I think the problem with changes in the Welsh language goes back to the days of Edward 1st
when the English ruled the land of Wales and gave everything their version of names and
places etc. What we in Wales have done is to revive the original, and I may say correct
spellings. For instance you won't find Conway anywhere now as it has been changed to
the Welsh spelling of Conwy and quite rightly so. You won't find the county of
Caernavonshire either as it has been spilit iuup into the two ancient Welsh counties of
Conwy and Gwynedd. So, the rule is, if in Wales, please spell it our way and not your own.
________________________________
From: Clive Gardener <clive-gardener(a)tiscali.co.uk>
To: powys(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 17:22
Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14
Hi Helen
Thanks for your reply.
I suppose my frustration at spellings being changed is that when I was 3
years old, or so, I was made to sit down in a chair, with a writing table in
front of me, and write out my surname until I got the spelling right! And
even today other people still seem to make the same mistake that I used to
and was told off for - by writing 'Gardner' instead of 'Gardener'. So,
when
I learn a name I try to be consistent thereafter with the way that I spell
it!
Early family holidays were to Conway, but just try finding a place with this
name on modern maps today! You can't. To make sure that I wasn't
misremembering earlier times I put the word 'Conway' into 'collectables'
on
eBay and, lo and behold, there they are - all the picture postcards with the
original spelling!
Your solution of being faithful to the original quotations seems the best
one. When I refer to the 'Mynydd Llangatwg Cave Mangement (Advisory)
Committee' then I always use the spelling as chosen by the organisation in
the late 1980s, because this is the true name by which it was formed.
However, all the scientific papers and writings about the mountain use the
form that can be found on Ordnance Survey maps until very recently: 'Mynydd
Llangattwg'. When I explained the reason for the difference in the way that
I spell the name in different contexts, to the editor of a magazine, he
missed the point I was making and merely referred to the fact that the
magazine has a preferred house style, which he would use.
I like hearing the correct pronounciation for Welsh names and trying to
pronounce them correctly myself!
Most of the people I've met in South Wales since 1980 seem to be like you in
that they were not brought up to speak Welsh, so the revival of the
language, by making knowledge of it mandatory for being employed in key
positions, must have been quite a shock to many people living and working in
South Wales. One person I know at the National Museum of Wales told me that
the people who were benefitting most were those well trained in the Welsh
language, who can command high fees for translating official documents into
Welsh!
I guess the lasting changes are the ones which people adopt voluntarily,
because they fit and work best.
Best wishes
Clive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder(a)homecall.co.uk>
To: <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14
Hello Clive,
Thanks for your interesting remarks. I am Welsh through and through, apart
from the language which, although my mother was a Welsh speaker, she would
not use Welsh with us children! 'It would hold you back' was the thinking
in
those days. I have tried to make up for it by having Welsh lessons later
in
life, but regret very much that I am not fluent! I agree that it is
probably
best to use the Welsh version in Welsh text, and the more common 'English'
spellings in English text. I did try to use 'Llanofer' throughout in my
book, but realised I was being a bit pedantic, so changed it to
'Llanover',
except in quotations where the Welsh was used. It is such a beautiful
language!
Best wishes,
Helen
-----Original Message-----
From: powys-request(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:00 AM
To: powys(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14
Today's Topics:
1. Re: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 (Clive Gardener)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:27:40 -0000
From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener(a)tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12
To: <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
Message-ID: <3F03B61063EA4B2192FF52E598F89AEA@bkbulhbx>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hi Helen
Thanks for your reply!
I've had a problem with Llangattock when referring to 'Mynydd Llangattwg'
because apparently the 'tt' doesn't exist in grammatically correct Welsh
and
so there was a sudden change to the spelling 'Llangatwg' during the late
1980s. However, I've always felt that names are how you come to know
people
and places and that they don't always align with linguistic purity. There
are places in England with ancient names, the logic for which has long
since
been lost. Say, for example, Folkestone, supposed to have migrated from
Folcanstan and Lyme Regis, from Lim or Lym. Once the name is changed then
so
too does the 'feeling' that goes with it.
I suppose it is quite an ironical fact that the person who championed
Welsh
culture should have her name changed by the Welsh linguists, too!
Along the same lines, 'The Trevil Rail Road Company' should really become
the 'The Trefil Rail Road Company' - except it can't, because the company
no
longer exists and all the historical records use the spelling 'Trevil'!
Perhaps the simplest answer would be to use 'pure Welsh' spellings in
Welsh
texts and 'English' spellings in English texts?
I'm sure this isn't a debate that will end any time soon!
Best regards
Clive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder(a)homecall.co.uk>
To: <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12
> Hello Clive, when I first made my website I was trying to go back to the
> Welsh 'Llanofer' and the logo was made for me. The Llanover family prefer
> to
> use 'Llanover' when writing in English, as that is how Lady Llanover
> spelt
> it! I have given up the struggle to always use 'Llanofer'. Pity really!
>
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:03:53 -0000
> From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder(a)homecall.co.uk>
> Subject: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big Ben)
> To: <POWYS(a)rootsweb.com>
> Message-ID: <1E50479DCEBB446FB5E884782ABEB76F@OwnerPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I have been researching the lives of Lord and Lady Llanover for several
> years and have put much of it online at
>
http://augustaladyllanover.coffeecup.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:24:14 -0000
> From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener(a)tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big
> Ben)
> To: <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
> Message-ID: <5348ACE3E19C452F86689E0D04C07FCF@bkbulhbx>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Just wondering why you use a different spelling for 'Llanover' in your
> e-mail as compared against the website?
>
> Apparently, "The estate has been within the same family since the
> eighteenth
> century . . ." :
http://www.llanover.com/
>
>
>
>
>
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