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Try here, looking at item 17 and 18
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletURL=ht...
Patricia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alison Bryan" <alison.bryan(a)gmail.com>
To: <POWYS-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 8:05 PM
Subject: [POWYS] Ship Passenger Lists: UK
> Where would I look for ship passenger lists into the UK, if there's
> such a thing? I'm looking for c.1931, for a British citizen. Would
> this be traceable or not?
>
> Alison
>
>
> ==== POWYS Mailing List ====
> Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society: http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc
>
>
Hi Alison,
http://ist.uwaterloo.ca/~marj/genealogy/ukships.html
Best wishes
Patricia
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alison Bryan" <alison.bryan(a)gmail.com>
To: <POWYS-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 8:05 PM
Subject: [POWYS] Ship Passenger Lists: UK
> Where would I look for ship passenger lists into the UK, if there's
> such a thing? I'm looking for c.1931, for a British citizen. Would
> this be traceable or not?
>
> Alison
>
>
> ==== POWYS Mailing List ====
> Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society: http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc
>
>
Where would I look for ship passenger lists into the UK, if there's
such a thing? I'm looking for c.1931, for a British citizen. Would
this be traceable or not?
Alison
With the most helpful reply from Keith, a member of the list, I
now know that Thomas John Meredith was in Brynmawr, Llangattock Parish,
Breconshire by 1849, some twelve years earlier than known before.
Thomas is listed as baptized 16 September 1849 on the records of
the Calvary (Baptist) Chapel in Brynmawr, Breconshire. Also he is found
on the member records for 1853, 1856, 1859, 1864, and 1870 as found on
Brynmawr web site by Jeff Thomas the Keith mentioned.
His wife Elizabeth Meredith was baptized 31 December 1855 at same
chapel, then listed as a member in 1856, 1859, 1864, and 1870. Her
father Robert Wallis does not appear on the chapel records there.
In 1861, Thomas was a laborer, born in Herefordshire. Elizabeth
was born in Gloucestershire. Her father Robert Wallis was with them and
shown as born near Usk, Monmouthshire. They were at 162 Worcester Street
in Brynmawr, Breconshire.
The 1871 census for Brynmawr, Breconshire shows Thomas, a forge
man, and Elizabeth, his wife, living at 22 Well Street. Her father is no
longer with them.
Thomas died in 1879 at Blaina, Aberystruth district,
Monmouthshire and in 1881 Elizabeth as a widow is at Garn Vach,
Aberystruth Parish, Monmouthshire.
Thomas John Meredith should be at Brynmawr for the 1851 census,
but I have not yet located him. Where are Elizabeth and her father in
1851 and 1841? Cannot find them either. It would help to know where
Elizabeth was in 1851 to try and find their marriage record. It appears
they did not have any children.
Ruth Ann Baker
United States
Hello Hilary
Long delay, but just got round to dealing with emails.
Sorry, but I can't connect with your Williams.
Not unexpected with a name like that.
The top of our Williams line also has the dreaded name EVAN.
Details for him
> 12. 4.1807 PR/Bns At Llangammarch: No 159: Banns of Marriage between
> Evan Williams of the parish of Llanganten,
> Cordwainer &
> Margaret Jones of this parish, spinster
> Published on 3 Sundays : 12.4.1806:
> 19.4.1807: 26.4.1807.
> 8. 5.1807 PR/Mar At Llangammarch: By banns:
> Evan Williams of the parish of Llanganten,
> Cordwainer &
> Margaret Jones of this parish, spinster
> Evan sgd : Margaret (X) : Witn. Morgan
> Jones & Thomas Davies
> 8. 5.1807 PR/Extr By Wooding:
> Mar: Evan Williams (Shoe) & Margaret Jones
> (Troedrhiewqwarel)
> 16. 7.1827 PR/Bap Son Joshua bap at Llanafanfawr;
> S/o Evan & Margaret Williams; Lletherbydyr;
> farmer
> Bef 6.6.1841 Died Evan not included on 1841 census
> Bef 22.10.1842 Dd Per D/cert of WIDOW
Children John (abt 1809), Evan (abt 1812) , Thomas (1816), Mary , Jane
(abt 1826) , William (1822) , & Joshua (1827) my wife's ancestor.
I have kept your details and will write again if I come accross anything
to connect.
Best wishes
Pete
Hilary or Owen Williams wrote:
>Hi Pete,
>
>Have we corresponded briefly before? Anyway, my WILLIAMS of LLANAFAN FAWR
>are as follows,
>
>Thomas Williams married Gwen Evans
>Son David Williams b c1790 had 3 wives/partners viz Elinor Hamer, Lucretia
>Morris and my ancestor Sarah Jones. They lived at 1841 Nhefel, 1851 Parc,
>1861 Parc Mawr 1871 Coed Cnwch 1881 Sarah as widow @ Tycanol.
>Of their numerous children my ancestor was Hannah Williams, who had 2
>illegitimate children and then married Thomas Pugh and had another family.
>My G Grandmother was Hannah's daughter Caroline Williams (father David
>Pritchard), Caroline married Thomas Evans of Lluestnewydd, Llisdinam, BRE.
>They kept the Drovers Arms on Epynt Mountain until its take over by the
>military in 1940.
>
>Hope we have a connection.
>
>Regards Hilary
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter Northing [mailto:petn@slayleigh63.freeserve.co.uk]
>Sent: 13 July 2006 10:35
>To: POWYS-L(a)rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS: BRE Re posting of Surname/Parish Interests
>
>Hi
>
>Williams, Llanafan Fawr.
>
>Which ones ????
>
>Pete
>
>Hilary or Owen Williams wrote:
>
>
>
>>Hi Listers,
>>
>>I thought it was time to re-post my SURNAME & PARISH interests
>>
>>Anyone researching any of the following, please get in touch;
>>
>>Bowen - Cwmdulas, Llanafan Fawr.
>>
>>Davies - Schoolmaster, Battle & Llanddew, Brecon.
>>
>>Davies - Ty'n cwm, Llanfihangel Abergwesyn.
>>
>>Davies - The Mill, Llanwrthwl.
>>Evans - Llysdinam, also Drovers Arms, Epynt.
>>
>>Jones - Llanddewi Abergwesyn & Llanwrtyd
>>Morgans - Llanfihangel Abergwesyn & Llanwrthwl (ancestor of Evans Llysdinam
>>also Hope of Abergwesyn)
>>
>>Price - Penybont isaf, Llanwrtyd.
>>
>>Prothero(e) -Tymawr, Abergwesyn.
>>
>>Pugh - Llanwrthwl. Married into Davies Family of Mill, Llanwrthwl
>>Williams - Llanafan Fawr.
>>Williams - Llandelaelog Fach, Brecon.
>>Winter - Crucadarn.
>>
>>Kind regards to all,
>>Hilary
>>
>>
>>
>>==== POWYS Mailing List ====
>>Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society: http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>==== POWYS Mailing List ====
>GENUKI Pages for Wales: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/
>
>
>
>
>
>==== POWYS Mailing List ====
>Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm
>
>
>
>
>
Alison Bryan <alison.bryan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
As people are interested in the legal position, you need to go back to the
primary Acts.... [etc., etc.]
......And I'm not expecting an answer to this e mail, am just thinking, the
kind of knots my head gets into on a daily basis.
And by the way, protest! Has anyone ever taken direct action or protested
against an issue? I have so much more to say about this.
.... shutting up.
====================
Dear Listers,
I thank Alison for her cogent analysis of the situation, and I thank
everyone else who participated in the discussion. Let's take Alison's
contribution as the final word, and treat the questions she poses as
rhetorical ones - requiring no reply.
Enough has been said on this topic now, so can I please call a halt to the
discussion and suggest that we speedily switch our attention back to a
consideration of our genealogical conundrums.
Many thanks everyone.
Regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Ystalyfera, near Swansea, Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2005.plus.com
John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/
Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/
Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
Dee
The information on the FreeBMD site the result of volunteers transcribing
from the microfiche of the indexes that you will see online on the
1837online site. The FreeBMD records are not complete. Some of the earlier
ones are still being worked on. Some of the fiche the volunteers are
working from are very very difficult to read. This is where you will find
incomplete reference numbers on the FreeBMD site.
The FreeBMD site has a number of useful features. For example you can see
all the other people registered under the same marriage number which may
help decide if a record is yours or not. By clicking on the registration
district you can see which sub-districts come under that area and where the
records are currently held.
If a record is particularly difficult to read, you can sometimes view the
index as used by the volunteers. This way you can see whether you agree
with the volunteer's interpretation.
The best way to use these sites is to find what you want on the FreeBMD
site, then verify it on the 1837online site. Having said this, I have
ordered quite a number of certificates from the information received on the
FreeBMD site and all have been correct.
Wendy, Wodonga, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: huggins huggins [mailto:huggins_huggins@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, 24 July 2006 1:08 PM
To: POWYS-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Q about FreeBmd vs 1837online.com
I'm confused about the difference between these two
sites. I thought I could view/print
birth/marriage/death certs from the 1837online site
but apparently that's not true.
The 1837online site charges for look ups - why bother
paying, though, if the same info is at the FreeBMD
site?
I'd appreciate some help with this...
Thanks,
dee
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As people are interested in the legal position, you need to go back to
the primary Acts. Just because something is claimed on a govt
website, doesn't mean they've interpreted the law correctly. Govt is
just as liable for bad law interpretation as the rest of us, and can
land itself in court.
This is s.163 where Her Majesty is claiming copyright:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_11.htm#mdiv163
which is a specific section of law treating Crown work as a special
case. As its specific, it will make other laws in relation to
copyright non applicable.
What is interesting is 163(4):
"(4) In the case of a work of joint authorship where one or more but
not all of the authors are persons falling within subsection (1), this
section applies only in relation to those authors and the copyright
subsisting by virtue of their contribution to the work."
Which states that copyright remains in the Crown's *contribution*.
What is the Crown's contribution here, and how is it defined? (I have
my own theories, but the point of this e mail, is to encourage people
to think outside the box). Could it be said that the intellectual
information *within* a certificate or will should be retained by your
ancestor's estate (and where they've been dead for 70+ years to be
freely available), or are we relying on the Crown as keeper of
records, without being in such a position this intellectual
information wouldn't be available?
Sections 9 and 10 gives the definition of author, with section 10
focusing on what an author is, and 10(1) talks about collaboration.
It could be argued that the information that made up a birth entry /
certificate is in effect a collaboration between your ancestor and the
Crown:
10.—(1) In this Part a "work of joint authorship" means a work
produced by the collaboration of two or more authors in which the
contribution of each author is not distinct from that of the other
author or authors.
An entry (BMD, wills) would not exist without joint authorship,
however there could be case law around this which could offer more
guidance.
However, s163 states the Crown retains copyright in relation to their
contribution. What exactly is their contribution? (Read these
questions against s.9). How is their contribution distinct from the
intellectual information provided by your ancestor (under joint
authorship)?
I can see how the govt is interpreting this (keeper of register blah),
but am not arguing for them ...
(Disclaimer: I have not researched any Statutory Instruments or case
law in this area - no time - this should not to be taken as legal
advice).
Anyone familiar with legal interpretation, there's always grey areas
in law (how do you think lawyers make money?) is constantly
interpreted by parties *including* the government, which might not
necessarily be right. That includes PRO and NA: how do you know they
have interpreted the law correctly? (Copyright notices on websites,
is just an interpretation of the law). People and bodies liable to
bad interpretation is the reason why we have courts. :-)
Now I have a question, certificates, don't some FHS actually keep
unwanted certificates and and actually SELL a certificate at a reduced
price? Could it be said this is a commercial service, depriving PRO
of selling yet another certificate and is it breach of copyright? Or
is it a seller of a certificate, like a second hand book is sold
(possession is 9/10ths of the law)?
(I am not accusing anyone of anything here, my mind was trained years
ago to ask lots of hypothetical questions, and get tangled up in knots
in the process).
And I'm not expecting an answer to this e mail, am just thinking, the
kind of knots my head gets into on a daily basis.
And by the way, protest! Has anyone ever taken direct action or
protested against an issue? I have so much more to say about this
.... shutting up.
Alison
Dee <huggins_huggins(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
I'm confused about the difference between these two sites. I thought I
could view/print birth/marriage/death certs from the 1837online site but
apparently that's not true.
The 1837online site charges for look ups - why bother paying, though, if the
same info is at the FreeBMD site?
===================
Dear Dee,
You are paying to access a *complete* index. The FreeBMD website offers only
a partial index.
The FreeBMD website offers free access to an *incomplete* (but growing)
database of the General Register Office BMD indexes. These are indexes - not
the full entries from the registers.
The 1837Online and Ancestry.com websites offer, on a pay-to-view or
subscription basis, access to the *complete* General Register Office BMD
indexes. These, too are indexes - not the full entries.
The only legitimate sources of English or Welsh birth, marriage or death
(BMD) certificates are the General Register Office (which holds transcribed
copies of the entries in the original registers) and the local register
offices (which hold the original registers).
BMD certificates cost a minimum of £7.00 and contain the complete entry from
the register.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Ystalyfera, near Swansea, Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2005.plus.com
John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/
Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/
Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
Hi list,
the following entry is listed on the updated "Yesterdays" site, found among Ticknall Derbyshire Removal Orders.
Samuel MOORLEY, Rebecca wife, George, Joseph, Elizabeth 16m, removed from Ticknall Dbys, to Clanrhaiader, Mochnant, Montgomery,Wales. 1775
There are other entries regarding Welsh connections, not many ,but may be of interest.
mike
Visit the Journey pages on;
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~spire/journey/index.htmhttp://homepages.rootsweb.com/~spire/Yesterday/index.htm
They are both indices & neither offers the certificate itself. FreeBMD is
a volunteer run site which is non-profit making. It lets you search on a
particular name and, if the name has been indexed, will give you the
reference to look up the certificate. One of the best uses of the system
that you cant do with the paper indices is with the marriage indexes. On
the FreeBMD service you can look up all entries with the same reference.
If you have a John Smith married on a given date with reference X you can
lookup all other people with the same reference often youll find two
women and another man. This can be a great clue as to whether you have
the right John Smith before you order it.
1837online is a commercial service. They have scanned in every page of
the indexes (with some small omissions). They have not indexed every name
though so its up to you to check each page.
To complicate matters ancestry have come to an arrangement with FreeBMD
and host their indices. They also offer a lookup service on more
contemporary dates.
Once the FreeBMD have indexed everything then 1837online will need to
change their business model as you say, why pay for what is available
for free elsewhere?
Andrew
-------Original Message-------
From: huggins huggins
Subject: [POWYS] Q about FreeBmd vs 1837online.com
Sent: 24 Jul '06 03:08
I'm confused about the difference between these two
sites. I thought I could view/print
birth/marriage/death certs from the 1837online site
but apparently that's not true.
The 1837online site charges for look ups - why bother
paying, though, if the same info is at the FreeBMD
site?
I'd appreciate some help with this...
Thanks,
dee
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==== POWYS Mailing List ====
Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society: [LINK:
http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc] http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc
Thanks to all those who have replied or are discussing this topic. I have studied the N.A. site and find that their very limited information is still rather inadequate. There seems to be a vast difference between what various authorities consider as their 'policy' and what the actual law might be. I was under the impression that 'copyright' lasted 50 years but occasionally 100 (Too simple I guess!!)
N.A. give the impression that one can copy something for research purposes or limited distribution such as education by 'acknowledging' the source. For commercial reasons then permission and a 'fee' may be required. (i.e. Make your own rules !) I feel that one cannot copyright information indefinitely (see Patent law) but the design of the presentation may be different. (i.e. Several different people may write a biography of somebody where the information is similar (and sometimes even copied!) but each book has a copyright.
Thus we have COPYRIGHT perhaps and COPYWRITE no.
I think the internet has or will alter the whole position which must be based on a monetary policy to date. i.e. other people should not make a profit out of my work. I think the whole issue is a mess and should be clarified by law and not by opinion.
Be careful where you seek your information. You require one line from say a parish record. This could be obtained from a good CRO for the cost of a SAE or a small fee. From a booklet or small FHS list perhaps a few pounds but from the supplier of a CD containing possibly several million entries you do not require easily about £40.!! (We pay for presentation)
Hedley
As well as what John said -
There are a master indexes - on paper - held by the GRO. The great tomes which one may consult at the Family Records Centre are copies of these. They list, by class of event (separate indexes for births, marriages, deaths), every individual, in alphabetic order within quarter, giving the reference in the register (registration district, volume, page).
1837online & FreeBMD are very different approaches to finding entries in those indexes.
FreeBMD is a transcription of the information from the indexes into a searchable database. It allows searches by date, county, registration district, first name, type of event, parent or spouse (when on the index entry). It also searches on possible spouse, i.e. where individuals appear on the same page of the register, & allows fuzzy searching on names (phonetic match).
1837online searches copies of the master indexes, & presents the same information, in the same format, as views of the pages of the index. It has the virtue of completeness, & presenting exactly what is in the official index, i.e. no risk of mistranscription.
As a search engine, FreeBMD is immeasurably superior, conceptually. I'd never have found my great grandfathers birth through 1837online, any more than I'd found it looking in the FRC, because he was registered under a very strange variant of his surname I would never have thought of. I found him in FreeBMD by searching on his first name (& variants thereof), registration district, & period. Its chief drawbacks are incompleteness (though it's working on that), & underfunding, leading to it being under-resourced & often overloaded, & the risk of transcription errors - though I've found it very good in that respect.
Paul
>
> From: huggins huggins <huggins_huggins(a)yahoo.com>
> Date: 2006/07/24 Mon AM 03:08:09 GMT
> To: POWYS-L(a)rootsweb.com
> Subject: [POWYS] Q about FreeBmd vs 1837online.com
>
> I'm confused about the difference between these two
> sites. I thought I could view/print
> birth/marriage/death certs from the 1837online site
> but apparently that's not true.
>
> The 1837online site charges for look ups - why bother
> paying, though, if the same info is at the FreeBMD
> site?
>
> I'd appreciate some help with this...
>
>
> Thanks,
> dee
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
> ==== POWYS Mailing List ====
> Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society: http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc
>
>
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Hi John,
As I understand it ,it is ok to supply the info on certificates to others
provided I have copied it , rather than MADE A COPY OF IT.
Am I right or only adding to the confusion?
Jill in Sussex.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Ball" <john(a)jlb2005.plus.com>
To: <POWYS-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [POWYS] BMD Certificates - Copyright issues
> Alison Bryan <alison.bryan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On the subject of certificates. My birth certificate - say I wanted to
> put
> it on the internet (no I don't, but for argument's sake), am I prohibited
> from doing so because the government owns the copyright of *my* birth
> certificate? What about the original death certificate of my grandfather?
> I have the original, not a copy? Is someone telling me it is reasonable
> for
> the government to retain the rights of these?
> =====================
>
> Dear Alison,
>
> I have no legal expertise on these matters; I was merely interpreting the
> copyright situation for BMD certificates, as set out on the Office of
> Public
> Sector Information website.
>
> I think two quite separate issues are being confused:
> 1. Free access to the information in BMD registers.
> 2. Copyright on BMD certificates.
>
> You argue that the information held in the registers should be accessible
> to
> the public. It is *already* accessible to the public, on payment of the
> necessary fee, but a change in the law would be necessary to gain *free*
> unrestricted access to the registers.
> If we want such free access, then we should lobby our parliamentary
> representatives to get the law changed.
>
> You also say you do not agree with copyrighting such information for an
> infinite period.
> As I previously stated, there is no copyright on the information, only on
> the certificates.
>
> BMD certificates are documents certified by an authorised person (e.g. a
> registrar or vicar) to contain a true record of the information entered in
> the register of births, marriages or deaths.
> I have in front of me my father's death certificate, handed to me by the
> registrar on the day we registered the death. At the bottom of the
> certificate is the signed statement that:
> -------------------
> I, Ida Mary Sheppard, Registrar of Births and Deaths for the Sub-district
> of
> Bromsgrove, in the County of Worcester do hereby certify that this is a
> true
> copy of Entry No. 389 in the Register Book of Deaths for the said
> Sub-district, and that such Register Book is now legally in my custody.
> Witness my hand this 3rd day of January, 1962. I. M. Sheppard (signed)
> Deputy Registrar of Births and Deaths.
> -------------------
> It does not matter whether the certificate was issued at the time the
> event
> was registered or whether it was issued a hundred years later - it is
> still
> a certified copy of the information entered in the register.
> The copyright law relates to officially certified copies such as this;
> i.e.
> copyright applies to the certificate - not to the information it contains.
>
> It would be useful if a Lister with the relevant legal expertise could
> contribute to this discussion. Failing that, we should follow up David
> Railton's helpful suggestion about joining the LEGAL-ENGWLS mailing list.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> John
> --------------------
> John Ball, Ystalyfera, near Swansea, Wales, UK
> E-mail: john(a)jlb2005.plus.com
> John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/
> Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/
> Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/
>
> GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
> Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
>
>
> ==== POWYS Mailing List ====
> Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society: http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc
>
>
>
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.1/391 - Release Date: 18/07/2006
>
>
John - thanks for this. I have a legal background thus can research
this if I wanted to, a lot of my questions rhetorical, and am arguing
with myself for the sake of it. I just don't agree with and I simply
think a lot of it is bad policy. Interpretation of the law is not
going to change my beliefs.
Alison
On 23/07/06, John Ball <john(a)jlb2005.plus.com> wrote:
> Alison Bryan <alison.bryan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> On the subject of certificates. My birth certificate - say I wanted to put
> it on the internet (no I don't, but for argument's sake), am I prohibited
> from doing so because the government owns the copyright of *my* birth
> certificate? What about the original death certificate of my grandfather?
> I have the original, not a copy? Is someone telling me it is reasonable for
> the government to retain the rights of these?
> =====================
>
> Dear Alison,
>
> I have no legal expertise on these matters; I was merely interpreting the
> copyright situation for BMD certificates, as set out on the Office of Public
> Sector Information website.
>
> I think two quite separate issues are being confused:
> 1. Free access to the information in BMD registers.
> 2. Copyright on BMD certificates.
>
> You argue that the information held in the registers should be accessible to
> the public. It is *already* accessible to the public, on payment of the
> necessary fee, but a change in the law would be necessary to gain *free*
> unrestricted access to the registers.
> If we want such free access, then we should lobby our parliamentary
> representatives to get the law changed.
>
> You also say you do not agree with copyrighting such information for an
> infinite period.
> As I previously stated, there is no copyright on the information, only on
> the certificates.
>
> BMD certificates are documents certified by an authorised person (e.g. a
> registrar or vicar) to contain a true record of the information entered in
> the register of births, marriages or deaths.
> I have in front of me my father's death certificate, handed to me by the
> registrar on the day we registered the death. At the bottom of the
> certificate is the signed statement that:
> -------------------
> I, Ida Mary Sheppard, Registrar of Births and Deaths for the Sub-district of
> Bromsgrove, in the County of Worcester do hereby certify that this is a true
> copy of Entry No. 389 in the Register Book of Deaths for the said
> Sub-district, and that such Register Book is now legally in my custody.
> Witness my hand this 3rd day of January, 1962. I. M. Sheppard (signed)
> Deputy Registrar of Births and Deaths.
> -------------------
> It does not matter whether the certificate was issued at the time the event
> was registered or whether it was issued a hundred years later - it is still
> a certified copy of the information entered in the register.
> The copyright law relates to officially certified copies such as this; i.e.
> copyright applies to the certificate - not to the information it contains.
>
> It would be useful if a Lister with the relevant legal expertise could
> contribute to this discussion. Failing that, we should follow up David
> Railton's helpful suggestion about joining the LEGAL-ENGWLS mailing list.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> John
> --------------------
> John Ball, Ystalyfera, near Swansea, Wales, UK
> E-mail: john(a)jlb2005.plus.com
> John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/
> Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/
> Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/
>
> GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
> Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
>
>
> ==== POWYS Mailing List ====
> Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society: http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc
>
>
I'm confused about the difference between these two
sites. I thought I could view/print
birth/marriage/death certs from the 1837online site
but apparently that's not true.
The 1837online site charges for look ups - why bother
paying, though, if the same info is at the FreeBMD
site?
I'd appreciate some help with this...
Thanks,
dee
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David
-----Original Message-----
From: Alison Bryan [mailto:alison.bryan@gmail.com]
Sent: 23 July 2006 18:17
To: POWYS-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [POWYS] BMD Certificates - Copyright issues
Am aware your initial extract was in relation to BMD purposes, but
copyright also applies to wills too. Families cannot retain the
original will, as this needs to be presented for probate and for a
grant to be issued. However, the content of this will was originally
thought up by an ancestor, and essentially any creativity should be
retained by the person's estate. How has the state suddenly got a
vested and monetary interest in something the just administered but
did not create?
On the subject of certificates. My birth certificate - say I wanted
to put it on the internet (no I don't, but for argument's sake), am I
prohibited from doing so because the government owns the copyright of
*my* birth certificate? What about the original death certificate of
my grandfather? I have the original, not a copy? Is someone telling
me it is reasonable for the government to retain the rights of these?
How is BMD any different from say other personal official documents,
such as passports, tax returns etc, which essentially is personal
information. What if I wanted to scan an old passport, and say put it
on a website? (Again I don't, but the passport belongs to me).
The information you supply within a certificate contains proprietary
rights where it could essentially be argued belongs to the families
concerned: they picked the name and supplied other particulars.
Whilst the government holds this information, it should be public
access, and I personally do not agree with copyrighting such
information for an infinite period where it is free at the point of
access (commercial purposes are different). How is information put on
the internet any different from free access afforded at public
libraries (if following the free access to all argument)?
Alison
On 23/07/06, John Ball <john(a)jlb2005.plus.com> wrote:
> Alison Bryan <alison.bryan(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I couldn't agree [more] Margaret, and quite frankly I will ignore and am
> happy to publically state this. Publication on my part is a case of stuff
> you, and point of protest. Its the same for certificates, if its my
> grandparents, or other direct ancestors, what right has the government got
> to claim copyright over indefinitely? Money perhaps?
> ===================
>
> Dear Alison and Margaret,
>
> The copyright information I quoted relates to BMD certificates issued by a
> local register office or the General Register Office. It is not relevant
to
> wills. The information contained in a BMD certificate is, of course, not
> subject to copyright.
>
> It seems reasonable to me that the body which issues a certificate should
> retain copyright on that certificate. Government policy is to authorise
> copying of a certificate if you wish to make a copy or publish a copy for
> your own personal genealogical research purposes.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> John
> --------------------
> John Ball, Ystalyfera, near Swansea, Wales, UK
> E-mail: john(a)jlb2005.plus.com
> John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/
> Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/
> Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/
>
> GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
> Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
>
>
> ==== POWYS Mailing List ====
> Powys Family History Society: http://www.rootsweb.com/~wlspfhs/
>
>
==== POWYS Mailing List ====
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