Hi All,
Thanks for your comments and suggestions.
I am an experienced family history researcher, and have been considered to be a “source
Nazi.” I agree that Wikipedia is not a definitive source, and I try to get at least two
opinions, whether they agree or not, for any data I find regarding the medieval royalty of
the UK. I do not expect to follow a Welsh line down through the generations to my
grandparents who emigrated to America. In fact, I was amazed to discover that Welsh
royalty had married into the Scottish royal lines. I hadn’t expected that! I am aware
that it is difficult, if not impossible, to find a truly trustworthy Welsh royal/noble
genealogy, except, perhaps, for Llywelyn and a few generations of descendants from him.
That leaves about a 500 year gap before the parish records, etc., come into play. I have
already followed that route on my lines as far as records can be found. My near Welsh
ancestors were farmers, coal miners, teachers, military, servants, etc. - the “salt of the
earth,” I’m very pleased to say. No “nobles” there, but very noble Welshmen and
Welshwomen whom I am proud to acknowledge as my ancestors.
I’m am keeping the URLs you have suggested, and I truly appreciate your input! I’ll be
back.
Many thanks!!
Venita
Family History and Other Fascinations
On Jul 22, 2015, at 3:19 AM, Brian Swann
<bps(a)norvic8.force9.co.uk> wrote:
This is a link to the Nature paper to which I referred:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141202/ncomms6631/full/ncomms6631.html
Supplement:
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141202/ncomms6631/full/ncomms6631.html#...
The Supplementary Information in scientific publications can often contain as much useful
information as the paper itself, as it gives more clues as to the methodology used by the
group to generate the paper. However, this part of any publication rarely gets picked up
by science journalists in their headline feature articles.
Quite a number of the team from Leicester University were at the Royal Society Summer
Science Fair in June. Dr. Turi King, whom I have met on several previous occasions and
did the DNA work on King Richard III, was there. I now say a few of us knew Turi before
she became famous. But I had an interesting discussion on a DNA Project being run by
Leicester University on DNA samples coming from Normandy and the Cotentin Peninsula,
targeting Frenchmen with 'Norman' sounding surnames, being run in conjunction with
the University of Caen. This has run into some local problems in France, because of a
perceived racism. The French are very sensitive right now as to what it means to be
considered French, and different degrees of Frenchness in the aftermath of racial events
earlier this year.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/16/hunt-for-viking-dna-among-no...
Also a very interesting discussion with a military weapons and armour specialist, dressed
up in the sort of armour you might expect King Richard III to have worn into the Battle of
Bosworth, and his interpretation of the order of the wounds that Richard III received that
eventually led to him being killed. He would have been well-protected, but had potential
areas of vulnerability that were probably exploited by the foot soldiers during the
battle.
I felt quite sorry for him too. It was the hottest day of the summer in London, with
temperatures outside in the 90s. Not the day to be wearing a suit of armour all day.
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Swann [mailto:bps@norvic8.force9.co.uk]
Sent: 22 July 2015 09:35
To: 'rdafis(a)fsmail.net'; 'Venita'; 'powys(a)rootsweb.com';
'Dyfed Dyfed'
Subject: RE: [Dyfed] Elen ferch Llywelyn, daughter of Llywelyn the Great
Dear Venita
Rhodri has given you a pretty tough time!!
I was guessing from the way you asked the question - that you were from America, as this
tends to be the sort of question that Americans get fascinated by, and most folk in
Britain yawn a bit when they appear.
Having googled you, I see you live in Provo, Utah. At least you are close enough to Salt
Lake City to be potentially very useful. Rhodri will not have investigated that.
These early noble pedigree questions can be very difficult to resolve unambiguously, as
you need a special sort of expertise to resolve them to reach any sort of definite
conclusion, as Rhodri correctly points out.
Most folk, especially Americans, have no real idea of what contemporary 13th century
resources survive in Scotland, Wales or England to start to investigate these sorts of
questions. If you rely on later compilations, you run the risk of falling into all the
pitfalls Rhodri has elegantly outlined.
You may be better going to a Scottish email list. Failing that, I would take a look at
the full paper on King Richard III, which came out in Nature in December 2014, and in
particular all the genealogical information in the Supplement to the main paper.
Supplementary Note 2d there says the following:
The University of Leicester acknowledges the important contributions of David Annal and
Dr Morris Bierbrier, both of whom are independent genealogical experts. The former was
previously Principal Family History Specialist at the Family Records Centre, The National
Archives. The latter is a Fellow of the Society of Genealogists, specialising in royal
lineages.
So that was where the team at Leicester University went when they felt they needed
specialist genealogical expertise on the various relations of King Richard III. I can
tell you that Dr. Maurice Bierbrier has been publishing on (obscure) branches of many
royal families across Europe for many, many years in the Society of Genealogists Journal,
usually as 1-2 page update articles, often dealing with lines before 1400.
Also I always have a high regard for Dr. John Ashdown-Hill who has written extensively on
several women connected by marriage to royalty in this time-period and did much of the
research to find viable mtDNA descent lines from the sisters of King Richard III. Your
question might just appeal to him, or he may know another expert to go to.
So if I was going to tackle this problem, I would approach these gentlemen, and possibly
also Michael Powell Siddons, the former Wales Herald of Arms. I am not sure what
Rhodri's opinion of him will be, but I have found him helpful to me on the 2-3
occasions I have approached him. You will probably have to go through the College of Arms
to get his email address, as he now lives in France. I would hurry up though, as I think
he is now aged about 87.
Realistically, it may also cost you money. These people have real expertise built up
over a lifetime. Some experts give freely of their expertise. Others think that folk
should pay to access it. I cannot speak for any of these gentleman, but that is a caveat.
How you pitch the question is important.
Otherwise I suspect your query will go the way of many such queries. It will end up
somewhere as a definite maybe, because getting the real answer requires real expertise,
and it is more fun and cheaper to speculate.
Trust this helps
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: dyfed-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:dyfed-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of RHODRI
DAFIS via
Sent: 21 July 2015 20:43
To: Venita; powys(a)rootsweb.com; Dyfed Dyfed
Subject: Re: [Dyfed] Elen ferch Llywelyn, daughter of Llywelyn the Great
Venita
First to clarify, my experience is mainly in Pedigrees relating to Dyfed.
I do not claim to be an expert, but most of my research interests are from 1750
backwards. The more I research the more errors I find in Pedigrees and many publications
where the authors have assumed that if a name suited, it must be the right one, although
research in Wills and checking the chronology would have told them it did not work.
I have managed to connect many of my ancestors to various pedigrees, and that is where
the fun begins.
Many are not stable and have missing generations.
Wikipedia should not be taken as a definitive source, and is often wrong. A Guide to
further research - Yes, but not a definitive source.
The earlier the pedigree from which the information has been taken, the more likely it is
to be accurate in my experience.
As far as printed versions or various pedigrees available on line.
Lewis Dwnn's Heraldic Visitations and the Book of Baglan, are more accurate (allowing
for transcription errors) than the Golden Grove Books.
The GGB's appear to have been largely derived from Wills and word of mouth, and the
authors or compliers had no knowledge or access to Lewis Dwnn. The additions are guesses,
and often wrong.
Several Manuscripts are based on the GGB's and repeat the errors.
Alcwyn Carini Evans's Manuscripts are an amalgam from various sources, and as well as
repeating previous errors has introduced others.
20th Century Authors have taken these works as definitive sources.
Publications, like Buckley's Sheriffs of Carmarthenshire relied heavily on Alcwyn
Evans.
Francis Jones Wales Herald Extraordinary (incompetent in my view) was a cataloguer and
simply assumed that all these sources were correct, even though the various publications
in his name often contradict each other. The title Wales Herald has resulted in most
assuming that his "utterances" are gospel, and beyond doubt.
I have no interest in adding to the plethora of false pedigrees on the Internet, and
would expect you to provide a stable pedigree showing your connection (with sources), if
you want a considered response.
In the meantime you could do worse than google Peter Bartrum.
Rhodri
========================================
Message Received: Jul 21 2015, 03:16 AM
From: "Venita via"
To: powys(a)rootsweb.com, "Dyfed Dyfed"
Cc:
Subject: [Dyfed] Elen ferch Llywelyn, daughter of Llywelyn the Great
Hi All, I hope there is someone on this list who is an expert in Medieval Wales, or
someone who knows someone I can contact.
Here’s the thing - Elen is said to be a daughter of Llywelyn the great, born (Elen) about
1230 and died about 1295.
She is said to have married twice, her second husband being Donald MacWilliam of Mar,
Scotland.
Their daughter, Isabella, married Robert the Bruce, King of Scotland. The Bruce’s
birthdate is recorded as 11 July 1274, and Isabella’s is estimated at about 1277. If all
the dates are somewhat accurate, the would make Elen about 47 years old when Isabella was
born, which is not likely!
Also, Elen’s siblings are almost a generation older than she. I’m questioning her
relationship to Llywelyn - it is more likely that she is his granddaughter than his
daughter. Does anyone have any insight on this?
Many thanks in advance!
All comments will be appreciated!
Venita
PS: My source is Wikipedia. Family History and Other Fascinations
venitap.com