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I'm not trying to be a nay-sayer here, but keep in mind our General Assembly
is recessed until next year, other than organization day in November. You
won't get their attention because they won't be there. An idea like this would
probably get a bigger splash when all 150 legislators are at the statehouse.
Just my thoughts, and yes, this is one thing that it is going to take...
Kyle
Yes, this time around the politicians won't be able to pick and choose,
change dates and times, and generally merry-make with the issues. One
thing that comes to mind
is a firm date or dates that are in advance
to do any sort of demonstration.
Henry county did good last year, steps in the right direction, it
wasn't for nothing.
I have contacted many people and organizations, sort of testing the
water.
Surely there are others here, that have idea's and contacts. I'm not
interested in trying to lead anyone else around by the nose.
Lee Creed
Greencastle
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From: Armytruck(a)webtv.net (Lee)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:53:42 -0500
To: whimsical61953(a)yahoo.com (Rahn Teresa)
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Protesting
Message-ID: <27209-40E20F16-2132(a)storefull-3317.bay.webtv.net>
In-Reply-To: Rahn Teresa <whimsical61953(a)yahoo.com>'s message of Tue, 29
Jun 2004 17:36:49 -0700 (PDT)
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Oooops, guess I should have been sharper. I mean about the destruction
of burial sites, the farming, mining, anything where they are
intentionally destroyed, I don't think neglect falls under this.
Neglected sites can be attended to, ones that are destroyed, can't,
ever.
It would require what many people on here have already done, a portfolio
of
sites and locations thereof. The examples of law enforcement failing to
act. Jon's
situation in Knox county has led me to be thinking about this for a long
time.
I also understand there are a great many factions and personalities
present on this list, I am not interested in getting tangled up in any
other issues, ego's, or what have you, I simply don't care about that.
But I do owe myself, after having worked
in graveyards for so many years, the obligation to do "more". Just as
anyone else who has done anything for a cemetery or graveyard owes
themselves
the need to protect and honor what they have done. After all why did we
do it in the first place ?? Because we wanted to do the "right" thing.
I would just like to see where burial's have been violated, that the
offender is swiftly and firmly punished. I realize that some can and
will get off the hook, but we simply need to be visible, get the message
out and get peoples disgust and
indignation up. To do this, some of us have got to make a commitment.
I don't have all the answers, I ask you to share your thoughts.
Lee Creed
Greencastle
--WebTV-Mail-20575-1130--
Is there enough people on this list willing to make a visible protest,
preferably in Indianapolis ?? I don't mean a carnival
dog and pony show. I don't see any way to draw attention to the problem
unless you do something that draws media coverage directly to the
problem. Any idea's ?? If the law makers can be impacted in any way, I
think this is one of them. They ultimately have control over the law
enforcement and judicial branches.
Lee Creed
Greencastle
No article was ever written about it to my knowledge, all I know is that
the surrounding neighbors (who are all dead now) and one Larry Price,
who was active in those days on gravestones, recovered the stones from
the creek. The neighbor up the road (widow of one of the guys) told me
when we were plotting to make an entry that the owner/snake had died
almost a year ago.
Larry and Sheila are going places these days, I wish I had their energy,
I would imagine they will outdo all those who proceeded them. When they
were at the workshop, they acted as if they at an opera, not a single
point was missed.
I am still in on whatever needs to be done, however I can help. My
absence
was not a loss, as it really was a small
project, if I had shown up with the whole outfit it would have been
major overkill.
As you saw, those two can handle whatever needs done.
Lee Creed
Greencastle
Also, to everyone:
If you go to accessindiana.com, go to elected officials, there's a place
where you can suggest new laws. It's called: "There Ought to be a Law", and type
in your suggestion for tougher cemetery laws/ and easier access to restore
cemeterys on private property. It can't hurt.
Amy
Subject: Pickle Cemetery, Putnam Co. IN
So he did die? I wanted to find him and talk to him. There are at least 3
more people buried there that don't have tombstones, and I want to know what
happened to them. Also, do you know what year in the 70's the vandalism took
place? I want to find the newspaper article about it. We are putting together
a short history about the cemetery and will submit it to the library in
Greencastle, and possibly to the website in Putnam Co. I am very very grateful
to Sheila and Larry on their help, you should go look at what they did. It's
amazing. I understand you were busy with the cemetery workshops and couldn't
help, and it's o.k., we did it, and I'm happy about it. I am still ordering
the militery marker, and I hope I can still have it sent to your work.
Amy
Yes, I'm sure my relatives graves are probably already destroyed. I'm just
glad I finally got approval to restore Pickle Cemetery.
I think a group of people at the court house with picket signs would at least
make it into the paper, maybe the t.v. maybe make more people aware about
how bad the cemetery laws are.
Amy
Well, I'm not real good at showing up at specified times as you well
know, but I think that in order to call attention to this,
you need an example of the cause you are fighting for. Adding
additional laws that won't be enforced anyway, won't work.
Dragging the villian into the public spotlight has got to prove
something.
Somewhere, sometime one hell of a big fuss has to be made. I am not at
all for radical elements that show up in any movement, but I think a
display of disgust
and educating anyone within reach willing to listen is one of the ways
to go.
As for Pickle, too bad the idiot died before we could wring his neck. I
hope he's holding a pitchfork somewhere and condemned to dragging
gravestones back out of the creek.
Lee Creed
Greencastle
That figures, Amy. Knowing your luck it might be in one of these
threatened sites.
I guess we will have to upgrade to an armed mob, at this rate. Wonder
if there has ever been a standoff at a cemetery ?
Lee Creed
Greencastle
Maybe they don't "sip" tea in Kokomo, but in Knox County they are definitely
tea sippers!
That's the problem, everyone wants be offended. Have you contacted the the
DHPA to express your opinion on the Mariah Creek Baptist Cemetery issue or
any other cemetery issues in general?
If so, let's hear it for the ladies from Kokomo!
Jon Andrews
P. S. By the way, when the DAR ladies updated the Knox County cemetery
books back in the 70's, they omitted this cemetery and several other hard to
get to sites, because their high heels couldn't make it through the
cornfield. That's one reason that it wasn't documented in the book, declared
destroyed and lost to agriculture.
>From: LindaKen2048(a)aol.com
>Reply-To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
>To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: [INPCRP] RE: Fw: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
>Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:00:40 EDT
>
>I am a member of National Society Daughters of the American Revolution and
>I
>think your view of us "sipping tea" is offensive and an apology is
>requested.
>Did you contact any of the DAR members in your area for their help and
>support? You would be surprised what we accomplish.
>
>Regards,
>Linda Grove
>General James Cox Chapter
>Kokomo, IN
>
>Linda Grove
>Liberty Township Trustee/Assessor
>Howard County, Indiana
>Office: 765.628.2402
>
>Linda Gill Grove
>Surname Researching:
>IN: Gill, Stout, Manor, and Mann
>NYC: Joyce, McAleer, Callaghan and McGregor
>"Their Story Is Our Story"
>
>
>
>
>==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
>Scott Satterthwaite < ssattert(a)localnet.com > is the INPCRP State
>Coordinator. Feel free to contact him directly regarding questions or
>comments you may have about the INPCRP.
>
_________________________________________________________________
From will you? to I do, MSN Life Events is your resource for Getting
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Great idea! Wrong county. The last big confrontation we had on the
Courthouse steps was when the President of the County Council, who refuses
to fund our budget, came screaming across the parking lot with a shovel in
his hand calling me an SOB and wanting to know why I "cut his legs" off in
front of the Commissioners. That didn't make the news, so I doubt that a
peaceful demonstration
would garner anymore attention than that. Look around us people, we're
living in a different world today and we are the minority. Even our laws are
on the side of the ones who break them, mainly because no one, not even our
state agencies, have enough guts to take a stand and defend what is right.
Thanks for the offer and I'll call you when we get a dozen Knox County
residents who aren't "too bus" to march.
Jon Andrews
>From: Armytruck(a)webtv.net (Lee)
>Reply-To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
>To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: [INPCRP] RE: Fw: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
>Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:49:37 -0500
>
>
>A protest on the steps of Knox county courthouse, complete with the
>signs and picket line to draw attention, perhaps statewide. I'm
>serious, I'll come.
>
>Lee Creed
>Greencastle
>
>
>==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
>Scott Satterthwaite < ssattert(a)localnet.com > is the INPCRP State
>Coordinator. Feel free to contact him directly regarding questions or
>comments you may have about the INPCRP.
>
_________________________________________________________________
Make the most of your family vacation with tips from the MSN Family Travel
Guide! http://dollar.msn.com
I am a member of National Society Daughters of the American Revolution and I
think your view of us "sipping tea" is offensive and an apology is requested.
Did you contact any of the DAR members in your area for their help and
support? You would be surprised what we accomplish.
Regards,
Linda Grove
General James Cox Chapter
Kokomo, IN
Linda Grove
Liberty Township Trustee/Assessor
Howard County, Indiana
Office: 765.628.2402
Linda Gill Grove
Surname Researching:
IN: Gill, Stout, Manor, and Mann
NYC: Joyce, McAleer, Callaghan and McGregor
"Their Story Is Our Story"
A protest on the steps of Knox county courthouse, complete with the
signs and picket line to draw attention, perhaps statewide. I'm
serious, I'll come.
Lee Creed
Greencastle
How about black draped Cemetery Hall of Shame signs? That might get someones attention.
Theresa
Rich Green <rgreen(a)insightbb.com> wrote:
Jon and Doug,
I can certainly understand your disappointment and agree that the cemetery preservation laws seem to be somewhat lacking when it comes to prosecution of offending property owners. In this case the tenant farmer has agreed to cease use of the property and maybe this will dissuade the owner in the future; at least there is that hope now and this wasn't true just a few weeks ago. Clearly, the DHPA has followed through to the extent that there has been a promise of no further damage. It's a good start.
It's my opinion that these sort of problems aren't going to be fixed by the state government and will continue until such a time when more local peer groups and or civic organizations ban together in a concerted effort to convince offenders either through some form of negotiation and arbitration, or perhaps civil and criminal litigation. A site like the original Maria Creek Baptist church and cemetery could be saved if enough Knox County folks come together and insist so.
The cemetery commissioners have done their part by diligently bringing this to light. The local genealogical society, DAR chapter, historical society and other interested parties should become actively involved now. Organizations could distribute petitions among their constituencies and make the concerns about this important site known publicly through the local news media. This sort of local pressure is more likely to cause an uncooperative land owner to rethink his/her position than is a visit by the Conservation Officer.
I will certainly be willing to assist in any effort along these lines. For now, I'll leave the site photos online. Please let me know if I can help in any other way.
Best Regards,
Rich Green
Historic Archaeological Research
4338 Hadley Court
West Lafayette, IN 47906
Office: (765) 464-8735
Mobile: (765) 427-4082
www.har-indy.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Dougherty
To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] RE: Fw: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
There might as well not be any laws pertaining to cemeteries. I've got a
similar situation in Daviess County, at Cincinnati Cemetery, that no one
seems to care about, has been reported, and nothing done.
Guess if I kill someone, sell drugs, steal cars, etc., I can simply say "I
won't do it again", and they'll let me off.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jon andrews"
To:
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:33 PM
Subject: [INPCRP] RE: Fw: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
> So, I guess that's it! I'm sorry, but I promise not to do it again.
> I just don't get it. In my world, you break the law and you go to jail.
> Where is this going to go from here?
> I would like to have a copy of the C.O.'s investigative report. If he did
> any kind of investigation at all, he might have uncovered the fact that
the
> so-called "landowner" doesn't even own the land the cemetery sits on.
> So, we all go home now and wait for next spring, or what?
> I knew it wouldn't go anywhere, it never does.
> Jon Andrews
==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England
and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli:
"Show me the manner in which a nation or community
cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical
exactness the tender mercies of its people, their
respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty
to high ideals."
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
Well you can forget cooperation from the organizations in Knox County. The
DAR is too busy sipping tea, the Genealogical Society has a bus trip to the
State Library in July and the Historical Society is selling books at the
fair. As far as the media, our local paper will report more about what's
going on in Boston, MA than Knox County.
This all boils down to one word, TRESPASS! If this was any other situation
they would have busted the poor soul and thrown away the key. But, when it
comes to protecting the dead or raising corn, we (most) here in Indiana will
strip the trees, plow the cemetery and get another acre, whether it it
rightfully ours or not.
How much corn can you yield in an acre of cemetery, anyway?
It's a sad situation we are in!
Jon Andrews
P.S. Still waiting on C.O. to return my calls.
>From: "Rich Green" <rgreen(a)insightbb.com>
>Reply-To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
>To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: [INPCRP] RE: Fw: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
>Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:26:03 -0500
>
>Jon and Doug,
>
>I can certainly understand your disappointment and agree that the cemetery
>preservation laws seem to be somewhat lacking when it comes to prosecution
>of offending property owners. In this case the tenant farmer has agreed to
>cease use of the property and maybe this will dissuade the owner in the
>future; at least there is that hope now and this wasn't true just a few
>weeks ago. Clearly, the DHPA has followed through to the extent that there
>has been a promise of no further damage. It's a good start.
>
>It's my opinion that these sort of problems aren't going to be fixed by the
>state government and will continue until such a time when more local peer
>groups and or civic organizations ban together in a concerted effort to
>convince offenders either through some form of negotiation and arbitration,
>or perhaps civil and criminal litigation. A site like the original Maria
>Creek Baptist church and cemetery could be saved if enough Knox County
>folks come together and insist so.
>
>The cemetery commissioners have done their part by diligently bringing this
>to light. The local genealogical society, DAR chapter, historical society
>and other interested parties should become actively involved now.
>Organizations could distribute petitions among their constituencies and
>make the concerns about this important site known publicly through the
>local news media. This sort of local pressure is more likely to cause an
>uncooperative land owner to rethink his/her position than is a visit by the
>Conservation Officer.
>
>I will certainly be willing to assist in any effort along these lines. For
>now, I'll leave the site photos online. Please let me know if I can help
>in any other way.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>Historic Archaeological Research
>4338 Hadley Court
>West Lafayette, IN 47906
>Office: (765) 464-8735
>Mobile: (765) 427-4082
>www.har-indy.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Doug Dougherty
> To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 8:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [INPCRP] RE: Fw: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
>
>
> There might as well not be any laws pertaining to cemeteries. I've got
>a
> similar situation in Daviess County, at Cincinnati Cemetery, that no one
> seems to care about, has been reported, and nothing done.
>
> Guess if I kill someone, sell drugs, steal cars, etc., I can simply say
>"I
> won't do it again", and they'll let me off.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jon andrews" <sianoil(a)hotmail.com>
> To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:33 PM
> Subject: [INPCRP] RE: Fw: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
>
>
> > So, I guess that's it! I'm sorry, but I promise not to do it again.
> > I just don't get it. In my world, you break the law and you go to
>jail.
> > Where is this going to go from here?
> > I would like to have a copy of the C.O.'s investigative report. If he
>did
> > any kind of investigation at all, he might have uncovered the fact
>that
> the
> > so-called "landowner" doesn't even own the land the cemetery sits on.
> > So, we all go home now and wait for next spring, or what?
> > I knew it wouldn't go anywhere, it never does.
> > Jon Andrews
>
>
>==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
>Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of
>England
>and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli:
> "Show me the manner in which a nation or community
> cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical
> exactness the tender mercies of its people, their
> respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty
> to high ideals."
>
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Movies - Trailers, showtimes, DVD's, and the latest news from Hollywood!
http://movies.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200509ave/direct/01/
I'm new to the listserve, so bear with me if I'm barking up the wrong tree
or throwing out a dead end.
Peer pressure is a powerful tool if used correctly.
Perhaps contact with the local newspaper(s) would be advantageous. I think
that historical issues of this nature would be an interesting story for the
press and would heighten public awareness of historical sites, let alone
proper respect. The story could be accompanied by a map of area cemeteries
and their status/condition. May cause some people to pay attention to areas
that they were unaware of. It could also include "who to contact" and other
information. The press could potentially be persuaded to run the story on an
annual basis in order to kind of "track" the sites.
Deborah S. Luzier
4410 Par Drive
Indianapolis, IN 46268
phone: (317) 258-8046 * fax: (317) 887-5616
website: www.TheLuziers.com
email: DSLuzier(a)yahoo.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Green [mailto:rgreen@insightbb.com]
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 11:26 AM
To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] RE: Fw: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
Jon and Doug,
I can certainly understand your disappointment and agree that the cemetery
preservation laws seem to be somewhat lacking when it comes to prosecution
of offending property owners. In this case the tenant farmer has agreed to
cease use of the property and maybe this will dissuade the owner in the
future; at least there is that hope now and this wasn't true just a few
weeks ago. Clearly, the DHPA has followed through to the extent that there
has been a promise of no further damage. It's a good start.
It's my opinion that these sort of problems aren't going to be fixed by the
state government and will continue until such a time when more local peer
groups and or civic organizations ban together in a concerted effort to
convince offenders either through some form of negotiation and arbitration,
or perhaps civil and criminal litigation. A site like the original Maria
Creek Baptist church and cemetery could be saved if enough Knox County folks
come together and insist so.
The cemetery commissioners have done their part by diligently bringing this
to light. The local genealogical society, DAR chapter, historical society
and other interested parties should become actively involved now.
Organizations could distribute petitions among their constituencies and make
the concerns about this important site known publicly through the local news
media. This sort of local pressure is more likely to cause an uncooperative
land owner to rethink his/her position than is a visit by the Conservation
Officer.
I will certainly be willing to assist in any effort along these lines. For
now, I'll leave the site photos online. Please let me know if I can help in
any other way.
Best Regards,
Rich Green
Historic Archaeological Research
4338 Hadley Court
West Lafayette, IN 47906
Office: (765) 464-8735
Mobile: (765) 427-4082
www.har-indy.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Doug Dougherty
To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] RE: Fw: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
There might as well not be any laws pertaining to cemeteries. I've got a
similar situation in Daviess County, at Cincinnati Cemetery, that no one
seems to care about, has been reported, and nothing done.
Guess if I kill someone, sell drugs, steal cars, etc., I can simply say "I
won't do it again", and they'll let me off.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jon andrews" <sianoil(a)hotmail.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:33 PM
Subject: [INPCRP] RE: Fw: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
> So, I guess that's it! I'm sorry, but I promise not to do it again.
> I just don't get it. In my world, you break the law and you go to jail.
> Where is this going to go from here?
> I would like to have a copy of the C.O.'s investigative report. If he
did
> any kind of investigation at all, he might have uncovered the fact that
the
> so-called "landowner" doesn't even own the land the cemetery sits on.
> So, we all go home now and wait for next spring, or what?
> I knew it wouldn't go anywhere, it never does.
> Jon Andrews
==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of
England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli:
"Show me the manner in which a nation or community
cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical
exactness the tender mercies of its people, their
respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty
to high ideals."
There might as well not be any laws pertaining to cemeteries. I've got a
similar situation in Daviess County, at Cincinnati Cemetery, that no one
seems to care about, has been reported, and nothing done.
Guess if I kill someone, sell drugs, steal cars, etc., I can simply say "I
won't do it again", and they'll let me off.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jon andrews" <sianoil(a)hotmail.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 7:33 PM
Subject: [INPCRP] RE: Fw: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
> So, I guess that's it! I'm sorry, but I promise not to do it again.
> I just don't get it. In my world, you break the law and you go to jail.
> Where is this going to go from here?
> I would like to have a copy of the C.O.'s investigative report. If he did
> any kind of investigation at all, he might have uncovered the fact that
the
> so-called "landowner" doesn't even own the land the cemetery sits on.
> So, we all go home now and wait for next spring, or what?
> I knew it wouldn't go anywhere, it never does.
> Jon Andrews
>
>
> >From: "Rich Green" <rgreen(a)insightbb.com>
> >To: "Jon Andrews" <sianoil(a)hotmail.com>
> >Subject: Fw: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
> >Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:32:44 -0500
> >
> >
> >Rich Green
> >Historic Archaeological Research
> >4338 Hadley Court
> >West Lafayette, IN 47906
> >Office: (765) 464-8735
> >Mobile: (765) 427-4082
> >www.har-indy.com
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Mohow, James
> >To: 'Rich Green'
> >Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:14 AM
> >Subject: RE: Mariah Baptist Cemetery
> >
> >
> >Rich:
> >
> >
> >
> >Wanted to let you know that we just received the Conservation Officer's
> >report on his investigation of the Mariah Baptist Cemetery.
> >
> >While he land owner was not cooperative. The current tenant farmer has
> >promised not to disturb the land again after he has harvested his corn
crop
> >for this year. The C.O. will also follow this up by checking the site
> >again this Fall and again in the Spring.
> >
> >
> >
> >Jim
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to
win
> a trip to NY
>
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>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> Scott Satterthwaite < ssattert(a)localnet.com > is the INPCRP State
Coordinator. Feel free to contact him directly regarding questions or
comments you may have about the INPCRP.
>
what if there were Native People buried there? Then it would be a a Federal
matter...but basically...no one's remans should be
disrespected/disturbed/disinterred/disregarded....et al
what a SAD situation~~
Marilynn in NM