a section on new services. Section E asks for preference for
printed/handwritten/photocopied from original; this section also asks
"Given the free or low cost entry to a nationals database of historic
birth, death and marriage entries, would you wish to purchase some form of
Historic records are given as those over 100 years old and "would be
available on line".
Just thought you would like to know.
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On the 1910 US census, I have come across the abbreviation<Pa> in the column
which asks whether the subject is naturalised or alien. In both instances
where I have seen this, the person was an immigrant from England who had
arrived within the last couple of years or so. Anyone know what this means?
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The clicker and his knives are described and illustrated in "The Dictionary
of Leatherworking Tools c.1700-1950" by Ralph Salaman, published by George
Allen and Unwin in1986, ISBN 0-04-621030X.The clicker cuts out the component
parts of the upper. His knife, mainly designed for delicate work, has the
handle in line with the blade. The majority of blades are quite fine , the
cutting edge is slightly concave and terminates in a point.The knife
described by Peter Park is a saddle-maker's half moon knife and is designed
to make long straight cuts. However I am sure that knives are a personal
thing as I have seen a sword scabbard maker who had a saddlers knife on his
bench using a sharpened piece of steel with adhesive tape wrapped around it
as a handle. It worked for him.
While doing a search of the 1901 Census using the 1901 Census Extractor (a
very useful accessory for searching the Census) I did several searches using
the Surname but different other search criteria. Though the searches
same results with the same Person IDs for each family member I noted that
the Page IDs differed for
each search. What is the significance of the Page ID ?
From: Dr Douglas W. Jopling jopling(a)clara.net
I have a family member who joined the Royal Navy in the early 1800s
and was a Midshipman. He drowned at sea after an accident from the
"Raisonable" in 1806 at 18 years of age.
His parents had money and position. Would he have had to pay to enter the
Would there have been an enquiry for such and incident and does anyone
know where I would find information about it?
Jill in Sydney
In an email dated Tue, 20 May 2003 9:55:04 pm GMT, SOG-UK-D-request(a)rootsweb.com included a reply from Peter Rogers:
> A Clicker, usually a Clicker Press Operative, used a fly or hydraulic form
> of press to exert downward pressure(!)on a steel knife that was formed to
> the shape to cut a component part of a shoe--It was and is also used in the
> glove trade and many other industries where it superseded hand cutting
In the shoe trade in the Northampton area, a Clicker was a skilled craftsman - called a 'Clicker' because traditionally it described the sound of his shears cutting leather.
He was responsible for cutting the uppers of shoes from a tanned hide and his aim was to get as many components as possible from the usable parts of the hide. The more he got out, the more profitable he was as an employee and the more likely to keep his job and, as a craftsman, the money was better. But, of course, extra money (or potential loss of employment) were not the main considerations - it was just the sense of pride in his work that made him squeeze as much as he could from the hide. ;-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julia Riley [mailto:email@example.com]
> Having recently read the biography of Jane Austen by Claire Tomalin, this
> subject immediately rang bells...
Fascinating Julia. I've never found nurse-children in their home parish
I'd suggest that the practice was mainly done by those who weren't poor, as
it was rather expensive to do. Reasons such as fresh (!) country air
(bearing in mind the high infant mortality rates in cities then) come to
mind - as does a parallel to today's trend for creches: having one's babies
looked after allows one to get on with a demanding life in a commercial city
or town. Boarding-school may have been the upper classes' version of a
Maybe the limited space in houses cramped into the tiniest corners of
densely populated towns and cities was a factor too - if so, then this might
explain why some children were nursed into their teens, ie. until they were
ready to make their own way in the world rather than go back to their
I asked the same question, when I found a 9 year old 'Nurse Child', (in
Warwickshire), a few years ago in my One Name Study. It appears that
children were sent to another home for 'nursing' - i.e. looking after, which
means from any age between birth and about 15, not just 'wet nursing'.
The reasons could be several-fold, illegitimacy, poverty, or the inability
of the real parents to support that child were frequent, as were the desire
of relatives and friends to have an additional (or first) child for equally
numerous excuses. As with any genealogical event, there is always a reason
that we cannot instantly guess - an outbreak of war, plague, famine, or
other rules, regulations, or whims of those responsible..
The new parents may have been relatives, friends, or just those in need of,
or able to support a child. There may have been a sort of adoption, though
that term is actually quite recent. More likely, the child kept his or her
name, and just grew up with another family.
If a search is made of the 1851 tri-county census CD, there are 38 instances
of the phrase "Nurse Child", with several families having more than one, in
addition to their own children. I even found one instance of nurse children
staying at the home of two 'paupers', which makes it unlikely that they paid
for the children, but perhaps were paid to take care of them.
As far as I know it was not a regional expression, though there is always
the likelihood that Scotland, Ireland and Wales have their own term for
I am sure there are several definitions I have left out, someone may care to
add to these.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Binns" <davidbinns(a)qual-chem-tech.co.uk>
> In the 1881 Census for the area around Moulton, near Northwich, Cheshire,
several children with the same or different surname to the 'head are
recorded as 'nurse child'.
> I have not come across this description before and would be interested to
hear if somebody has a reliable definition.
> Also is this a regional expression since I have not seen it before in
Yorkshire or Staffordshire?
Having recently read the biography of Jane Austen by Claire Tomalin, this
subject immediately rang bells. Jane and all her brothers and sisters were
all put out to nurse a month or so after birth, returning home at around the
age of 18 months. For those who don't know her family background, her
father was the local rector in the village of Steventon in Hampshire, so
this was nothing to do with getting the children out of London or for
reasons of poverty. Indeed the children remained within the village and
were visited frequently by their parents. One can only speculate on the
reasons for sending the children out to be nursed in the Austens' case, but
it demonstrates certainly at that period (late 18th century) that a nurse
child could as well be from a respectable gentry family as from a
In a message dated 20/05/03 19:52:32 GMT Daylight Time, pickard(a)hunimex.com
> Hi David,
> I asked the same question, when I found a 9 year old 'Nurse Child', (in
> Warwickshire), a few years ago in my One Name Study. It appears that
> children were sent to another home for 'nursing' - i.e. looking after,
> means from any age between birth and about 15, not just 'wet nursing'.
This does seem to be the answer.
One of mine was a "Nurse Child" aged about 3 in the 1851 census, living in a
male household with the only female a 10 year old girl - so wet nursing would
have been unlikely.
The child's mother had died giving birth and the father was living in a
Two years later a diary entry by his father recorded that the child had been
removed from the family as he was "being treated not kindly".
I understand RN ships may have men ranked as Volunteer (1st Class),
Volunteer (2nd Class), or Volunteer (3rd Class). Would someone kindly
explain these ranks to me. The person of interest to me was first
appointed as a Volunteer (1st Class) on less pay than an AB Seaman but
rose to the rank of captain and so I assume it is a the early step on
the ladder of officers rankings but why Volunteer as they were paid.
7 East Terrace, South Plympton SA 5038 AUSTRALIA