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And Arlene,
In those days Liverpool was THE port. Cardiff was much smaller.
Liverpool always seemed to me to be a 'people' port whereas Cardiff
was a 'goods' port.
This is only surmise
H
Re: Official flag/seal of Montgomeryshire
Dear Bruce Silverstein
An interesting discussion on the official seal of the Montgomeryshire
County Council in included in volume XXIV of the Montgomeryshire
Collections of the Powysland club (1890). The seal is reproduced on page
10. It is also mentioned on page 364 of the same volume (but in part 2)
and I cannot put my hands on my copy of the second part. The seal was
adopted in 1889. Is this sufficient for your purposes? I have also
e-mailed you cc on this matter. I would add that Montgomeryshire still
exists as a geographical and historical county in its own right. It is
only part of the administrative county of Powys.
Regards, David Peate
Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society
I have used it. When I first opened it up, there was a box for
worldconnect (or something like that), I typed WILLPERF in that. That
took me to the database alphabetical options, and then I just typed in
the family surname in the box instead of using the letters for P, H. M,
etc. (in my case Paynter, Hughes, Morgan, Parry, etc.--all separate but
with intersections. I am wondering if it would be possible to type in
the name of a manor and see what happens. Probably nothing
On Wed, 31 May 2000 23:50:02 +1000 "Peter Evans" <pgevans(a)melbpc.org.au>
writes:
>
>> Ive put a certain amount of JE Griffiths onto my database at
>Rootsweb;
>data
>> base is called WILLPERF and site is called
>> http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/; if anyone wants a go at
>finding
>
>Although I went to the site I couldn't find the database WILLPERF.
>Could you please let me know what steps one takes after getting to the
>above
>mentioned site to then find Willperf?
>
>Regards, Peter Evans
>
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Unsubscribing for a while to hunt ancestors in other parts of the country.
Thanks for people who have offered help.
Jill
Staffordshire
Always looking for BANHAMs and PARSLOWs in and around Dwygyfylchi and
Conway.
Nancy,
Here is what it says on his Canadian passport, which cost two dollars, and
they won't take payment in postage stamps!
Passports are granted: -
1. To natural-born British subjects.
2. To the wives and widows of such persons
3. To persons naturalized in the Dominion of Canada, in the United Kingdom,
in other British Colonies, or in India.
He was listed as a British Subject, so I think you were right, he didn't
have a Welsh passport. You asked his age at the time, and he was 40, but he
turned 41 a few days after arriving in the US.
He wasn't born in Liverpool, he was from Llandegai, Wales, and I'm just
assuming (here I go again) that he sailed from Liverpool because it was the
closest port from which he could sail, or if a company was hiring him to
work in the Pennsylvania mines, it was where they sailed. Though he had gone
to Mt. Ash in Glamorgan for work, and had four children born in Mt. Ash. In
1922, my grandmother and the two living children sailed from Cardiff to
Ellis Island, NY, and went to Nanticoke, Pa. to join him.
The passport also states John Henry Williams, Esquire, of Windsor, Ontario,
Canada to pass freely without let or hindrance and to afford him every
assistance and protection of which he may stand in need. It was signed in
Ottawa by the Under Secretary of State for External Affairs and dated 19
July 1921. His month of birth is wrong, and I won't tell you how they
slaughtered the Welsh spelling of his place of birth.
This document is actually very interesting. All those British titles
written on it just to ask in the name of His British Majesty to allow him to
enter.
Hope this is the information you were curious about.
Regards,
Arlene Berta
No.
"Nancy L. Hilton" wrote:
> Hi Arlene
>
> The most likely ports he arrived from Liverpool to Canada would have
> been Halifax, NB; St. John, NF, or possibly Quebec City or Montreal,
> Quebec. Though I'm definitely not an expert it would have been very
> unlikely that an ocean vessel sailed all the way to Windsor. It's
> highly likely that D & H Vessel was a Great Lakes ship.
>
> There is a Great Lakes marine heritage site at
> http://www.marmus.ca/
> that may have information you're looking for.
>
> If that doesn't help, browse around
> http://www.CyndisList.com/gencan.htm
> and you should be able to find the help you need.
>
> Regarding his passport, I know when my grandfather came here from
> Carnarfonshire, Wales in the mid 1920's he didn't need a passport to
> enter Canada. Though I'm definitely *NOT* an expert on the subject, I
> believe Canada was still under the original British North America Act of
> 1867 in the 1920's so at that time even though we called ourselves the
> Dominion of Canada we still were under the final rule of the
> Commonwealth, meaning in very broad terms that Canadians were still
> considered British citizens (correct me anyone if I'm wrong).....so it
> would have been *highly unlikely* that he would have had to hand over
> his British passport in order to obtain a Canadian one, there would have
> been no need to and I personally have never heard of any instance.
>
> I hate to ask but do you know for sure that he was born in Liverpool?
> Do you know how old he was when he came to Canada? Many Canadians have
> a nasty habit of saying their nationality is the same as their
> heritage. Ask a person born on Canadian soil where they are from
> there's a 50/50 chance he will say the country of his parent's or
> grandparent's birth instead of Canada (we're silly that way)....so I'm a
> little confused as to why he had a Canadian passport and not a British
> one if he was born in L'pool...unless maybe he came to Canada as a very
> small child and never had a British passport.....let me know what you
> find out.....you've got me very curious :-)
>
> Hope I've helped,
> Nancy
Hi Joan....apparently they thought it was strange too and told me they
asked twice (I've been waiting for the microfilm since early March)...no
reason - just "Restricted" ?!
Gee....I hope it wasn't something I said.
Nancy
It has to do with the original contract signed. I had the same problem with
an 1885 Kansas State census. Finally ordered it through interlibrary loan.
However, yours will be a little harder to get. Sorry.
Carole
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nancy L. Hilton" <acuc(a)acuc.ca>
To: <POWYS-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 12:12 PM
Subject: Llanrug Records
> I just got a call from my local LDS centre saying that the Bishops
> Transcripts, 1878-1900, Parish Church of Llanrug (Caernarvonshire) I
> ordered was "Restricted" and couldn't be sent from Utah
> .............would anyone have any idea why? The person who called me
> had no idea themselves.
>
> Thanks
> Nancy
>
That is great news! Get that tool in a cabinet. I have a china beer
stein that belonged to my great grandfather in a cabinet, along with a
place setting of the china my grandmother brought from Wales. My
treasures!
Regards,
Arlene
Hugh Gibbon wrote:
> Dear Listers
>
> I'm sorry to have to bore you again but I'm excited and I HAVE to
> write to someone. We were talking about clogs ? And I remembered
> some ancient ancient tools ?
>
> So I phoned my brother and without saying about them asked if he's
> found any of Taid's old tools; and he had, including a spokeshave; and
> he had had a job to do recently which was cutting wood to shape in a
> very awkward position and had wondered how to do it and found this old
> spokeshave, a very very old spokeshave, so he cleaned it up and
> sharpened it and it did the job, beautifully.
>
> "Well be careful of it" I said, "cos it's over 200 years old and it
> belonged to Owen Williams, our great great grandfather, who was a
> clogmaker."
>
> "Clogmaker ? Well of course, that's what clogmakers would have used
> to shape the wood."
>
> So now this old spokeshave will probably have a cabinet lined with
> baize, all to itself !
>
> So there you are Listers, without you I would never have followed this
> red herring. Now isn't that exciting? Well, it is to me.
>
> Hugh
Thank you so much to everyone who replied to my questions about the D & H
vessel. I have learned a lot, and have lots of avenues to pursue.
I am again overwhelmed at the information and knowledge provided by so
many of you. What a wonderful group of people.
Thanks for sharing,
Arlene Berta
"Nancy L. Hilton" wrote:
> Hi again Arlene,
>
> I found the following at the Marine Museum of the Great Lakes site:
>
> Name & Registration Information:
> *D.H. Morris; Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada*
> Rigging, Tonnage, Length, Breadth & Depth:
> *Rig: (SHIP) Tonnage: (1195.00) Length: (193.600) Breadth: (39.2000)
> Depth: (23.5000)*
> Building Data - Date and Place
> *1876; Walton, Nova Scotia, Canada*
> Builder's Name:
> *D.H. Morris*
> Notes & Remarks
> *1891, Nor- wegian* ...........(have no idea what this means)
> Source of Data
> *Frederick W. Wallace - Record of Canadian Shipping 1786 - 1920*
>
> So if this is the vessel your ancestor came to Canada on it seems this
> crazy canuck confused your "Windsor" with Windsor, Ontario (oposite
> Detroit) and Windsor, Nova Scotia - sorry about that.
>
> So, it is possible that a vessel from Liverpool could have arrived in
> "Windsor" afterall...how about that...learn something new every day!
>
> And....just 'cuse I'm going on holidays today and killing time I did a
> "Windsor, Nova Scotia" search for you on this same site and came up
> with..........
>
> Record ID: 68446
> Accession Number: 199712078; (MM) AAC1856; (MM)AAH2493; (MM)AAH2494;
> (MM)AAH2496; (MM)AAH2499; (MM)AAH2500; (MM)AAH2502; (MM)AAH2503
> Category: DocBibliographic
> Title: NAC RG 12 Vol. 342,360,368 Shipping Registers C-3187,
> (Microfilm) Port Registers
> LC Call Number: HE630.A5.C37
> Publisher: 1855-1907
> Subject Headings: Ship Registers - Canada; Windsor (Ont) - Windsor
> (Nova Scotia) - Barrington Passage
> Format: Microfilm
>
> You can go to the National Archives of Canada site at:
> http://www.archives.ca
> to find out how you can obtain a copy of the document..
>
> Take care,
> Nancy
Dick,
Thanks for the information. Slowly pieces of history are fitting together. Do
you perhaps happen to know if there are any of the little housing areas like Tan y
Bwlch, Mynydd and Coed y Parc still in existence?
Thanks,
Arlene Berta
Dick Jones wrote:
> >Hi,
> >In doing some research, I recently came upon some information stating that
> >Penryn was a mine in the Llandegai area, owned by Lord Penryn. That a lot of
> >the housing in the area, Mynydd, Tyn y Bwlch, etc. was housing he supplied to
> >the miners working for him. Now, if I could only remember where the site was
> >that I read the information. I know it was in someone's family history
> >website, that was from that area.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Arlene
>
> Arlene
>
> The Penrhyn Mine at Llandegai was opened in 1913. The iron ore occurs in
> sharply folded beds from 4 to 14 ft in thickness and has been won from
> workings and short levels. Difficulties due to the chemical composition of
> the ores, the somewhat irregular disposition of the ore deposits and the
> remoteness of this and other mines have all militated against the
> development of a large-scale iron mining industry in the area.
>
> Source: 'Snowdonia' (The National Park of Wales)
> by F. J. North, B. Campbell & R. Scott
> [Collins] 1949
>
> --
> Best regards
> Dick Jones
> Leigh-on-Sea, Essex. U.K. <rcjones(a)rmplc.co.uk>
Lisa,
Granite Bay is northeast of Sacramento, in Placer County. Penryn is just up the
road from where I am, off of Route 80.
I have a phone number for the Placer County Museums (916-663-1837), but have yet
had anyone answer when I have called. I'm trying to find out when the Griffith
Miners Museum is open, and where I can find information about the history of the
mine and the museum. Every time I go there it is closed.
My Williams/Griffith grandparents were the only ones to emigrate Wales. They were
already 35 (she) and 40 (he) when they did so. My mother is the only child born
in the US. I do know that one of his sister's Anne Jane Williams, married and
moved to Australia. All of my Welsh ancestors are in Wales. Now the trick is to
find them! I'm on the trail though, William Griffith moved to Leeds and had two
daughters that would now be in there 70's, if they are still living. One was in
the Brithish Navy during WWII, and I know she married and lived in Scotland.
I'll let you know when I get the information on the museum.
Happy hunting,
Arlene Berta
Alisa Judd wrote:
> Arlene,
> Thanks so much for the info. I'd be very interested to know about Penryn, all
> it's particulars and Griffiths Mining. John R Jones was from Anglesey but
> spent most of his life in CA mining. I think it was Placer County. Are you
> related to Jones in Nevada County? Where is Granite Bay?
>
> Lisa Judd
> El Sobrante, CA
>
> Arlene Berta wrote:
>
> > Lisa,
> > There is also a Griffith Miners Museum at Griffith Park, Penryn. It was
> > closed yesterday, and there is no recording on their phone, referencing
> > their hours of business. I was going to give the town hall a call today
> > and see if they could tell me anything. I will let you know. Their is
> > definitely a connection with the Welsh settlers.
> >
> > Happy hunting,
> > Arlene Berta,
> > Granite Bay, Ca
> > Williams/Roberts/Griffith/Jones/Morris
> >
> > Alisa Judd wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > > I'm fairly new to this group. But I've seen the name "Pendryn" a couple
> > > of times. Can someone tell me the meaning of this name?
> > > I'm in California and there is a small town in the Sierra foothills
> > > called Penryn. It was settled by a colony of Welsh after 1850 sometime.
> > > Funny that my Jones family lives in the same county?
> > >
> > > Lisa
I understand! It would be exciting to me also. Let's face it, we are a
rare breed when you get excited over this kind of stuff.
I have a horseshoe shaped plate 4" around in diameter from any side. I was
on the web, found out horseshoes were given to newly married couples in
Wales. I took this to the Antiques Roadshow. They told me it was made
1870s. My grgrandparents from Wales married 1875. I believe I have their
horseshoe plate! I love it. So I definitely relate.
Carole Lubbers, Marietta, Ga. researching Willard: Tuscarawas, Stark,
Summit, Portage & Henry Counties, Ohio
Immel: Burlaswagen, Germany to Holmes Co., Ohio
Thomas G. Kemp: Cornwall, Engl. to Dover, Tuscarawas Co., Ohio
Paczkowski/Paszkowski/Patzkowski: Prussia to Russia to Marion Co., Kansas
Ruth Lloyd b. 1847 Merioneth Co., Wales, Father was John Lloyd b. 1816
Gwyddelwern
Joseph Roberts b. 1848 husband of Ruth, can't locate anything for Joseph
Dennis Hogan b. 1850 Ireland to Cleveland, Ohio abt. 1870
Mary Ellen Gleason b. 1852 Ireland to Cleveland, wife of Dennis Hogan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hugh Gibbon" <Hugh(a)huwg.demon.co.uk>
To: <POWYS-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 2:24 PM
Subject: Re:CLOGS
> Dear Listers
>
> I'm sorry to have to bore you again but I'm excited and I HAVE to
> write to someone. We were talking about clogs ? And I remembered
> some ancient ancient tools ?
>
> So I phoned my brother and without saying about them asked if he's
> found any of Taid's old tools; and he had, including a spokeshave; and
> he had had a job to do recently which was cutting wood to shape in a
> very awkward position and had wondered how to do it and found this old
> spokeshave, a very very old spokeshave, so he cleaned it up and
> sharpened it and it did the job, beautifully.
>
> "Well be careful of it" I said, "cos it's over 200 years old and it
> belonged to Owen Williams, our great great grandfather, who was a
> clogmaker."
>
> "Clogmaker ? Well of course, that's what clogmakers would have used
> to shape the wood."
>
> So now this old spokeshave will probably have a cabinet lined with
> baize, all to itself !
>
> So there you are Listers, without you I would never have followed this
> red herring. Now isn't that exciting? Well, it is to me.
>
> Hugh
>
Nancy,
I can't answer your question, but you might want to have them check again.
The orders are called in by phone; it is possible the person taking the
order misunderstood one of the numbers and got the restricted for a
different film. It seems strange that the BTs would be restricted.
Joan
----- Original Message -----
From: Nancy L. Hilton <acuc(a)acuc.ca>
To: <POWYS-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 12:12 PM
Subject: Llanrug Records
> I just got a call from my local LDS centre saying that the Bishops
> Transcripts, 1878-1900, Parish Church of Llanrug (Caernarvonshire) I
> ordered was "Restricted" and couldn't be sent from Utah
> .............would anyone have any idea why? The person who called me
> had no idea themselves.
>
> Thanks
> Nancy
>
Subject: Mary Jane DAVIS, Newtown
Dear Lisa Judd
I thought that an examination of the 1851 census for Newtown would have
given you all that you needed to know at least initially. I checked
through this census for Newtown and regret to say that there is no infant
Mary Jane DAVI(E)S (or similar) in the town and parish and no John DAVI(E)S
with just a Mary or Jane or Mary J. as an infant daughter. This was
disappointing enough but it was exacerbated by the same result issuing from
an examination of the 1851 census for Llanllwchaiarn.
Regards, David Peate
Montgomeryshire Genealogical Society
Lesley,
Thank you for all that information. I can't believe they sailed a row boat to
Peru. I wonder if we could get Ted Kennedy to fess up and tell the family
stories?:o)
Thanks again for all the information.
Arlene
Lesley-Dee Dylan wrote:
> > Subject: Re: D & H Vessel
> > From: "Betty A. Pace" <bapace2(a)juno.com>
>
> > My guess would be that it is the vessel he was on from Liverpool to
> > Windsor ,Canada. I am not certain, but I don't think you can sail
> > from
> > Windsor to Detroit (which is somewhat inland)--except perhaps on the
> > Great Lakes.
>
> I don't think it was possible to sail from Liverpool to Windsor, Canada,
> in 1921. Even after the St. Lawrence Seaway was built, there were not
> passenger vessels on that route. The landing point was almost always
> Halifax, occasionally Montreal or Quebec City.
>
> As for sailing from Windsor to Detroit, that was common. There is a large
> bridge now, and a tunnel, over/under the St. Clair River, but through the
> 20s and 30s, small vessels crossing was common. In particular, after
> prohibition began, there were continual vessels "exporting" alcohol from
> Canada to Peru, leaving from Windsor. At least, that is what the official
> export papers said. I have no idea how a rowboat made it from Windsor
> down the St. Clair River, across Lake Erie, down the Niagara River, across
> Lake Ontario, down the St. Lawrence River, and down the coast of the U.S.,
> through the Caribbean, and into South America, but that is what the
> official export papers said was the destination! The best part of it was
> that the row boats made it all the way to "Peru" and back in time for a
> second load, the same day.
>
> How the Canadian Bronfman family and the American Kennedy family made
> their money during the depression - exporting Canadian whiskey to "Peru."
>
> --
> | Fidonet: Lesley-Dee Dylan 1:250/201
> | Internet: hippy(a)to.org
> | Net250: Fidonet in Toronto, Canada
I just got a call from my local LDS centre saying that the Bishops
Transcripts, 1878-1900, Parish Church of Llanrug (Caernarvonshire) I
ordered was "Restricted" and couldn't be sent from Utah
.............would anyone have any idea why? The person who called me
had no idea themselves.
Thanks
Nancy
Betty,
I thought the same thing about sailing into Detroit, but then I looked at
the map, and Windsor is across the river from Detroit, so I thought perhaps
they did come by small craft. You must be correct though, and they probably
were driven across. I'll have to do some further research into the mode of
transportation used to enter the US from this area.
I've found a reference to a D&H Iron Works in Pennsylvania, and my
grandfather did work in Collier #7 of the Susquehanna Mine in Nanticoke,
Pa.. He died as a result of a mine injury. I'm thinking that perhaps D&H
offered the miners in Wales jobs in the US. I need to read up on this
subject.
Thanks for helping me think this through.
Regards,
Arlene Berta
"Betty A. Pace" wrote:
> My guess would be that it is the vessel he was on from Liverpool to
> Windsor ,Canada. I am not certain, but I don't think you can sail from
> Windsor to Detroit (which is somewhat inland)--except perhaps on the
> Great Lakes.
>
> Betty Pace
>
> On Tue, 30 May 2000 15:19:44 -0700 Arlene Berta <aberta(a)pacbell.net>
> writes:
> >Hi,
> >I have a Declaration of Intention for naturalization by my
> >grandfather,
> >and it states that he entered the US from Windsor, Canada on August
> >21,
> >1921, aboard the vessel D & H. My question is, would this be the
> >vessel
> >he boarded in Liverpool, or would it possibly be a vessel that he took
> >from Windsor to Detroit, Michigan?
> >
> >I only have his Canadian passport, I'm assuming (you know what happens
> >now) that he had to turn in his UK passport to get a Canadian one.
> >The
> >Canadian passport does not state a mode of entry to the US. Did they
> >sail over, or ride in a vehicle, or were both ways an option? Am I
> >all
> >wet, or what?
> >
> >I've searched sites for Canada and passenger lists are not available
> >for
> >this time period. Is there a Canadian on the list that could point me
> >in a good direction?
> >
> >Thanks in advance,
> >Arlene Berta
> >Granite Bay, CA
> >Williams/Roberts/Griffith/Jones/Morris
> >
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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