Well, apparently there is no "violation," Denise, because as you've
pointed out, it's perfectly A-OK, for CCs to run their personal
businesses and charge whatever fees they wish, so long as they don't
place their business ad (a link is okay, though!) on the front page
of their site. Geeze.
I think there's one heck of a conflict of interest, not to mention an
*ethical* violation of the intent of this project, which is to be
*free* - when CCs are actually making money by running private
research businesses from their county sites to pay for their
scanners, computers, or whatever else they want to buy with the money
they earn courtesy of the US/NCGenWeb Project. This isn't confined to
one CC. I'm aware of several who are doing it.
Since the current rules or guidelines apparently do *not* preclude
CCs from using this project as a means for conducting their own
personal businesses, I think we need to adopt some new rules that
*do* preclude it.
-Sandy
On Nov 16, 2007, at 3:46 PM, Denise Woodside wrote:
Sandy,
I apologize if you thought I wanted you to bring up specific names in
public. I don't. Or even counties -- and that goes for others on
this list that are close to crossing that line as well - by the way.
(Re-reading my message that probably includes me as well.) I meant to
privately tell me the page that is in violation.
Keep in mind that this discuss list is for discussing issues -- and we
have definitely fallen on one here. But the discussion should be
about the issue in general - as in how far is too far, etc. I think
the discussion is very valid - however there isn't a right or wrong
answer, since different people have differences of opinions. So we
won't reach a conclusion here.
The only mailing lists that I'm in charge of are my county mailing
lists, ncgenweb, and ncgenweb-discuss - and as administrator, I will
control those lists, but I can't control the county mailing lists -
Rootsweb has outright told me that they won't talk to me about a list
that isn't mine. (We had an issue in the past where someone was be
moderated inappropriately and Rootsweb wouldn't even talk to me about
the situation - they compared it to HIPPA of all things!!) So the
jurisdictional issue is a reality that I can not change.
I am very concerned about the county websites though - they have to
follow Rootsweb AUP and NCGenWeb and USGenWeb guidelines and bylaws,
respectively. And I do want to know if anyone feels that a site is in
violation (again privately). I will certainly address that. However,
outside of that, I can't tell anyone HOW to do their website, how to
set it up, supply information, etc. - again, I only hold folks
accountable to the NCGenWeb guidelines. That is why there is a
variance in the quality of sites as one "travels" through NCGenWeb.
All I want is folks to do their best -- AND follow the guidelines.
Thanks everyone reading this for being patient with this discussion.
I know it has definitely made us all think.
Denise
On Nov 16, 2007 2:43 PM, Sandy <teylu(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
> I'm not falling for that trap again, Denise. The last time I brought
> up an issue and deliberately did not mention names, someone else
> *did*drag specific names into it, and then I was accused of launching
> a personal attack which was the furthest thing from the truth.
>
> As you've stated, you know full-well exactly what example I'm
> speaking of, and you also know the details of this particular
> incident. When a CC opts not to provide information on where and how
> to inexpensively obtain documents, and instead chooses to charge a
> much higher *fee* of several dollars to email scanned images when
> researchers can obtain photocopies for 25¢ from the county, I believe
> there exists a blatant conflict of interest and ethical dilemma that
> needs attention and resolution.
>
> This isn't rocket science. It's a matter of ethics and conflicts of
> interest by CCs who are using this project to run their personal
> businesses. You either address it and take measures to stop it, or
> you accept it and defend it by pointing to a loophole in the national
> project's bylaws and "jurisdictional" difficulties with county
> project lists operating on Rootsweb servers. That's a pretty
> straight-
> forward choice, and you seem to have made yours.
>
> Frankly, I think we need to adopt state project ethics rules
> addressing these conflicts of interest. They should not be allowed.
>
> -Sandy
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2007, at 10:45 AM, Denise Woodside wrote:
>
>> Sandy,
>>
>> Please give me an example of a county site which is doing what you
>> are claiming:
>> "Just set up shop as a USGW Project "volunteer" and use the
>> project to
>> obtain clients and sell your "services." Omit information that
>> informs researchers of the easiest and least expensive manner of
>> obtaining records for *themselves*, and then "serve" them by
>> charging
>> them with your services."
>>
>> The only site that you have brought to my attention privately has no
>> mention of selling services that I've found and has 100s (if not
>> 1000s) of pages of data online. In fact, I would be embarassed to
>> have either of my county sites compared to the tremendous amount of
>> free data that appears on this site.
>>
>> Denise
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2007 9:48 AM, Sandy <teylu(a)earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not much of a deterrent to those who have obvious conflicts of
>>> interest, is it?
>>> Just set up shop as a USGW Project "volunteer" and use the
>>> project to
>>> obtain clients and sell your "services."
>>> Omit information that informs researchers of the easiest and least
>>> expensive manner of obtaining records for *themselves*, and then
>>> "serve" them by charging them with your services.
>>>
>>> A little cagey use of the "non-project" Rootsweb email list you
set
>>> up *for* the US/NCGenWeb county project, and voila - what a
>>> business
>>> plan.:) Just "announce" that you have the data - but don't
>>> specifically "sell" it until researchers email you asking for it.
>>>
>>> We've had problems in the past with obvious conflicts of interest
>>> from some genealogy societies who hosted county sites and
>>> intentionally precluded the "free" sharing of data in which the
>>> society had a vested financial interest. Not *all* societies took
>>> that approach, mind you, but some did, and it definitely created a
>>> furor because it violates the whole purpose of this project.
>>>
>>> There is likewise a clear conflict of interest when those who run
>>> genealogical research *businesses* also serve as US/NCGW Project
>>> "volunteers." Their actions are a slap in the face to those of
>>> us who
>>> have kept the spirit of this project by serving researchers at
>>> absolutely no charge, and who do not attempt to finance our own
>>> personal computers, scanners, or anything else by charging fees to
>>> those who come to the Project for research assistance.
>>>
>>> Perhaps what's needed are some clear rules concerning conflicts of
>>> interest. In most quarters, these are known as "ethics" rules.
>>> Developing ethics rules for our project would at least help. No
>>> doubt
>>> the vast majority of CCs are on the up-and-up, and have no
>>> desire to
>>> use the project for their personal financial gain, and we certainly
>>> should not have to tolerate those who are.
>>>
>>> -Sandy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 15, 2007, at 8:02 PM, Elizabeth Harris wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Our project guidelines for volunteers
>>>> (
http://www.rootsweb.com/%7Encgenweb/volunteer.html) include the
>>>> following:
>>>>
>>>> Solicitation of funds for personal gain is forbidden. You may
>>>> however
>>>> provide links to personal web pages where research services or
>>>> materials are offered for sale. You may also list materials for
>>>> sale,
>>>> for example publications by your local genealogical society, but
>>>> these should not be listed on the main web page for your site. You
>>>> may however provide a link to these listings from your main page.
>>>> You
>>>> may also acknowledge the server or organization that provides your
>>>> web space.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On my "resources" pages I list names of people who will do
>>>> research
>>>> for a fee, and leave it to the reader to contact these people. I
>>>> don't endorse anyone.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I never accept money for any research, lookups,
>>>> copies, or
>>>> other assistance. To me this seems unethical in a volunteer
>>>> project
>>>> like NCGenWeb. If somebody offers to pay me, I tell her to
>>>> pass the
>>>> favor along to another genealogist or make a contribution to
>>>> charity
>>>> or a local genealogical organization.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From the beginning, county e-mail lists at Rootsweb were not
>>>> allowed
>>>> to mention research for hire, or genealogical materials for
>>>> sale. So
>>>> far as I know, this rule hasn't changed.
>>>> --
>>>> Elizabeth Harris
>>>> ncgen(a)mindspring.com
>>>>
>>>> Personal genealogy webpage:
http://www.duke.edu/web/chlamy
>>>> Winston-Salem NC area genealogy:
http://www.fmoran.com/
>>>> HOLDER DNA project:
http://www.mindspring.com/~holderdna/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NCGENWEB-
>>> DISCUSS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>>
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NCGENWEB-
>> DISCUSS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NCGENWEB-
> DISCUSS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NCGENWEB-
DISCUSS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
the quotes in the subject and the body of the message