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Ernie:
You raise some very good questions regarding perpetual care. Unfortunately,
our forefathers had no idea what kind of expenses we'd be faced with 100 years
later in trying to maintain our cemeteries. I know of no government body
that would regulate the perpetual care monies that cemeteries have. In my own
case, our cemetery was nearly broke a few years ago. Through increased grave
prices and the implementation of a "grave opening fee", we have begun to build
up our funds. The purchase of 20 graves by one individual last year also
helped tremendously! However, in the 1920's and 1930's when our cemetery added
grave space, they put a big push on selling lots. At that time, grave were
selling for $25.00. $150 would get you a lot of six graves. We are still burying
family members in these prepaid graves that were sold 70 years ago. Their
families knew a bargain when they saw one and took advantage of it! Now our
current board is paying the price since these are not being sold at today's
prices. Our solution was to implement at $250 grave opening fee that goes into the
perpetual care fund. This is in addition to the price of the grave and does
not include what the grave digger charges. If it weren't for our township
trustee picking up 3/4 of the tab of hiring our caretaker, we'd been out of
business 10 years ago and would have had to turn the cemetery over to the township.
I mentioned our funds are building up. We're up to about $10,000 in
perpetual care right now. Got an estimate on needed repairs to our mausoleum this
week....we're over $25,000. If the engine in one of our mowers were to blow up
today, we'd be looking at a few thousand dollars in expenses. We've got $2000
to $4000 in repairs to our pioneer stones and foundations that need to be done
because our forefathers who sold graves for $25.00 also poured foundations
only six to twelve inches thick to hold a 1/2 to 1 ton stone. All of our drives
need gravel and graded. We just replaced our flag pole (ever price one of
those?) I can go on and on...but I would hate to run into one of those family
members complaining about the perpetual care funds not being there to use and
having to pay $25.00 a year to help upkeep their families' graves. That is
cheap! I just wish my predecessors hadn't promised perpetual care without
requiring the families to promise perpetual funding.
Sorry I got on my soapbox...I just get frustrated with the overwhelming work
that needs to be done in our cemetery and not having the funds to do it. The
really sad thing is that there are people in our community who could help us
out either now or after they pass away through an endowment, but that doesn't
seem to be on anyone's radar screen....except the guy who bought the 20 graves.
His son is our cemetery president.
I'm not really sure I answered your question, Ernie... Sorry.
Kyle
Marilyn,
Maple Hill and IOOF cemeteries in Princeton were purchased from the IOOF
(Independent Order of Odd Fellows) two years ago. At the time, IOOF
perpetual care funds were running short, the IOOF sold many cemeteries in
the area because they were loosing money on them. The new owner, Rick
Mattingly, is assessing a $25 per family fee to help with maintenance
costs. Many lot owners are upset because their lot purchase price was
supposed to cover perpetual care. Mattingly claims he has lost about
$20,000 on the two cemeteries in the last two years, thus the new $25 fee
for "perpetual care". He says the new $25 per year fee will be assessed
for no more than five years, in hopes of beefing up the endowment fund to
cover costs.
He recently increased the lot purchase price from $300 to $350, but has
only sold 35 lots in the last two years. Mattingly estimates that about
two thirds of the $400 burial fee is paid for digging the grave. He also
states that "the $2.50 perpetual fee paid in 1903 doesn't cover the expense
today".
My question to those on the list more familiar with the present cemetery
laws, when Mattingly purchased the cemetery two years ago, was he not
required by law to have a certain amount in a perpetual fund when he
assumed ownership? Who is the State agency that oversees the sale and
purchase of cemeteries?
Ernie
At 03:05 PM 05/17/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Could someone please assist me with this situation regarding Maple Hill [MH]
>cemetery in Princeton?
>
>My elderly mother just called and is VERY upset with them for not providing
>maintenance. Apparently at one time it was Odd Fellows owned, but no more
>and the money deposited in the perpetual care fund is long gone.
>
>Apparently someone destroyed the yews planted at my g'parents grave..been
>there since 1966...leaves haven't been raked for several years and the
>owners' wife told my mother she has to prove our family owns the plots...how
>could we bury our deceased family members if we didn't own the plots???
>
>My mother is rather feisty and raked up all the leaves and bagged them then
>dumped them at the office at MH!!! Of course...they are not happy with her
>and she is not happy with them...at least its mutual!! THEN my mother
>"discovered" a base on which it appears there may have been a plaque [perhaps
>military] installed and then removed...but the base remains and now she is
>demanding to know if there is a body buried on our family plot.
>
>I am here in NM and cannot hop the next plane back to deal with this ...
>suggestions/comments/advice/dos and don'ts.......as soon as possible please.
>
>Many thanks!
>
>Marilynn in NM
>
>
>==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
>If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
Hello,
California requires an endowed care fun for all operating private
cemeteries. It initially started out with requiring a minimum $25,000 be
deposited on start up of a new cemetery. I'm not certain what it is now.
Nonetheless, perhaps it is time for Indiana to consider regulating such
funds to provide for the future care and maintenance of the cemeteries being
privately operated. Hopefully Indiana won't suffer the same problems
California has by the cemetery operators absconding with the funds!
Sue Silver
----- Original Message -----
From: <KidClerk(a)aol.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] ASSISTANCE NEEDED
> Ernie:
>
> You raise some very good questions regarding perpetual care.
Unfortunately,
> our forefathers had no idea what kind of expenses we'd be faced with 100
years
> later in trying to maintain our cemeteries. I know of no government body
> that would regulate the perpetual care monies that cemeteries have. In my
own
> case, our cemetery was nearly broke a few years ago. Through increased
grave
> prices and the implementation of a "grave opening fee", we have begun to
build
> up our funds. The purchase of 20 graves by one individual last year also
> helped tremendously! However, in the 1920's and 1930's when our cemetery
added
> grave space, they put a big push on selling lots. At that time, grave
were
> selling for $25.00. $150 would get you a lot of six graves. We are still
burying
> family members in these prepaid graves that were sold 70 years ago. Their
> families knew a bargain when they saw one and took advantage of it! Now
our
> current board is paying the price since these are not being sold at
today's
> prices. Our solution was to implement at $250 grave opening fee that goes
into the
> perpetual care fund. This is in addition to the price of the grave and
does
> not include what the grave digger charges. If it weren't for our township
> trustee picking up 3/4 of the tab of hiring our caretaker, we'd been out
of
> business 10 years ago and would have had to turn the cemetery over to the
township.
>
> I mentioned our funds are building up. We're up to about $10,000 in
> perpetual care right now. Got an estimate on needed repairs to our
mausoleum this
> week....we're over $25,000. If the engine in one of our mowers were to
blow up
> today, we'd be looking at a few thousand dollars in expenses. We've got
$2000
> to $4000 in repairs to our pioneer stones and foundations that need to be
done
> because our forefathers who sold graves for $25.00 also poured foundations
> only six to twelve inches thick to hold a 1/2 to 1 ton stone. All of our
drives
> need gravel and graded. We just replaced our flag pole (ever price one of
> those?) I can go on and on...but I would hate to run into one of those
family
> members complaining about the perpetual care funds not being there to use
and
> having to pay $25.00 a year to help upkeep their families' graves. That
is
> cheap! I just wish my predecessors hadn't promised perpetual care without
> requiring the families to promise perpetual funding.
>
> Sorry I got on my soapbox...I just get frustrated with the overwhelming
work
> that needs to be done in our cemetery and not having the funds to do it.
The
> really sad thing is that there are people in our community who could help
us
> out either now or after they pass away through an endowment, but that
doesn't
> seem to be on anyone's radar screen....except the guy who bought the 20
graves.
> His son is our cemetery president.
>
> I'm not really sure I answered your question, Ernie... Sorry.
>
> Kyle
>
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
>
>
Hello all,
In follow up to the response to Lori Taylor's inquiry regarding the muriatic
acid that was used on the tombstones at the Hopland Cemetery and the
suggestion that Liquid Glass might be an solution to use, I contacted some
folks I know in the monument business here in California.
Below is a response that I received. This man states Liquid Glass is for
interior use only.
Sue Silver
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jed A. Hendrickson" <jed(a)sbmonumental.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 8:05 AM
> Subject: RE: Muriatic acid on historic marble tombstones....
>
>
> > Royce Ann: I did an Internet search and came up with a product called
> > Liquid Glass - a clear resin epoxy. But it is only an indoor product.
> You can visit their website at http://liquidglasscoating.com/
> >
> > I don't think it will solve their problem.
> >
> > Jed A. Hendrickson, CM, AICA
> > Santa Barbara Monumental Co., Inc.
> > 3 N. Milpas St.
> > Santa Barbara, CA 93103
> > 805-966-7373
> > fax 805-564-8296
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Royce Burks [SMTP:raburks@earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 7:06 AM
> > Subject: Fw: Muriatic acid on historic marble tombstones....
> >
Ever heard of anything like this. Royce Ann
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Sue Silver
> > To: Royce Ann Ruhkala
> > Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 7:13 PM
> > Subject: Muriatic acid on historic marble tombstones....
> >
> >
Hi,
This is a note from a gal up in Mendocino County. They are hoping to find
someone to help them at a district cemetery with problems.
"We have had a lot of problems at our little cemetery. One of the worst
things that has happened before we took over is. A worker poured muriatic
acid on the marble stones full strength and I think the only way to save
them would be to polish them all out. But I have heard about something
called liquid glass. From what I have been told, after it has been applied
the stone becomes rock hard again."
Is there someone in the MDA that might be up that way who would be
knowledgeable of such things?"
Thanks,
Sue
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/23/national/23CEME.html?ex=1054699347&ei=
1&en=e602232ff05fa7f1
Above is the web site where I found the New York Times article about
Charlotte NC wanting to move two cemeteries to put in a high speed rail
line.
------------------------
The following article is from Eastman's Online Genealogy Newsletter and is
copyright 2003 by Richard W. Eastman. It is re-published here with the
permission of the author. Information about the newsletter is available at
http://www.RootsForum.com.
-- Move the Dead for a Commuter Rail Line
Charlotte, North Carolina, is considering a plan to move its dead. Writing
in the New York Times, Nick Madigan describes a controversy that involves
local residents and nationwide descendants of the deceased against city
officials and the Federal Transit Administration. The key question is, "Who
owns the land?"
Cemetery plots are purchased, and the families of those buried hold legal
deeds to the land in which family members are buried. However, the city and
the Federal Transit Administration have announced that they will dig up
about 950 of the 45,000 graves to make room for a commuter rail line. To
relatives of the dead, the plan means nothing less than desecration.
The government agencies plan to move the bodies from their "eternal resting
places" to make way for a proposed $371 million, 10-mile light-rail track
that would run along the so-called southern corridor. The northern line,
the commuter track that would affect the cemeteries, has yet to be mapped
out, but a preliminary State Department of Transportation study placed it
along the eastern edge of the cemeteries, next to an existing freight
track. The new line would cut a 100-foot-wide, 1,800-foot-long swath into
the cemeteries, where the first grave was dug in 1853. Officials are also
considering laying down high-speed and Amtrak rails in the same corridor.
A recent visitor to the cemetery, George Salem, has a deed to the plot his
parents bought for $144 in July, 1943. They are now buried in that plot.
"The city says it's their property," Mr. Salem said, "but I've got a deed
that says I own it."
Click here to read the entire article.
"Show me the manner in which a nation cares for its dead, and I will
measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their
respect for the laws of the land and their loyalty to high ideals." -
William Gladstone
---------------------
Sharon Howell
In a message dated 5/26/03 11:37:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lakeview(a)kconline.com writes:
> Upon visiting this cemetery this weekend, I noticed on about 10 grave sites
> were small orange flags. Would anyone have an idea the purpose of these
> flags? They were not in any order, but were on grave sites that needed repair.
> One of the orange flags was placed on the grave site of an ancestor of mine
> and I am
Connie,
If these were small Orange or Red flags about 3 in. X 3in. on a metal wire,
they were placed there probably by someone who is concerned about repairs. I
have many pictures I have taken of cemeteries I am planning on working on, and
I use these Dayglo flags so I have an idea what I have to do, and not have to
look, or hunt again. I have no idea who did it, but I have no doubt their
intentions are well meaning. I would not be alarmed. Repairs could be in the
planing.
jackbriles(a)aol.com
Jack E. Briles Sr.
Floyd Co. PCRP Coordinator
PO Box 444
New Albany, In. 47151-0444
(812) 282-6585
Upon visiting this cemetery this weekend, I noticed on about 10 grave sites were small orange flags. Would anyone have an idea the purpose of these flags? They were not in any order, but were on grave sites that needed repair. One of the orange flags was placed on the grave site of an ancestor of mine and I am concerned. Should I try to contact the trustee? How do I go about doing that? (I live abt. 45 miles away.) Any ideas? Connie
That is something nice about this site.....the caring and going the extra
mile to help others! ESPECIALLY WHEN DISTANCE IS INVOLVED AND CONCERN FOR
THE CEMETERIES CAN CAUSE ONE MUCH ANXIETY.........RUTH PRIDE,,WHEATLAND.....
Wabash Genealogy Society holding a workshop on Restoration
When May 24th Saturday 9am to 4pm
Where at Old Lagro Cemetery on Clinton Street just off Business Hwy 24
just east of the filling station there on the Hwy about 2 blocks at crest
of the hill turn north go to very top back and turn right and cemetery
down on the left is the Old Lagro Cemetery can't miss us.Might Add the Old
Lagro Cemetery is the 2nd to the Oldest in Wabash County dating back to
1840'.
Bring pack lunch your own drink and wear old clothes and shoes bring
gloves and bring empty spray bottle and soft scrub brush.
Come and join the fun of the day learning restoration Tomb stones etc.
With an instructor M Davis
Hope to see alot yous coming .
And hope and pray it don;t rain on this day.
Thank you Wabash Genealogy Society.Wabash , Indiana
Shiloh will be holding its annual Memorial Day celebration on Sunday May 25 2003. The program is at 1:00, and we will be having a potluck dessert smorgasbord afterward. The first camp meeting was held in 1817. The present church was built in 1847. We were incorporated in 1927 and placed on the National Register of Historical Places in 1982.............................and we're still goin'!
The last couple of years have seen the reinterrment of Rev. War veteran, Luther Adams, of Wilhoit Cemetery Hall of Shame infamy, refurbishment of the meeting house, improvement of security, establishment of a pet cemetery, updating and correcting our grave lists, installing a memorial garden and general beautification of the landscape. We will also be soon joining the Ireland Historical Society and Lemmons Church and Cemetery on an Ireland Indiana History website thanks to Jasper Communications, Inc. If you have Dubois history contributions you would like to contribute, please contact me.
Please join us if you can; we'd love to have you.
MaryAlice Parks
Marilynn,
Give me a day or two to check into this. I know that the cemetery was
formerly owned by the IOOF and they sold it and to a private concern. The
IOOF sold several cemeteries that they owned in this area, and I think a
few months ago we had some discussion on here about this happening all over
the state.
I would think with the present cemetery laws that a private concern would
need to meet perpetual care fund requirements in order to purchase it from
the IOOF. I'll do some checking next week and let you know what I find.
Ernie
At 03:05 PM 05/17/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Could someone please assist me with this situation regarding Maple Hill [MH]
>cemetery in Princeton?
>
>My elderly mother just called and is VERY upset with them for not providing
>maintenance. Apparently at one time it was Odd Fellows owned, but no more
>and the money deposited in the perpetual care fund is long gone.
>
>Apparently someone destroyed the yews planted at my g'parents grave..been
>there since 1966...leaves haven't been raked for several years and the
>owners' wife told my mother she has to prove our family owns the plots...how
>could we bury our deceased family members if we didn't own the plots???
>
>My mother is rather feisty and raked up all the leaves and bagged them then
>dumped them at the office at MH!!! Of course...they are not happy with her
>and she is not happy with them...at least its mutual!! THEN my mother
>"discovered" a base on which it appears there may have been a plaque [perhaps
>military] installed and then removed...but the base remains and now she is
>demanding to know if there is a body buried on our family plot.
>
>I am here in NM and cannot hop the next plane back to deal with this ...
>suggestions/comments/advice/dos and don'ts.......as soon as possible please.
>
>Many thanks!
>
>Marilynn in NM
>
>
>==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
>If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
Could someone please assist me with this situation regarding Maple Hill [MH]
cemetery in Princeton?
My elderly mother just called and is VERY upset with them for not providing
maintenance. Apparently at one time it was Odd Fellows owned, but no more
and the money deposited in the perpetual care fund is long gone.
Apparently someone destroyed the yews planted at my g'parents grave..been
there since 1966...leaves haven't been raked for several years and the
owners' wife told my mother she has to prove our family owns the plots...how
could we bury our deceased family members if we didn't own the plots???
My mother is rather feisty and raked up all the leaves and bagged them then
dumped them at the office at MH!!! Of course...they are not happy with her
and she is not happy with them...at least its mutual!! THEN my mother
"discovered" a base on which it appears there may have been a plaque [perhaps
military] installed and then removed...but the base remains and now she is
demanding to know if there is a body buried on our family plot.
I am here in NM and cannot hop the next plane back to deal with this ...
suggestions/comments/advice/dos and don'ts.......as soon as possible please.
Many thanks!
Marilynn in NM
Any of you that might like to get in on this from Brown Co. might contact
Jeanette or the Brown Co. prosecutor direct. I am going to send the
prosecutor the Web page in case he is not aware of it. I will try to get
some more details from Jeanette and post them. Diana Mahan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeanette Richart" <jamvrich(a)kiva.net>
To: <DECKARD-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 10:27 PM
Subject: [DECKARD] Fleetwood Cemetery information and updates
Subject: Fleetwood Cemetery
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 13:56:29 -0500
Dear Fleetwood Cemetery Family,
This is an update on the Scalpeli case. I believe we have reached an
impasse on plea negotiations and we will have to go to trial on this matter.
There seems to be a falling out between Scalpeli and Lunn over either money
or the way the case is being handled, and both Scalpeli and Lunn have asked
that Lunn be fired and that Scalpeli be appointed a public defender to
represent him at trial. The judge has not ruled on that issue.
Nevertheless, the case has been continued again. We are now set for October
1 at 9:00 a.m.
In my conversations with counsel and in my attempts to settle the case,
Lunn indicated that the defense would include an argument that we don't
really know that the cemetery was actually where the headstones were placed.
Maybe someone in the 1920s moved the headstones 100 feet to the east. I
don't think that would fly as a defense, but the delay gives me the
opportunity to close that out. I'll be hiring a firm from St. Louis to use
ground penetrating radar to actually identify grave shafts (as opposed to
relying on the location of the headstones.) This is a non-invasive
procedure, and this firm comes highly recommended.
I'm sorry for the continued delay. Again, I appreciate your patience.
Jim Oliver
Brown County Prosecutor
P.O. Box 1008
Nashville, IN 47448
(812) 988-5470
fax (812) 988-5521
oliverjr(a)bcingov.us
Hello all, thanks to Katherine Dill and Jeannie Regan-Dinius, Walt, Micki, LA and all other others who made this past weekend such a success. It was a great experience, and a wonderful learning time. It was great to be among so many other people interested in cemeteries. Looking forward to the next workshop.
My eight year old daughter gave me a Mother's Day paper she did in school, it was a flower and she was to write something about her mother on each petal. Along with "My mom bakes me cookies" and "Mom and I go for walks" was "My mom works in a graveyard." Best thing I could have seen on her list! I hope that her daughter will be able to say the same about her someday.
Rhonda Stoffer
Everything and everyone at the workshop were top rate. A wonderful job by all
and a great group of participants. I can't wait for the next one.
Jane Kesslar
L.A.
Thanks for the links to the Star story.
Theresa
--- "L.A. CLUGH" <clugh_la(a)msn.com> wrote:
> Morning everyone,
> Here's a couple of links from the Indy Star today on
> the workshop.
>
http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/3/042529-5943-015.html
>
http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/7/042527-9897-015.html
>
> Katherine, John and Jeannie really did a nice job
> setting this
> day up. I really enjoyed learning new information
> and
> I always enjoy meeting folks from around our great
> state.
> The members of the Church were wonderful too.
> I'm looking forward to next year.
>
>
> You can call me Wind whipped,
> :-)
> WW.L.A.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Walters" <graveyardgroomer(a)skyenet.net>
> To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 4:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [INPCRP] workshop
>
>
> > Thanks Theresa,
> > It was a great group of participants also.
> >
> Walt
> >
> >
> > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> > Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we
> will never know.
> >
> >
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we
> will never know.
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
The Cemetery Restoration Workshop sponsored by the IHS
& the DHPA-DNR was wonderful. Thank you to Katherine
Dill, John Harris, Micki & John Walters, Daniel Faris,
LA Clugh, Jeannie Regan-Dinius, Tom Swinford, Vince
Hernly, The Fairfield Friends Meeting of Camby,IN, &
the Mooresville Public Library.
Theresa Berghoff
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
In a message dated 5/8/03 9:38:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
sianoil(a)hotmail.com writes:
> Check this out including the links to other sites
>
> http://darkfiber.com/tomb/
>
>
Jon,
The site is really different. Never heard of anything like any of them.
jb502000(a)aol.com
Jack E. Briles Sr.
Floyd Co. PCRP Coordinator
PO Box 444
New Albany, In. 47151-0444