Dear all,
Thank you, John, for the helpful clarifications about patronymics. In my family tree,
there is evidence of the persistence of patronymics well into the nineteenth century, in
parts of Cardiganshire, Carmarthenshire and Merionethshire. One instance may provide
evidence for Mary’s suggestion that names like ‘David Howell Llewelyn’ are modified
patronymics. My ancestor Evan Jenkin(s) (1798-1874) (son of an earlier Evan Jenkin) from
Silian in Cardiganshire had several children: the one baptismal record that I have found
from the Anglican church gives the child’s surname simply as ‘Jenkin’ (1820), and the
surname Jenkins was used in later life by some of the children. The baptismal records that
I have found for later children, from the Cilgwyn Dissenting Protestant Chapel, also give
the child’s surname as Jenkin, but the father’s name appears in the longer form of ‘Evan
Evan Jenkin’. In contrast to the baptismal records, entries from that time in the family
Bible refer to the chi!
ldren as ‘Jane Evans’, etc. (sometimes ‘Evanes’). When Evan’s son, yet another Evan,
married in Llanycrwys parish church (CMN) in 1849, his name was given simply as Evan
Evans, and his father’s name was also given as Evan Evans. This branch of the family
subsequently used the surname Evans, but Evan Evans’s eldest son (born 1850) was still
sometimes referred to (including in t=he family Bible) as ‘Daniel Evan Jenkins’.
Best wishes,
Shirley
________________________________________
From: powys-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [powys-bounces(a)rootsweb.com] on behalf of Mary Z
[meredith16b(a)yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: 18 February 2013 17:37
To: powys(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [POWYS] Patronymics in Vaynor? - a post script
Hi Everyone,
This is only an impression, not a thorough study, of about 350 names in the Bishops
Transcripts for St Johns, Brecon from 1720-5.
* There is only one patronymic, John ap John.
* About half the surnames are fixed first names, eg Howell, William, Thomas,
without an added 's'.
* Those with the added 's' like Jones and Williams are far fewer.
* Those incorporating the 'p' of 'ap' into the surname, as in
Powell and Prosser are also represented.
* An interesting form could be a modified patronymic as in David Howell Llewelyn,
Howell David James and Thomas Rees William. There is about a dozen of this form which I
hadn't seen before.
* There are also nicknames recorded: " commonly called Richard Coedllan"
without any surname and the marriage of "Alice Jones commonly called Aly goch"
(Red Aly)
Brecon at that time was one of the larger towns in Wales, open to English influence from
Herefordshire through the Wye valley so there is a sprinkling of English surnames too.
Best wishes,
Mary
________________________________
From: John Ball <john(a)jlb2011.co.uk>
To: powys(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, 18 February 2013, 13:42
Subject: Re: [POWYS] Patronymics in Vaynor? - a post script
Dear Listers,
Further to my previous comment on the demise of patronymics in Wales, I've
found a reasonably authoritative statement on the topic in the "The Welsh
Academy Encyclopaedia of Wales", edited by John Davies et al., University of
Wales Press, Cardiff, 2008.
On page 838, the entry for 'Surnames' includes the following:
"...from the 15th to the 17th century, the patronymic naming system was
replaced by fixed surnames."
the article continues:
"The commonest method was to take the father's baptismal name, and, having
Anglicized the spelling, to make it the fixed surname for the future."
The author of the entry on surnames is not identified, but I see that John
Rowlands is listed as one of the contributors to the encyclopaedia, so maybe
it was he.
The timespan of late 1400s to early 1700s during which patronymics were
phased out matches by own impression based on studying Welsh parish register
entries.
This does not mean, however, that ALL families in All areas of Wales were
using fixed surnames by the end of the period specified above. Exceptions
persisted well into the 19th century.
A thorough study of Vaynor parish register entries would be necessary to
provide a definitive answer to Venita's original question.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Personal Homepage:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk
Images of Wales:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/
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Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society
http://www.blfhs.co.uk/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ball
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 12:50 PM
To: powys(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [POWYS] Patronymics in Vaynor?
Lynne Ingalls wrote:
Venita - If you're talking about the LDS extractions on the IGI, then 1813
was about the year they stopped using patronymics.
==============
Dear Lynne, Venita,
Actually, 1813 was the year from which the LDS stopped assuming patronymics
were the norm. In 1813 parishes begun using a new entry form for registering
baptisms; the new form included a column for surnames.
Apart from a few notable exceptions (e.g. in parts of Caernarfonshire),
patronymics were already becoming uncommon well before 1813. Just look at
the entries in pre-1813 parish marriage registers. The brides and grooms
were generally using perfectly normal surnames such as Jones, Evans (rather
than Evan), Williams (rather than William), Hughes (rather than Hugh), and
so on. They were no longer using the father's given name as a surname.
The mid 19th century marks the point at which most of Wales had abandoned
patronymics, but the decline in use began early in the 17th century.
As regards Vaynor parish in Breconshire, I would expect that in the early
18th century patronymics would still be quite common, but by the end of that
century fixed surnames would have largely superseded patronymics.
The change in naming practices is discussed by Rowlands and Rowlands in all
three of their publications, but unfortunately they are not specific
regarding dates and places.
"Welsh Family History - A Guide to research" FFHS 1998 (2nd edition)
"Second Stages in Researching Welsh Ancestry" FFHS 1999
"The Surnames of Wales" FFHS 1996
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Personal Homepage:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk
Images of Wales:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/
Welsh Family History Archive:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/
Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society
http://www.blfhs.co.uk/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
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