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Hi Robert
Saw your email about Llandovery birth registrations so I have emailed someone who I am sure will be able to give me the answer to your questions.
...............................David JAMES
Hi David,
Thanks for your help!!! I recieved your other email about poor house records. I have been in and out of the house running errands and haven't had time to research what records might be available to me on the subject.
I hadn't heard from you in awhile and I was wondering how you are feeling?
I have today off so I have alittle more time to do family history. I made a trip to the SLC library a few weeks ago to copy some Devynock records for Hilary W. and plan on making another trip next week to copy some more.
Still snow on the ground here but it is slowly melting.
Robert
________________________________
From: David James <david.james32(a)tiscali.co.uk>
To: powys(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: [POWYS] Birth Registrations Llandulas & Llanwda
Hi Robert
Saw your email about Llandovery birth registrations so I have emailed someone who I am sure will be able to give me the answer to your questions.
...............................David JAMES
===================
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Hello,
I hope someone will be able to help me with a question about birth registrations?
I believe the birth registrations for Llandulas and Llanwrtyd civil parishes were registered in the Llandovery district until 1897 when they went to the Builth district.
My question: If I am looking for a birth that was registered in either the Llandulas or the Llanwrtyd civil parishes before 1897 would Carmarthen be the council to contact OR when those 2 parishes became part of Builth district in 1897 where all of the births that were registered between 1837 and 1897 transferred to Builth and so Powys is the county to contact???
Thanks for all the help...
Robert Price
An interesting note: Nanci Richards, a prominent figure in the restoration
of Welsh Harp music, is buried in the churchyard.
-----Original Message-----
From: powys-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On
Behalf Of John Ball
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 8:04 AM
To: Powys List; Glamorgan List
Subject: [POWYS] Photos of: St Melangell's Church, Pennant Melangell, MGY
Photos of: St Melangell's Church, Pennant Melangell, MGY
Dear Listers,
The latest subject to be added to my 'Welsh Churches and Chapels Collection'
is:
St Melangell's Church, Pennant Melangell, Montgomeryshire (photography by
Howard Evans)
Go to www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/churches/search-fram.htm and scroll down
the index to the Pennant Melangell link.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Website: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/
Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/
Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists Joint Webmaster
- Breconshire Local & Family History Society:
www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wlsblfhs/
===================
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John
Do you know when the monthly Family History Drop-in session at the Brecon
Library will be held in June 2013?
Thank you.
Tim
On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 4:19 AM, John Ball <john(a)jlb2011.co.uk> wrote:
> Dear Listers,
>
> If you plan to be in or near Brecon this coming Saturday morning, why not
> call in at Brecon Library in Ship Street and take advantage of the monthly
> Family History Drop-in session held by the Breconshire Local & Family
> History Society (BLFHS). Free advice on your family history problems is
> available
>
> The BLFHS holds drop-in sessions on the third Saturday of every month
> between 11 am and 12 noon at Brecon Library.
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
> John
> --------------------
> John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK
> E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
> Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
> Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society
> http://www.blfhs.co.uk/
>
> Personal Homepage: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk
> Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/
> Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/
> GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
> ===================
> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
> in the subject and the body of the message
>
Dear Listers,
My attention has been drawn to a new policy statement on the
FamilySearch.org website.
The statement, dated 4 Feb 2013, is headed:
"Policy Change for Patrons Requesting Photocopies From the Family History
Library in Salt Lake City, Utah".
The statement continues:
"All requests for information copied from films, book pages, CDs, marriage,
death or birth certificates, wills and/or deeds, etc. will be copied in
digital format and emailed to patrons in a zipped PDF or JPG file format.
There is no charge for this service if we are able to email to information
to patrons.
Patrons should request copies by emailing their request to
Photoduplication(a)familysearch.org."
The statement then lists all the information that must be included in each
request - see http://tinyurl.com/apde6lz for full details.
There is no indication as to how long such requests take to be processed,
but the LDS appears to be offering an important new free resource for family
historians worldwide.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Personal Homepage: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk
Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/
Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/
Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society
http://www.blfhs.co.uk/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
Dear Listers,
If you plan to be in or near Brecon this coming Saturday morning, why not
call in at Brecon Library in Ship Street and take advantage of the monthly
Family History Drop-in session held by the Breconshire Local & Family
History Society (BLFHS). Free advice on your family history problems is
available
The BLFHS holds drop-in sessions on the third Saturday of every month
between 11 am and 12 noon at Brecon Library.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society
http://www.blfhs.co.uk/
Personal Homepage: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk
Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/
Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
Hi Robert
The procedure you refer to had been repealed before your
great-grandfather's birth, with the introduction of the New Poor Law
in 1834. It was thought to have been liable to abuse, with some
mothers using it to force men into marriage - though many Welsh
people were adamant that this didn't happen in Wales!
After 1834, initially the right of a mother of an illegitimate chid
to obtain support for the child from its father was abolished, but
there was a great deal of resistance to this, as it was seen to be
against natural justice (particularly in Wales). A new system of
affiliation was introduced in 1845, whereby a mother could take her
case to Petty Sessions within 12 months of the birth. If her
evidence was corroborated 'in some material particular', then the man
could be ordered to pay up to five shillings a week for its
maintenance. These cases were often reported in the local papers.
I hope this helps
Anna
At 15:58 07/02/2013, Robert Price wrote:
>Hello All,
>A cold greeting from the USA. My great grandfather was born
>1858-1859 out of wedlock around Llangammarch Wells. From his own
>account I have his birth date and the name of his mother (Elizabeth
>Price...not many of those in the area!!). There is not a birth
>registered in either the Builth or Brecknock district for the birth
>date he says he was born on. He was living with his father and
>grandparents on the 1861 census in Merthyr Cynog. I have searched
>the census records up and down for his mother and have a few possibilities.
>I have read that if a child was born out of wedlock the father could
>be brought before a magistrate by the mother to swear that he was or
>not the father?
>Finding the mother of my great grandfather has been my greatest
>brickwall. Can anyone out there give me any suggestions of any
>other records that might exist??
>Thank You
>Robert Price
>===================
>Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>
>-------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Robert,
I hope your email is not a joke!!
What is his Name ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Price" <rprice84043(a)yahoo.com>
To: <POWYS(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 3:58 PM
Subject: [POWYS] illegitimate births
Hello All,
A cold greeting from the USA. My great grandfather was born 1858-1859 out of
wedlock around Llangammarch Wells. From his own account I have his birth
date and the name of his mother (Elizabeth Price...not many of those in the
area!!). There is not a birth registered in either the Builth or Brecknock
district for the birth date he says he was born on. He was living with his
father and grandparents on the 1861 census in Merthyr Cynog. I have searched
the census records up and down for his mother and have a few possibilities.
I have read that if a child was born out of wedlock the father could be
brought before a magistrate by the mother to swear that he was or not the
father?
Finding the mother of my great grandfather has been my greatest brickwall.
Can anyone out there give me any suggestions of any other records that might
exist??
Thank You
Robert Price
===================
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-------------------------------
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the subject and the body of the message
Hi Robert
Llanwrtyd Wells (1837-97), which is close to Llangammarch Wells, was covered
by the Llandovery registration district, although it was moved to Builth
Wells until 1974 and Powys thereafter. So, I would suggest trying
Llandovery, using the name and specific date you have.
There seems to be a choice of: Daniel, David or George (DEC 1858) or David,
Samuel Marmaduke or William (Mar 1859).
Best regards
Clive Gardener
www.secret-bottletop.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Price" <rprice84043(a)yahoo.com>
To: <POWYS(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2013 3:58 PM
Subject: [POWYS] illegitimate births
Hello All,
A cold greeting from the USA. My great grandfather was born 1858-1859 out of
wedlock around Llangammarch Wells. From his own account I have his birth
date and the name of his mother (Elizabeth Price...not many of those in the
area!!). There is not a birth registered in either the Builth or Brecknock
district for the birth date he says he was born on. He was living with his
father and grandparents on the 1861 census in Merthyr Cynog. I have searched
the census records up and down for his mother and have a few possibilities.
I have read that if a child was born out of wedlock the father could be
brought before a magistrate by the mother to swear that he was or not the
father?
Finding the mother of my great grandfather has been my greatest brickwall.
Can anyone out there give me any suggestions of any other records that might
exist??
Thank You
Robert Price
===================
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-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
the subject and the body of the message
Hello Robert,
Perhaps you could add his name to this sentence please? ;-))
My great grandfather was [-----------------] and was born 1858-1859 out of
wedlock around Llangammarch Wells.
Then we may be able to help you. Keep warm.
Cheers, Jill
-----Original Message-----
From: powys-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On
Behalf Of Robert Price
Sent: 07 February 2013 15:58
To: POWYS(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [POWYS] illegitimate births
Hello All,
A cold greeting from the USA. My great grandfather was born 1858-1859 out of
wedlock around Llangammarch Wells. From his own account I have his birth
date and the name of his mother (Elizabeth Price...not many of those in the
area!!). There is not a birth registered in either the Builth or Brecknock
district for the birth date he says he was born on. He was living with his
father and grandparents on the 1861 census in Merthyr Cynog. I have searched
the census records up and down for his mother and have a few possibilities.
I have read that if a child was born out of wedlock the father could be
brought before a magistrate by the mother to swear that he was or not the
father?
Finding the mother of my great grandfather has been my greatest brickwall.
Can anyone out there give me any suggestions of any other records that
might exist??
Thank You
Robert Price
===================
Hello All,
A cold greeting from the USA. My great grandfather was born 1858-1859 out of wedlock around Llangammarch Wells. From his own account I have his birth date and the name of his mother (Elizabeth Price...not many of those in the area!!). There is not a birth registered in either the Builth or Brecknock district for the birth date he says he was born on. He was living with his father and grandparents on the 1861 census in Merthyr Cynog. I have searched the census records up and down for his mother and have a few possibilities.
I have read that if a child was born out of wedlock the father could be brought before a magistrate by the mother to swear that he was or not the father?
Finding the mother of my great grandfather has been my greatest brickwall. Can anyone out there give me any suggestions of any other records that might exist??
Thank You
Robert Price
Dear Listers,
If you plan to be in or near Hay-on-Wye this coming Saturday morning, why
not call in at the Library in Chancery Lane and take advantage of a Family
History Drop-in session held by the Breconshire Local & Family History
Society (BLFHS) between 10:30am and 12:30am. Free advice on your family
history problems will be available.
Go to http://www.powys.gov.uk/index.php?id=724&L=0 for details of the
library and its location.
If successful, the BLFHS may hold further drop-in sessions at Hay in the
future.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society
http://www.blfhs.co.uk/
Personal Homepage: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk
Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/
Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
===================
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-------------------------------
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POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
the subject and the body of the message
By mistake I traced back to the Clees by tracing the wrong cousin. I had
a list of Clee wills at Hereford, but no longer have that list. You can
consult an index of Hereford wills (though not in that county) from
Chris Potter:
http://www.shropshirefamilyhistory.co.uk/wills.htm
David
On 05/02/13 12:15, richardellis wrote:
> To David Hoskins
>
> Thanks for your interest David - we have previously done some checking
> of the Clee family ( years ago ) who we know moved to Knighton sometime in
> the
> late 19th century. However we could not establish a link to other places,
> although
> we were aware of the Clees in Shropshire and Herefordshire.
>
> It's probably time! to re-check all the possible sources - which are now
> more easily accessible...
>
> I would appreciate any "tips" on possible record offices/archives to check
> out.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Richard
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: powys-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On
> Behalf Of David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy
> Sent: 04 February 2013 9:44 PM
> To: powys(a)rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names
>
> On 04/02/13 19:08, richardellis wrote:
>> Dear Mary
>>
>> I'm interested in your Greenwood family lineage in North Radnorshire.
>>
>> My wife's Great grandmother Adeliza Greenwood was born in Llanbister
>> in the early 19th century, then married a John Clee. They moved to
> Knighton
>> on the border with Shropshire. We have a Greenwood lineage back to 1750
>> here.
>>
>> Any connection?
>
> If it's of any help to you, there are Clees around Clun in Shropshire,
> with may wills at Hereford and at least one in PCC.
>
>
>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: powys-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On
>> Behalf Of Mary Z
>> Sent: 03 February 2013 7:30 PM
>> To: powys(a)rootsweb.com
>> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> If you have still have references to the sources that you mentioned I
> would
>> be very keen to have them. The Newtown section of 1671 Hearth Tax of
>> Montgomeryshire @
>> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/1671_hearth_tax_Newtown.htm shows
>> how many English names were in that hundred then. Amongst them was one of
> my
>> ancestors, Richard Brumnell. Over the watershed in North Radnorshire,
> about
>> the same time, were other of my ancestors: Bage, Ingram and Greenwood. All
>> married into Welsh families and settled. I would like to find out more
> about
>> this clustering of English immigrants.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Mary
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david(a)olyeo.co.uk>
>> To: powys(a)rootsweb.com
>> Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2013, 16:07
>> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names
>>
>> Wrong person.
>>
>> About Trefeglwys. This is based on transcriptions of Murrary Chapman. I
>> forget the name of the books - the Great Sessions ones. I have also read
>> an essay based on these, which goes into where English families were
>> settled in Mont. and one of the main places was Trefwelws. This would
>> have affected the culture and can be seen in it's earlier and more
>> prevalent adoption of patryonomics, compared to neighbouring
>> Llanbrynmair, Penegoes, and Llangurig, a little to the south.
>>
>>
>> On 03/02/13 11:41, Alun Evans wrote:
>>> Dear Venita,
>>> I'd be interested if you have any facts to backup what you said about
>>> Trefeglws in Montgomeryshire.
>>>
>>> Mid-Wales is dominated by the River Severn that flows through all the
> main
>>> towns to Shrewsbury and beyond. In the early 1800's the canal was brought
>> as
>>> far as Newtown (then the "Leeds of Wales") and half a century later the
>>> Railways were built. The Anglicisation of Mid-Wales took place because of
>>> this West-East communication along the waterways followed by the Railway
>> but
>>> not before surely.
>>>
>>> >From my knowledge of the area(and I grew up there) villages as close as
> a
>>> mile off the main waterway retained the language and their Welshness at
>>> least until the second-world war. Wales has had a lot of movement from
>>> England since then and a general dilution of Welshness has taken place
>> just
>>> about everywhere in Wales (especially second homes) that continues to
>> change
>>> the character of so many of our Welsh villages. It goes on unabated I
>> regret
>>> to say.
>>>
>>> Alun Evans
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy" <david(a)olyeo.co.uk>
>>> To: <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote:
>>>>> Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for
>>>>> nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-)
>>>> I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large
>>>> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about
>>>> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled
>>>> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such
>>>> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Venita
>>>>>
>>>>> Family History and Other Fascinations
>>>>> venitap.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Just Picture It - Wales
>>>>> http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy
>>>>> <david(a)olyeo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of
>>>>>> cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out
>> in
>>>>>> different area in different ways.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g.
> Jevan
>>>>>> ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style
>>>>>> surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier.
>>>>>> Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different
>>>>>> places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted
>>>>>> English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish
> of
>>>>>> Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's
>>>>>> forename as a surname, born in 1754.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you
> for
>>>>>> Montgomeryshire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c.
>>>>>> 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The
>>>>>> other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for
>>>>>> some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire,
> English
>>>>>> surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also
>>>>>> more like 1700-1750.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in
>>>>>> the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap
>> LLewellyn,
>>>>>> may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person
>>>>>> could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John
>>>>>> Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800,
>>>>>> from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or
>>>>>> surname. For example
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John Jones, could be John, son of John OR
>>>>>> John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this
>>>>>> reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where
>>>>>> patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Compare:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames
>>>>>> Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames
>>>>>> Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a
>>>>>>> mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's
> surname
>>>>>>> started to wane?
>>>>>>> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more
>> than
>>>>>>> others?
>>>>>>> Thank you.Tomi
>>>>>>> ===================
>>>>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at:
>>>>>>> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>>>>>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>>>>> ===================
>>>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at:
>> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>>>>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>>>> ===================
>>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at:
> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>>>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>> quotes
>>>>> in the subject and the body of the message
>>>> ===================
>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes
>>>> in the subject and the body of the message
>>> ===================
>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>>
>>> -------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
> in
>> the subject and the body of the message
>>
>> ===================
>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
> in
>> the subject and the body of the message
>> ===================
>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
> in
>> the subject and the body of the message
>>
>>
>> ===================
>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
> the subject and the body of the message
>
> ===================
> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
> the subject and the body of the message
>
> ===================
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>
> -------------------------------
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Dear Mary
I'm interested in your Greenwood family lineage in North Radnorshire.
My wife's Great grandmother Adeliza Greenwood was born in Llanbister
in the early 19th century, then married a John Clee. They moved to Knighton
on the border with Shropshire. We have a Greenwood lineage back to 1750
here.
Any connection?
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: powys-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On
Behalf Of Mary Z
Sent: 03 February 2013 7:30 PM
To: powys(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names
Hi David,
If you have still have references to the sources that you mentioned I would
be very keen to have them. The Newtown section of 1671 Hearth Tax of
Montgomeryshire @
http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/1671_hearth_tax_Newtown.htm shows
how many English names were in that hundred then. Amongst them was one of my
ancestors, Richard Brumnell. Over the watershed in North Radnorshire, about
the same time, were other of my ancestors: Bage, Ingram and Greenwood. All
married into Welsh families and settled. I would like to find out more about
this clustering of English immigrants.
Best wishes,
Mary
________________________________
From: David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david(a)olyeo.co.uk>
To: powys(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2013, 16:07
Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names
Wrong person.
About Trefeglwys. This is based on transcriptions of Murrary Chapman. I
forget the name of the books - the Great Sessions ones. I have also read
an essay based on these, which goes into where English families were
settled in Mont. and one of the main places was Trefwelws. This would
have affected the culture and can be seen in it's earlier and more
prevalent adoption of patryonomics, compared to neighbouring
Llanbrynmair, Penegoes, and Llangurig, a little to the south.
On 03/02/13 11:41, Alun Evans wrote:
> Dear Venita,
> I'd be interested if you have any facts to backup what you said about
> Trefeglws in Montgomeryshire.
>
> Mid-Wales is dominated by the River Severn that flows through all the main
> towns to Shrewsbury and beyond. In the early 1800's the canal was brought
as
> far as Newtown (then the "Leeds of Wales") and half a century later the
> Railways were built. The Anglicisation of Mid-Wales took place because of
> this West-East communication along the waterways followed by the Railway
but
> not before surely.
>
> >From my knowledge of the area(and I grew up there) villages as close as a
> mile off the main waterway retained the language and their Welshness at
> least until the second-world war. Wales has had a lot of movement from
> England since then and a general dilution of Welshness has taken place
just
> about everywhere in Wales (especially second homes) that continues to
change
> the character of so many of our Welsh villages. It goes on unabated I
regret
> to say.
>
> Alun Evans
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy" <david(a)olyeo.co.uk>
> To: <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names
>
>
>> On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote:
>>> Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for
>>> nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-)
>> I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D
>>
>>
>> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large
>> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about
>> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled
>> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such
>> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire.
>>
>>
>>> Venita
>>>
>>> Family History and Other Fascinations
>>> venitap.com
>>>
>>> Just Picture It - Wales
>>> http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy
>>> <david(a)olyeo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of
>>>> cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate.
>>>>
>>>> Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out
in
>>>> different area in different ways.
>>>>
>>>> Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan
>>>> ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style
>>>> surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier.
>>>> Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different
>>>> places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted
>>>> English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of
>>>> Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's
>>>> forename as a surname, born in 1754.
>>>>
>>>> I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for
>>>> Montgomeryshire.
>>>>
>>>> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm
>>>>
>>>> For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c.
>>>> 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The
>>>> other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for
>>>> some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English
>>>> surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also
>>>> more like 1700-1750.
>>>>
>>>> Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in
>>>> the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited.
>>>>
>>>> Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap
LLewellyn,
>>>> may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person
>>>> could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John
>>>> Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800,
>>>> from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire.
>>>>
>>>> It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or
>>>> surname. For example
>>>>
>>>> John Jones, could be John, son of John OR
>>>> John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones
>>>>
>>>> Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this
>>>> reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where
>>>> patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use.
>>>>
>>>> Compare:
>>>>
>>>> Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames
>>>> Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames
>>>> Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote:
>>>>> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a
>>>>> mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname
>>>>> started to wane?
>>>>> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more
than
>>>>> others?
>>>>> Thank you.Tomi
>>>>> ===================
>>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at:
>>>>> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>>>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>>> ===================
>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at:
www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>> ===================
>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>>
>>> -------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes
>>> in the subject and the body of the message
>> ===================
>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
>> in the subject and the body of the message
>
> ===================
> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
the subject and the body of the message
===================
Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
the subject and the body of the message
===================
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-------------------------------
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POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
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Hi Linda,
Sorry I didn't say cheerio to you out in the road but my cousin Neville was tooting at Margaret and her husband, who he plays golf with, and then he spotted me. Gradually my place in Beaufort Society is being confirmed. When people know my family and friends I feel really part of the scene.
I've sent you the details of Wednesday meeting ------ we are missing out as you will see by the last sentence re non-members. It's not unreasonable to ask for £1 entry is it? or would our raffle take up suffer then?
All for now,
Eira
________________________________
From: John Ball <john(a)jlb2011.co.uk>
To: Powys List <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, 4 February 2013, 12:07
Subject: [POWYS] "The Brinore (Bryn Oer) Tramroad" - talk in Brecon 2pm Wed 6 Feb 2013
Dear Listers,
The next regular monthly meeting of the Breconshire Local & Family History
Society will be held on Wednesday 6th February, at Brecon Public Library,
Ship Street, Brecon. The meeting will commence at 2 pm.
The main talk, by John Jones, is entitled "The Brinore (Bryn Oer) Tramroad".
The speaker will discuss how this early 19th century horse-drawn railway
influenced the construction of the Brecknock & Abergavenny Canal.
Prior to the main talk, Helen Whyte will give the third in her popular
series of short presentations on local family history resources.
All are welcome. Entry is free for Society members, and £1.00 for
non-members.
Kind regards,
John
------
John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society
http://www.blfhs.co.uk/
Personal Homepage: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/
Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/
Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
===================
Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Dear Listers,
The next regular monthly meeting of the Breconshire Local & Family History
Society will be held on Wednesday 6th February, at Brecon Public Library,
Ship Street, Brecon. The meeting will commence at 2 pm.
The main talk, by John Jones, is entitled "The Brinore (Bryn Oer) Tramroad".
The speaker will discuss how this early 19th century horse-drawn railway
influenced the construction of the Brecknock & Abergavenny Canal.
Prior to the main talk, Helen Whyte will give the third in her popular
series of short presentations on local family history resources.
All are welcome. Entry is free for Society members, and £1.00 for
non-members.
Kind regards,
John
------
John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society
http://www.blfhs.co.uk/
Personal Homepage: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk
Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/
Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
At 08:14 AM 4/02/2013, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy wrote:
>Second Stages of Tracing Welsh
>Ancestry, I think second edition, ed. by John and Sheila Rowlands.
I have to say I have not been thoroughly following this thread, but:
"Second Stages in Researching Welsh History" edited by John & Sheila
Rowlands is now out of print, but second-hand copies are still
available. I have at home an earlier book, which is titled "The
Surnames of Wales," John & Sheila Rowlands, published by the
Federation of Family History Societies 1996, which is an excellent
surname book, showing the distribution of surnames throughout the
various counties of Wales and also giving the derivation of such
surnames. It is still available through Amazon and no doubt other
second-hand distributors.
Best wishes
Graham
Melbourne
Oz
On 03/02/13 19:30, Mary Z wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> If you have still have references to the sources that you mentioned I would be very keen to have them. The Newtown section of 1671 Hearth Tax of Montgomeryshire @ http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/1671_hearth_tax_Newtown.htm
The book was called something like Second Stages of Tracing Welsh
Ancestry, I think second edition, ed. by John and Sheila Rowlands.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david(a)olyeo.co.uk>
> To: powys(a)rootsweb.com
> Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2013, 16:07
> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names
>
> Wrong person.
>
> About Trefeglwys. This is based on transcriptions of Murrary Chapman. I
> forget the name of the books - the Great Sessions ones. I have also read
> an essay based on these, which goes into where English families were
> settled in Mont. and one of the main places was Trefwelws. This would
> have affected the culture and can be seen in it's earlier and more
> prevalent adoption of patryonomics, compared to neighbouring
> Llanbrynmair, Penegoes, and Llangurig, a little to the south.
>
>
> On 03/02/13 11:41, Alun Evans wrote:
>> Dear Venita,
>> I'd be interested if you have any facts to backup what you said about
>> Trefeglws in Montgomeryshire.
>>
>> Mid-Wales is dominated by the River Severn that flows through all the main
>> towns to Shrewsbury and beyond. In the early 1800's the canal was brought as
>> far as Newtown (then the "Leeds of Wales") and half a century later the
>> Railways were built. The Anglicisation of Mid-Wales took place because of
>> this West-East communication along the waterways followed by the Railway but
>> not before surely.
>>
>> >From my knowledge of the area(and I grew up there) villages as close as a
>> mile off the main waterway retained the language and their Welshness at
>> least until the second-world war. Wales has had a lot of movement from
>> England since then and a general dilution of Welshness has taken place just
>> about everywhere in Wales (especially second homes) that continues to change
>> the character of so many of our Welsh villages. It goes on unabated I regret
>> to say.
>>
>> Alun Evans
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy" <david(a)olyeo.co.uk>
>> To: <powys(a)rootsweb.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names
>>
>>
>>> On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote:
>>>> Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for
>>>> nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-)
>>> I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D
>>>
>>>
>>> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large
>>> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about
>>> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled
>>> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such
>>> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Venita
>>>>
>>>> Family History and Other Fascinations
>>>> venitap.com
>>>>
>>>> Just Picture It - Wales
>>>> http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy
>>>> <david(a)olyeo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of
>>>>> cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out in
>>>>> different area in different ways.
>>>>>
>>>>> Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan
>>>>> ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style
>>>>> surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier.
>>>>> Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different
>>>>> places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted
>>>>> English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of
>>>>> Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's
>>>>> forename as a surname, born in 1754.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for
>>>>> Montgomeryshire.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c.
>>>>> 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The
>>>>> other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for
>>>>> some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English
>>>>> surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also
>>>>> more like 1700-1750.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in
>>>>> the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited.
>>>>>
>>>>> Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap LLewellyn,
>>>>> may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person
>>>>> could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John
>>>>> Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800,
>>>>> from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or
>>>>> surname. For example
>>>>>
>>>>> John Jones, could be John, son of John OR
>>>>> John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones
>>>>>
>>>>> Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this
>>>>> reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where
>>>>> patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use.
>>>>>
>>>>> Compare:
>>>>>
>>>>> Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames
>>>>> Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames
>>>>> Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote:
>>>>>> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a
>>>>>> mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname
>>>>>> started to wane?
>>>>>> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than
>>>>>> others?
>>>>>> Thank you.Tomi
>>>>>> ===================
>>>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at:
>>>>>> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>>>>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>>>> ===================
>>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>>>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>>> ===================
>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
>>>> in the subject and the body of the message
>>> ===================
>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>>
>>> -------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>> POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
>>> in the subject and the body of the message
>> ===================
>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> ===================
> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> ===================
> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message