Thank you, Megan, for that example. Felo de se was a coroner's verdict
only for suicide while of a sound mind; this was considered a more
serious offence.
I am sorry that in the first post I put the wrong date for Rev Thomas
Price's note in Cwmdu PR: it was in 1842 not 1824. So it was not new
then. Perhaps as a historian he was recording that particular practice.
It was not to last for long. The sanctions in the 1823 Burial of a
Suicide Act were relaxed by further burial acts in 1880 and 1882 but the
stricture that there was to be no church service remained.
On 25/07/2015 08:00, powys-request(a)rootsweb.com wrote:
Today's Topics:
1. Removal of chapel graveyards near Gilwern, Breconshire (John Ball)
2. Re: Burial of a suicide (John Ball)
3. Re: Burial of a suicide (Megan Roberts)
4. Re: Burial of a suicide (Megan Roberts)
5. Photos of: St Caron's Church, Tregaron (CGN); St Mary's
Church, Tregare (MON), St Michael's Church and Zoar Chapel,
Trefeglwys (MGY) (John Ball)
6. Re: Elen ferch Llywelyn, daughter of Llywelyn the Great
(Peter Evans)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 08:35:57 +0100
From: "John Ball" <john(a)jlb2011.co.uk>
Subject: [POWYS] Removal of chapel graveyards near Gilwern,
Breconshire
To: "Powys List" <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
Message-ID: <4B62894FC35A4F29AD5484A30FBBA769@Win7PC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Listers,
I'd like to draw your attention to a discussion topic that's been appearing
on RootsWeb's Glamorgan mailing list over the past few days. It relates to
the fate of a former chapel and its burial yard that is being destroyed as
part of the project to convert the A465 'Heads of the Valleys' trunk road to
dual carriageway.
The remains of ten people, including six children, buried in the graveyard
of Lion Terrace Chapel near Gilwern (Breconshire) will have to be moved to
another burial yard to make way for the road-works.
The construction firm, Costain Ltd, is reported to be eager to hear from
relatives of the ten people buried in the church graveyard.
A full report from Wales OnLine is available at:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/local-news/remains-10-people-including-...
As the chapel and graveyard was situated in Llanelly parish, Breconshire, I
have appended below my own contribution to the topic in case it is of
interest to members of the Powys List.
Since posting my message yesterday, I've heard that two weeks ago only one
wall of the chapel remained. It's likely even that has gone by now.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Powys, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Website:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/
Blog:
http://johnofbrecon.com
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ball via
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 2:43 PM
To: Glamorgan List
Subject: Re: [GLA] Fw: Not Glam but could be of interest
Dear Listers,
I believe the graveyard under threat is that attached to Gilwern Primitive
Methodist Chapel, situated at grid reference SO24281429 on the north side of
the present course of the A465 Heads of the Valleys Road. Google StreetView
provides a recent (2011) image of its forlorn condition, as seen from the
A465.
See:
http://tinyurl.com/nhmzrz4
The South Wales Argus has another photo, showing the eastern end of the
former chapel.
See:
http://tinyurl.com/o2snw6e
Coflein, the online database of the Royal Commission on Ancient and
Historical Monuments of Wales, provides the following description:
"Gilwern Methodist Chapel was built in 1838 in the Vernacular style, with a
gable entry plan and walls of sandstone rubble. By 2001 this chapel stood
disused with the interior gutted and vehicle entrances inserted to the
centre of the main gable-end and right-hand walls. (NPRN 11513)"
See:
http://tinyurl.com/o444q3x
Unfortunately, I've never photographed the chapel or its graveyard. Although
I've driven past it lots of times over a period of 40 years, I've always
assumed it was an old warehouse. I never realised it was once a chapel!
I'll try to get to the site in the next week or two and take some shots
before it's too late. If successful I'll add them to my online 'Welsh
Churches and Chapels Collection' and notify the mailing lists in the usual
way.
Of course, if any of you visits the site before me, I'd be very grateful to
receive copies of your photos as a contribution to my webpages.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Personal Homepage:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk
Images of Wales:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/
Welsh Family History Archive:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/
Blog:
http://johnofbrecon.com
Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society
http://www.blfhs.co.uk/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
Administrator - Powys RootsWeb mailing list
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 10:06:17 +0100
From: "John Ball" <john(a)jlb2011.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [POWYS] Burial of a suicide
To: <Powys(a)rootsweb.com>
Message-ID: <E0CBD8E1533847D4981971495F04E369@Win7PC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Listers,
The term "felo de se" is included in a useful little booklet entitled "A
Latin Glossary for Family and Local Historians", by Janet Morris, published
in 2009 by The Family History Partnership, Bury, Lancs: ISBN
978-1-906280-18-5.
The glossary states, simply, "FELO DE SE - suicide".
I must confess that Mary Zorkoczy's example is the first time I've heard of
this phrase being used in a parish register (or anywhere else for that
matter). The fact that the burial at St Mary's Church, Llanfihangel Cwmdu
took place only one year after the change in the law makes it even more
interesting.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Powys, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Website:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/
Blog:
http://johnofbrecon.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Zorkoczy via
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:06 PM
To: Powys(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [POWYS] Burial of a suicide
In the burial register of St Michael's, Cwmdu, Breconshire one entry in
1824 has this additional note:
/"Felo de se. Buried by the churchwardens and constables between 9 and
12 o'clock at night without service in obedience to the coroner's warrant"/
It was written by Rev. Thomas Price (Carnhuanawc). He was recording that
the burial was in accordance with an 1823 change in the law for the
burial of suicides. This permitted them to be buried in their parish
church yard and forbade their burial on the highway with a stake through
the body. The new law did not allow a burial service; the interment had
to be as Rev Thomas Price described.
Has anyone seen any mention of this change in the law in other parish
registers?
Or any use in parish registers of the term /Felo de se/, a medieval term
which seems to have been used as an euphemism?
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 09:20:19 +0000 (UTC)
From: Megan Roberts <welshladymegan(a)yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [POWYS] Burial of a suicide
To: John Ball <john(a)jlb2011.co.uk>, "Powys(a)rootsweb.com"
<Powys(a)rootsweb.com>, "powys(a)rootsweb.com" <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
Message-ID:
<1550079150.1718840.1437729619375.JavaMail.yahoo(a)mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I have seen "felo de se" used on a mid-19th century death certificate, which
was?issued after a coroner's inquest, and so perhaps in this case as the law was new
the parish priest?chose to use the expression that?was perhaps used by the coroner.? In
other words he may either of been tentative about how the new law should be recorded?
regardsMegan
? From: John Ball via <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
To: Powys(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, 24 July 2015, 10:06
Subject: Re: [POWYS] Burial of a suicide
Dear Listers,
The term "felo de se" is included in a useful little booklet entitled "A
Latin Glossary for Family and Local Historians", by Janet Morris, published
in 2009 by The Family History Partnership, Bury, Lancs: ISBN
978-1-906280-18-5.
The glossary states, simply, "FELO DE SE - suicide".
I must confess that Mary Zorkoczy's example is the first time I've heard of
this phrase being used in a parish register (or anywhere else for that
matter). The fact that the burial at St Mary's Church, Llanfihangel Cwmdu
took place only one year after the change in the law makes it even more
interesting.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Powys, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Website:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/
Blog:
http://johnofbrecon.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Zorkoczy via
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:06 PM
To: Powys(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [POWYS] Burial of a suicide
In the burial register of St Michael's, Cwmdu, Breconshire? one entry in
1824 has this? additional note:
/"Felo de se. Buried by the churchwardens and constables between 9 and
12 o'clock at night without service in obedience to the coroner's warrant"/
It was written by Rev. Thomas Price (Carnhuanawc). He was recording that
the burial was in accordance with an 1823 change in the law for the
burial of suicides. This permitted them to be buried in their parish
church yard and forbade their burial on the highway with a stake through
the body. The new law did not allow a burial service; the interment had
to be as Rev Thomas Price described.
Has anyone seen any? mention of this change in the law in other parish
registers?
Or any use in parish registers of the term /Felo de se/, a medieval term
which seems to have been used as an euphemism?
===================
Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at:
www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the
word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 09:20:19 +0000 (UTC)
From: Megan Roberts <welshladymegan(a)yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [POWYS] Burial of a suicide
To: John Ball <john(a)jlb2011.co.uk>, "Powys(a)rootsweb.com"
<Powys(a)rootsweb.com>, "powys(a)rootsweb.com" <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
Message-ID:
<1550079150.1718840.1437729619375.JavaMail.yahoo(a)mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I have seen "felo de se" used on a mid-19th century death certificate, which
was?issued after a coroner's inquest, and so perhaps in this case as the law was new
the parish priest?chose to use the expression that?was perhaps used by the coroner.? In
other words he may either of been tentative about how the new law should be recorded?
regardsMegan
? From: John Ball via <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
To: Powys(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, 24 July 2015, 10:06
Subject: Re: [POWYS] Burial of a suicide
Dear Listers,
The term "felo de se" is included in a useful little booklet entitled "A
Latin Glossary for Family and Local Historians", by Janet Morris, published
in 2009 by The Family History Partnership, Bury, Lancs: ISBN
978-1-906280-18-5.
The glossary states, simply, "FELO DE SE - suicide".
I must confess that Mary Zorkoczy's example is the first time I've heard of
this phrase being used in a parish register (or anywhere else for that
matter). The fact that the burial at St Mary's Church, Llanfihangel Cwmdu
took place only one year after the change in the law makes it even more
interesting.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Powys, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Website:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/
Blog:
http://johnofbrecon.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Zorkoczy via
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2015 8:06 PM
To: Powys(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [POWYS] Burial of a suicide
In the burial register of St Michael's, Cwmdu, Breconshire? one entry in
1824 has this? additional note:
/"Felo de se. Buried by the churchwardens and constables between 9 and
12 o'clock at night without service in obedience to the coroner's warrant"/
It was written by Rev. Thomas Price (Carnhuanawc). He was recording that
the burial was in accordance with an 1823 change in the law for the
burial of suicides. This permitted them to be buried in their parish
church yard and forbade their burial on the highway with a stake through
the body. The new law did not allow a burial service; the interment had
to be as Rev Thomas Price described.
Has anyone seen any? mention of this change in the law in other parish
registers?
Or any use in parish registers of the term /Felo de se/, a medieval term
which seems to have been used as an euphemism?
===================
Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at:
www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the
word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 15:13:51 +0100
From: "John Ball" <john(a)jlb2011.co.uk>
Subject: [POWYS] Photos of: St Caron's Church, Tregaron (CGN); St
Mary's Church, Tregare (MON), St Michael's Church and Zoar Chapel,
Trefeglwys (MGY)
To: "Powys List" <powys(a)rootsweb.com>, "Glamorgan List"
<Glamorgan(a)rootsweb.com>
Message-ID: <09C5B4B4057A46D1825D53E7B4A631AA@Win7PC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Listers,
I've just added four more subjects to my 'Welsh Churches and Chapels
Collection':
1. St Caron's Church, Tregaron, Cardiganshire
Photography: John Ball.
Go to
www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/churches/tregaron1.htm
2. St Mary's Church, Tregare, Monmouthshire
Photography: Steve Veysey.
Go to
www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/churches/tregare1.htm
3. St Michael's Church, Trefeglwys, Montgomeryshire
Photography: John Ball.
Go to
www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/churches/trefeglwys1.htm
4. Zoar Wesleyan Methodist Chapel, Trefeglwys, Montgomeryshire
Photography: John Ball.
Go to
www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/churches/trefeglwys2.htm
The 'Welsh Churches and Chapels Collection' now features 384 churches and
chapels, with at least twenty-five still in the pipeline.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Personal Homepage:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk
Images of Wales:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/
Welsh Family History Archive:
http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/
Blog:
http://johnofbrecon.com
Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society
http://www.blfhs.co.uk/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
Administrator - Powys RootsWeb mailing list
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 10:52:25 +1000
From: "Peter Evans" <pgevans(a)melbpc.org.au>
Subject: Re: [POWYS] Elen ferch Llywelyn, daughter of Llywelyn the
Great
To: <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
Message-ID: <000f01d0c674$3cb1dde0$b61599a0$(a)melbpc.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Venita,
The NLW has information on their website. See their Dictionary of Welsh Biography.
Try the link
http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/index.html
Regard,
Peter Evans
------------------------------
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POWYS-admin(a)rootsweb.com.
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End of POWYS Digest, Vol 10, Issue 63
*************************************