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As a non-latin scholar, I studied Classical Greek at school
Whose only use in genealogy appears to be undrstanding the
use of X in words such as Christopher and Christ.
In perusing the Baldock parish registers at SoG
one baptismal record had the word: "posta"
after the months name.
It was not obvious what this meant,
possibly: deceased at time of baptism
ie died in child birth.
Any authorative answers gratefully recieved please
The above website address is quite useful. It's the Ontario Genealogical
YOUNG, MARCHANT, and GROVES (Hackney);
BEECHAM, HOUS(E)MAN (Bethnal Green); YOUNG (City of London);
HOUS(E)MAN (Southwark); BETSON (Marylebone, Lambeth);
GROVES and BETSON (Ireland); HOUS(E)MAN (Yorkshire);
NEWSON, MORE, GARNER, BETSON, PEDGRIFT (Suffolk);
RAMSDEN, GAGE, YOUNG and REEVES (Kent)
At the end of my recent contribution on this, I wrongly named the Rt Hon
Banks, bt, etc, who was a Vice President of British Lying-In Hospital
in 1804, as Sir John. The Register clearly shows him as Sir Joseph, of
Apologies, apologies - I really must stop dozing off on these hot
Are there any records of Canadian passengers from England to Canada
1830-1851? Shipping records, exit visas?
I have never been able to find any Canadian records. Are there perhaps some
records there that I have missed? The destination would be Ontario,
departure location unknown.
Help would be appreciated.
Kathy, I do not have very local knowledge, but can offer a couple of
suggestions, subject to correction by other listers.
My modern London atlas lists 10 Spring Groves, 3 of them [Spring Grove,
Spring Grove Crescent, and Spring Grove Road] in the Osterley area,
probably because a neighbouring AREA is also named as Spring Grove, which I
suggest may be where your source refers to. This area is SE of Osterley,
immediately north of Isleworth train station. 'Spring Grove' is in the same
lettering as 'Osterley', so both presumably [today] have similar standing
I'm far from hot on parishes in this area, but suggest either Isleworth,
Hounslow, or Brentford. Perhaps another lister knows this area and can say
a little on them circa 1796. Could Spring Grove then have been a
fashionable new development at the edge of Osterley, on the then main
London road from the west country?
Soho Square is not that far from St George's, Hanover Square, both in Soho,
but parish boundaries there are complex so I'll let someone else make a
definitive statement on this.
I think it unlikely that a the term 'St George' used at Endell St. could
refer to a parish in Exeter - surely no locals would understand its
meaning, and 'Exeter' would have been used instead, or as well. I think you
are correct to consider local parishes, and have probably named all the
likely ones. St George's Hanover Square was a very prominent parish and its
name would be readily recognised by many researchers today. I would
certainly try it, but be warned - there may well have been dozens of
burials each week. Some London parishes might have had dozens a day!
However, Endell Street, being a little south of the British Museum, is also
just south of, or even in, Bloomsbury, so the familiarity of the 'St.
George' ref may indicate that reference is being made to the parish in
which the actual hospital lay, if it is indeed Bloomsbury St George.
Perhaps checking the frequency of 'St George' entries in the Lying-In Hosp
records, might reinforce this guess. Try that parish first, unless another
poster gives better advice.
It could also be said that Endell Street is just to the east of, or in,
Soho. Anyone know which is correct?
Could the two babes have been 'nursed out' to one of the country parishes
surrounding the capital, and been victims of the higher than average death
rate such nursechildren suffered? If so, it might take a lifetime's
research to find them, without documentary clues.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kathy Reynolds (by way of Geoffrey <lists(a)sog.org.uk>)
> Sent: 29 July 2001 18:43
> Can anyone please help determine for me exactly where, and in
> which parish,
> 'Spring Grove', the home or estate of Sir Joseph BANKS, was located? Am I
> correct in believing 'Spring Grove' was at Osterley, Middlesex?
Spring Grove is variously described as being in Osterley, Heston or
Isleworth, all adjacent places in West London in the Domesday Manor of
Isleworth and now in the London Borough of Hounslow.
Quoting from the Encyclopaedia of London, "Three houses called Spring Grove
have occupied the site of the present building in London Road. The first
house was built for Sir John Offley in 1645 and the second was occupied by
Sir Joseph Banks. The third was built in 1892-4 for Andrew Pears, owner of
Pears Soap, and is now part of Hounslow Borough College".
There is a memorial tablet to Sir Joseph in St Leonard's Church in Heston.
Bill Firth, the Yorkshireman in London
Kathy - a search using Google and the words 'Spring Grove" and Middlesex
yielded 872 hits, including a site that described "St. Mary's Church stained
opening sentence begins: "Examples of the stained glass at St. Mary's
Church, Osterley, Middlesex, originally known as St. Mary's, Spring
Hope that gives you one clue, at least...
Camberley, Surrey, UK.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathy Reynolds (by way of Geoffrey <lists(a)sog.org.uk>)"
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 6:42 PM
Subject: [SoG] Re: Spring Grove
> Can anyone please help determine for me exactly where, and in which
> 'Spring Grove', the home or estate of Sir Joseph BANKS, was located? Am I
> correct in believing 'Spring Grove' was at Osterley, Middlesex?
> If so, BANKS had a London home in Soho Square. Would this be in the parish
> of St. Anne, Soho?
> An ancestor's wife was twice a patient at the Endell Street Lying-In
> Hospital, sponsored by Joseph BANKS, (believed to be Sir Joseph BANKS as
> this family were some of the early free settlers to Australia and
> subsequently named a property there, Spring Grove). The first entry in
> the place of settlement given was 'Exeter', and they were indeed
> in Exeter, Devon. The second time in 1798, their place of settlement was
> 'St. George'. Although a child of theirs was baptized at St. George,
> Devon 22 Oct 1793, am I correct that in light of the Settlement Act, 'St
> George' is more likely to refer to a parish in Middlesex?
> I wish to search for the possible burials of these two sons born at the
> Endell Street Lying-In Hospital who did not arrive in Australia.
> they may have died during the voyage to Australia.
> Assuming, as one possibility, that this family was settled in the general
> vicinity of this Hospital since at least 1796, and close enough for Sir
> Joseph BANKS to have known them and been a sponsor, are there other St.
> George's to consider besides Bloomsbury St. George, St. George the Martyr,
> St George Hanover Square, and possibly St George the Martyr, Southwark?
> Thanks in advance for any assistance,
> Kathy Reynolds
Clearly my original enquiry about procedures,
started a useful stream of correspondence.
Although most suggestions only cover how to handle corrections,
and do not adequately cover omiisions.
If a name is omitted from an index, then any researcher is unlikely
to go to the original source , and unlikely to check to see whether
there is a correction in the library database.
Certainly when checking the original sources
of IGI EXTRACTIONS of parish registers and some printed transcripts
I have found additional entries in the register.
So I wonder how often I might find a relevant entry in
a register where I have found no relevant entries in a transcript.
(please note how my orn name has been incorrectly transcribed
by several other correspoindents, just as in the
ROAD parish registers <VBG>)
Can anyone please help determine for me exactly where, and in which parish,
'Spring Grove', the home or estate of Sir Joseph BANKS, was located? Am I
correct in believing 'Spring Grove' was at Osterley, Middlesex?
If so, BANKS had a London home in Soho Square. Would this be in the parish
of St. Anne, Soho?
An ancestor's wife was twice a patient at the Endell Street Lying-In
Hospital, sponsored by Joseph BANKS, (believed to be Sir Joseph BANKS as
this family were some of the early free settlers to Australia and
subsequently named a property there, Spring Grove). The first entry in 1796,
the place of settlement given was 'Exeter', and they were indeed previously
in Exeter, Devon. The second time in 1798, their place of settlement was
'St. George'. Although a child of theirs was baptized at St. George, Exeter,
Devon 22 Oct 1793, am I correct that in light of the Settlement Act, 'St
George' is more likely to refer to a parish in Middlesex?
I wish to search for the possible burials of these two sons born at the
Endell Street Lying-In Hospital who did not arrive in Australia. Obviously,
they may have died during the voyage to Australia.
Assuming, as one possibility, that this family was settled in the general
vicinity of this Hospital since at least 1796, and close enough for Sir
Joseph BANKS to have known them and been a sponsor, are there other St.
George's to consider besides Bloomsbury St. George, St. George the Martyr,
St George Hanover Square, and possibly St George the Martyr, Southwark?
Thanks in advance for any assistance,
Dear CiG Editor,
Thank you for publishing John Dawson's thought-provoking article on the
accuracy of the 1891 census pilot in the March/June 2001 Computers in
Genealogy. At the risk of being controversial may I say that I think he
may have over-reacted in saying that "There must be serious doubts about
the usefulness of a product such as the 1891 Census Pilot of
Norfolk...". I hold no brief for the PRO but I think they have done an
excellent job with the 1891 pilot and the 1901 census given the time and
financial constraints that they had to work within. With the insight of
hindsight we could all have designed and managed the project better, but
let's try to find the best ways of working with what we have got.
I am not doubting the accuracy of the numbers John Dawson has presented,
in fact I think he may have understated them (based subjectively on the
proofreading I have done for them so far), but in complaining about
place name spelling accuracy I think he has missed the following points:
1) The LDS 1881 census index is just as bad if not worse. Based on data
presented by Geoff Riggs from his one name study, I have crudely
estimated that you only have a 50% chance of finding a completely
accurate record transcription in that index, yet we all jumped for joy
when it was released.
2) The PRO have provided a number of wildcard searching tools to help
overcome the spelling problems. For example, one error that was spotted
in proofreading was the surname Smith transcribed as Sinnith. S*th would
3) The great joy of the 1901 census index is that for the first time
users will be able to jump straight from the index to the facsimile of
the original CEB. This is something that we should all be encouraging
everyone to do.
4) The PRO has provided feedback loops that allow users to correct and
update the transcription and has promised that payments for results
obtained from erroneous transcriptions will be credited. (At least they
promised that before the launch on their roadshows, so I hope that
promise will be honoured.)
In summary, it is all too easy to knock a major undertaking like this
for its undoubted index inaccuracies. I would prefer to take the line of
the SoG congratulating the PRO for undertaking so ambitious a project,
encouraging users to submit corrections and to download CEB page
facsimiles, and publishing independent printed/online guides on how to
get the most from the online PRO service. Further I would like to see
the Executive of the SoG making contact with its new Vice President, Liz
Hallam Smith to find ways in which the Society can assist the PRO to
create better indexes next time round. I am not short of ideas in that
> Yes plenty of good ideas about how to list the corrections, but, as far
> I am aware, not a single word about who is to say which version is
You're mistaken, Frank. I quote from my reply of 20 July:
"The validity of any 'correction'... would be up to each researcher to
determine for themselves".
And from Barney Tyrwhitt-Drake's reply of 19 July:
"Each record... would be of a single person's subjective view of what the
correct version should be".
I cannot condone any sort of marking system in the actual items, even
pencilled daggers; if our predecessors have done us a service thus, then
well and good, but if they got it wrong or started doodling then librarians
can only apply so much eraser rubber to a page before it develops holes -
and a boxful of corrections to a non existent source would not be much of a
legacy to leave to those who will call us their predecessors.
But more than this, the idea is impracticable. Fine for books, but has
anyone come across IGI fiche with crossings-out scratched into the
emulsion? If a CD had daggers scratched into it, it would cease to work. If
the LDS and Origins sites included such little symbols, no-one would log on
anymore, they'd be too busy exploring the wonders of the 'dagger file'
No person or authority could declare such a database of submitted
corrections as being 100% error-free, which is what your query in essence
seems to be seeking, Frank. By nature such a tool would comprise a very
wide range of interpretations, with detailed sourcenotes from professional
genealogists one one hand, and parish register entries 'corrected' to agree
with a defective secondary source, on the other, living side by side
awaiting our perusal. All we can and should do is enable the collection of
all these disparate suggestions, for the greater benefit of ourselves and
all future researchers, we and they being the ones who should decide upon
accuracy, item by item.
Perhaps a further field could be included, where each person checking the
sumission could enter a single digit to show how
accurate/relevant/entertaining it was, say out of ten. Thus seeing a line
of 8's and 9's might instil a bit more confidence than seeing a line of
The original proposal, as outlined particularly well by Barney, is still by
far the best solution. If anyone finds an interesting entry in a book, or
on a CD, and wishes to check for submitted corrections, all they'd need to
do is look up the item's SoG Lib Ref in the index.
Good job I'm not a betting man - it's often the no-hopers that romp home!
Lawrence, whose 2xg-grandfather was a commission agent.
>Apologies for not giving some dates. This family lived in Long Crendon,
>Bucks, in the early 19th century. They were needlemakers and moved to
>Redditch, where that industry was centred, in the 1840's.
>I'm curious because one of them, Orpah, married into a Catholic family,
>and her descendants seem to be the only ones who did not follow her
I agree with Caroline Gurney that Susan's ancestors are likely to have
belonged to one of the various nonconformist sects, including Methodists and
Baptists, who were active in the early 19th century. But one can't be sure,
since there are instances of those names in Anglican parish registers.
Lewis's (1842) says about Long Crendon: "There is a place of worship for
Particular Baptists". Could this be the answer? The N.I.P.R. volume for
Bucks. will list the surviving records for this and other churches/chapels
in the vicinity.
Don Steel's N.I.P.R. Volume 2 (Sources for Nonconformist Genealogy and
Family History) is relevant reading.
John Townsend (also from Wokingham)
> The following has been circulated to members of the CFHS who have e-mail addresses published. SoG members may wish to comment.
> - please read
> Sat, 28 Jul 2001 00:42:21 +0100
> "Peter Brooks"
> "CFHS members"
> Re: Cornwall Family History Society database
> I am writing to bring to your attention what I consider to be an
> important Society issue. Nobody has asked me to write this email;
> I have learnt of the following from another Society member, and am
> merely passing on the information for wider consumption.
> The Executive Committee of the Society is about to enter into an
> agreement with a commercial firm, Origins, for the sale of the
> CFHS data online. The Committee have apparently handed over the
> entire Society genealogical database, all the data transcribed by
> many volunteers over many years, without their knowledge or
> Worse still, the agreement would lock the Society in for a ten year
> period, during which time it may not publish its volunteers' data
> electronically or on CD. A charge would be made to an applicant,
> (member or non-member), of £6 (6 UK pounds), and from this the
> Society would collect only around 60 pence. Members would be
> offered one free access in each 3 month period. This decision
> probably cannot be challenged on a legal basis, as apparently
> most of the volunteers have signed away their copyright to the
> The volunteers' work in the transcriptions is the Societys major
> asset. The agreement would be made against the wishes of
> volunteers who have contributed so much. So far several have
> resigned, including the Editor of the Journal. Anyone who has
> visited the headquarters in Truro, or has used the Societys
> services, will know that these volunteers are the lifeblood of the
> So far the Executive Committee have declined to consult in any
> way with the membership of the society, or to discuss the issues
> openly in the Journal. They have, however, just agreed to hold a
> Policy Committee meeting, the first for some considerable time, on
> 20th August. They have asked that ideas and suggestions from
> members reach them by 3rd August. Unfortunately they won't
> agree to making this a public meeting.
> I would urge anybody who feels strongly, as I do, that the Society
> should consult with the membership at the AGM before selling the
> rights to the data (or anyone who has any other views on the
> matter) to write a letter to:
> The Policy Committee
> 5 Victoria Square
> TR1 2RS
> For members in this country, letters please, as emails can get
> lost, mislaid etc. Those abroad may send emails to
> policymeet(a)cornwallfhs.com (copying them to me for good
> Please pass this information on to any member that you know of
> who doesn't have email. More importantly you may wish to
> consider attending the AGM in November to debate this issue (and
> others) further.
> Thank you for your time in reading this, and best wishes to you all,
> in Northumberland, UK
> CFHS 10055
Be aware the W32.sircam.worm@mm virus seems to have reached ancestry.com list. I have 4 virus e-mails in 2 days. It is in the form of an e-mail with a file attachment. E-mail reads "I send you this file in order to have your advice. See you later. Thanks." Under no circumstances open the attachment. Delete the file and the attachment immediately.
John Townsend wrote:
> What would alert searchers to the need to check such a corrections database
> or listing? I imagine most people simply wouldn't bother. Those who don't
> get to the library very often would always feel they had some higher
> priority searches than checking the database routinely - and rightly in my
I agree with Johnon this.
> Do we really need action on this? The only measure which seems to me
> pragmatic is for pencil notes to be made in books with the authority of the
The danger here is that people, once seeing penciled annotations, will start to
add their own unauthorised ones. Not a road I feel we ought to go down.
Researchers should make their own judgement as to the 'correctness' of what they
are looking at. Education is one thing, spoon feeding quite another.
Peter Park. Walton on Thames, Surrey, UK.
... to know something of our ancestors, has always appeared to have been a
desirable thing to me, and if any records had been handed down to me, I should
have considered it as a Vallueable treasure.
Benjamin Shaw, 1826.
In message <200107261643_MC3-DA75-897A(a)compuserve.com>, Frank Hardy
>Yes plenty of good ideas about how to list the corrections, but, as far as
>I am aware, not a single word about who is to say which version is correct.
>It is no good having a long list of corrections, without some guidance to
>those who might use the listing as to the validity of the correction, (or
>even the correction to the correction).
Oh yes it is! If the 'correction' indicates the source from which it is
taken, as I suggested, then it is an excellent instructional exercise
for the reader to determine which is most likely correct. A process that
is described as genealogy I believe.
What would alert searchers to the need to check such a corrections database
or listing? I imagine most people simply wouldn't bother. Those who don't
get to the library very often would always feel they had some higher
priority searches than checking the database routinely - and rightly in my
Do we really need action on this? The only measure which seems to me
pragmatic is for pencil notes to be made in books with the authority of the
I registered the death of my mother today, which (as I now know) has to
be within 5 days of the event. This could well cause problems for some
people because my local office operates 10:00 to 12:00, by appointment
only, with an answering machine to cope with out of hour enquiries. This
meant that I knew only after 10:00 today, that I could be seen at 11:15.
The information was typed directly into a form brought up on a computer
screen. This meant that I could see and check everything as it was
entered, and I was given a draft printout to proof read before the final
version was printed and signed. That and 2 copies cost me UKP 10.50.
My mother was born in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, and of course (as a good
little family historian) I wanted this information documented for the
future. However, the form allows only the country to be entered for a
Prominently displayed on the desk was a printed notice saying that the
certificates were subject to Crown Copyright, and so should not be
photocopied, scanned, filmed, or reproduced in any other medium
including the placing of material on the internet. Any copying of
certificates without consent "will be Considered a breach of Copyright"
I'd hoped that photocopies would be considered sufficient for some
purposes when sorting out her affairs, but I ordered an extra copy, and
hoped this would be sufficient.
Happy Hunting everyone
Helen Williams, W.Sussex, England. Email Barney(a)nevin.demon.co.uk. Researching
Bowle,Bowle-Evans,Cole UK & India. McGillivray,Forgie,Beattie, Scot. & Ontario