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Hello all,
I have need of some advice. A frequent patron of the Indiana Room here came in and said she had found a tombstone. She had been telling a friend of hers for several years that the stone step by his garage was a tombstone. The stone was there when he bought the house 17 years ago. They turned it over last week, and it is a military tombstone for a CW soldier. After a couple of days research, we found it belongs in the IOOF cemetery here in Marion. Now called the Historic Estates of Serenity, the IOOF is a very old, very large cemetery, still in use today. I called the cemetery sexton, told him about the stone and asked if we could put it back with the soldier's grave, it is marked with a granite stone so it isn't an unmarked grave. The sexton said they would have to install it for insurance reasons, and then said what he would do was lay it face up on the ground in concrete. I, of course, said "NO YOU WON'T". He was somewhat taken aback that I would disapprove of this, and I !
said the stone would deteriorate, and it would not be able to be removed from the concrete. He said he would install it up right, if there was room where it wouldn't be in the mower path. I told him we would clean the stone, and he advised me to use bleach. I again said "NO YOU DON'T". He said he had had good luck with bleach, also scouring powder and a biodegradable cleaning solution used with a power washer. He several times mentioned that he hates marble. He also told me he had repaired several old stones with 5 minute epoxy and a professional product called Akem. He refuses to install the stone we have in the ground unless it is put into a concrete base that encases the stone. He says that tamping the ground and putting the military stones in the dirt doesn't work, and the stones will lean. Mark Davis and I went to the cemetery and looked at the military replacement stones he had installed in the concrete, and also where the stone we have needs to go. We seem to have 3 !
options that we can think of:
1. Not put the stone back, and the person who's property has the stone considers the stone "his property" and doesn't want the stone put back in an unsafe manner that might cause damage to it in the future. We could possibly store the stone in the library's museum collection.
2. Go in a night and install the stone the right way, and see how long it takes them to notice its there.
3. Find a descendant and see if they can persuade the sexton to install the stone correctly. I have traced the soldier's grand son to 1994 when he died, still working on finding more relatatives.
Does anyone have any suggestions? Since the IOOF is a private cemetery, is there a way to make them use the proper techniques to install and repair stones. I appreciate any help any one can give.
Rhonda Stoffer
Head of Indiana History and Genealogy Services
SUE:
I AM GLAD FOR YOU TO FINALLY FIND YOUR RELATIVE.
I ALSO AM SEARCHING FOR MY GRANDMOTHER WHO DIED IN 1911. HER NAME WAS
"EDITH ELIZABETH (nee FLINN) ROCKWELL AND SECOND HUSBAND NAME WAS WILSON".
I HAVE NO LEADS, JUST DEAD ENDS. SHE WAS IN A TUBERCULOSIS SANITARIUM IN
WALES, WISCONSIN UNTIL JULY THEN NOTHING. HER SISTER WAS A PHYSICIAN IN
WABASH COUNTY WHERE MY GRANDMOTHER WAS BORN AND RAISED AND LIVED IN HER
EARLY MARRIED LIFE. SHE AND HER HUSBAND DIVORCED IN 1909-1910 WHICH WAS
UNHEARD OF IN THAT TIME. AFTER THAT SHE MOVED AROUND SELLING MAGAZINE
SUBSCRIPTIONS HAVING AREAS OF COLLECTION IN DIFFERENT STATES. I HAVE
CHECKED WITH THE STATE OF WISCONSIN FOR A DEATH NOTICE AND THEY HAVE NO
RECORD.
I HOPE I CAN BE A LUCKY AS YOU AND FIND HER AS I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR
SEVERAL YEARS.
JOAN WRAY
TIPTON COUNTY
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sue Noe" <c_snoe(a)msn.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 11:55 PM
Subject: [INPCRP] Judith (Noffsinger) Emerick- Harter Gravesite
> You all will all be happy to know that I have finally found Judith [Judah]
(Noffsinger) Emerick -Harter's grave !!!!!
>
> I have been searching for literally years, as many of you'all know since
I have bugged you relentlessly.
>
> She is in the Mississinewa Cemetery, Mt Vernon Section
>
> Judith
> wife of
> J Harter
> Died
> Aug 10, 1870
> aged..unintelligible
>
> Grave is next to Allen Emerick
>
> The stone is in a very deteriorated state. Broken at the base and lying on
it's side.
>
> No wonder it was not recorded anywhere.
> I am going to see what can be done to fix it up.
>
> I hate to mess with the integrity of the situation too much but it has
already been through a transfer from the original cem anyway so will have to
have the whole thing analyzed.
>
> Thanks to Terri Harris of Houston, TX who has finally located the
gravesite.
>
> allbest
> Susanna Noe
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you
have."
> Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)
>
>
You all will all be happy to know that I have finally found Judith [Judah] (Noffsinger) Emerick -Harter's grave !!!!!
I have been searching for literally years, as many of you'all know since I have bugged you relentlessly.
She is in the Mississinewa Cemetery, Mt Vernon Section
Judith
wife of
J Harter
Died
Aug 10, 1870
aged..unintelligible
Grave is next to Allen Emerick
The stone is in a very deteriorated state. Broken at the base and lying on it's side.
No wonder it was not recorded anywhere.
I am going to see what can be done to fix it up.
I hate to mess with the integrity of the situation too much but it has already been through a transfer from the original cem anyway so will have to have the whole thing analyzed.
Thanks to Terri Harris of Houston, TX who has finally located the gravesite.
allbest
Susanna Noe
I know that it is difficult to determine, from a cursory examination of
location, if the bones are NA UNLESS they are found in an area or at a site
that is already known to be NA. Anyway, DNA and other "examinations" are
invasive procedures and disrespectful. Reality suggests that is still
used....we had a problem here in NM [within the last year] where OMI [Office
of the Medical Investigator] kept the brains of recently deceased NAs who
were autopsied due to a violent death [off the reservation]. Hard to
believe someone believes they are entitled to do this.
Best get off the social justice bandwagon.
Marilynn [NM]
Reading the many comments concerning this subject, I would like to add my comments and perhaps clear up some
ideas.
1. How can a cemetery be abandoned in 1882? As I stated earlier there was a city ordinance stating that as Nov. 22, 1864 there could no longer be any burials in the Old City Cemetery or anywhere else in town. All burials were to be in the new Greenwood Cemetery. Unfortunately, the old cemetery fell into neglect and sand drifted over it sometimes 16 to 20' high (this is dune country). Every effort was made in the late 1870's and early 1880's to remove all graves and stones to Greenwood. A difficult task with the enormous amount of sand and equipment available to move it in that time period. That is why the term "abandoned" was used.
It was thought at the time that all graves were removed and reinterred.
2. The actual site where the bones were found were not within the parameters of the original cemetery. They were found up near the street and the actual boundaries of the cemetery as given by Isaac C. Elston began approximately 200' south of the street near where they were found. So,
in deference to those digging, they were not digging on the
site of the original cemetery.
3. The subject of arsenic for embalming..since there were no longer any burials there after 1863-64 it is highly possible
that the practice of using arsenic in embalming had not become a common practice in the local cemeteries.
4. The DNR said they no longer use any invasive practice
to study the bones, like DNA or carbon dating, nothing that
will comprise the bones.
Pat
Angela....
Id of bones is done through DNA; there are other ways of course that predate
DNA which determine age and we all know [or should know] who was here first!!
Marilynn in NM Indian Country
In a message dated 4/25/03 10:15:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
wpharris(a)netnitco.net writes:
> They will then be returned to be properly reinterred in a local cemetery.
>
> Pat
>
> Pat,
Will the bones be kept in the order they were recovered or will there
be a possibility of some being mixed to the point some may have 3 arms? Were
they kept in seperate groups as recovered, or put in boxes Mixed ? Does
anyone have any idea. Or will they say. This has great importance as far as
Re-Burial. Also does anyone know if some type of service is held on re-burial
of these Pioneers as Is done with Loving care by Native Americans as it
should be. ?
jackbriles(a)aol.com
Jack E. Briles, Sr
Floyd Co. PCRP Coordinator
PO Box 444
New Albany, In. 47151-0444
(812) 282-6585
Pat:
I'm glad you spoke to the DNR and found out they plan on reinterring the
remains. My comments were made because this is not always the case. It
usually takes some pressure by people like ourselves before they complete the
process and return the remains to their new final resting place. I'm glad to
hear that efforts were made to reinter the remains when the new cemetery was
opened in 1864, and I'm sure it was a difficult task to locate each and every
one of them. For those of you who haven't been involved in this topic in the
past, there are many on this list, and plenty of archived posts on this list,
that fully demonstrate the frustration many of us have had when the DNR
studies these remains and then fails to properly follow through with
returning the remains back to the earth to continue their alleged eternal
rest. Since I am assuming you are in or around the Michigan City area, or
have ties to it, I hope you will stay on top of the status of this issue to
ensure the DNR does what they've implied to you they will. If you don't,
they may not place such a high priority on doing so....
Kyle
County Coroners in Indiana can have human remains "curated." It happened in
Delaware Co. in 1997 when I found bones on top a grave. Although they (bones)
belong back in the cemeteries it usually won't happen. It's to expensive for re-
interment in some individuals opinion. Now if the bones are "native-american"
that can be a different story altogether. Lawsuits can be pursued with hefty
fines in they are "native-american" bones. If not the bones could get out in
the black market in Indiana. Perhaps sold to the highest gothic devil
worshipping bidder. Unfortunately there is a market for human remains.
This is the wording of the plaque in the news article:
"OLD GRAVEYARD Isaac C. Elston dedicated this site to Michigan City in 1835 as "public buryal
ground. Abandoned and vacated as such December 11, 1882. Site acquired by Board of Education to build Isaac C. Elston High School in 1909. Became Isaac C. Elston Junior High School in 1925. That
building was razed in 1980. Present building, Performing arts Center, erected 1981."
There were some 400 burials here from the city and surrounding area. It was used until Nov. 26, 1864
when an ordinance was enacted forbidding burial of the dead at any other place within the city limits
except at the new Greenwood Cemetery where lots were put up for sale on Aug. 14, 1864.
In the late 1870's and early 1880's the disinterring of the bodies and reinternment of the bodies in
Greenwood Cemetery was in progress. Every effort was done to remove all bodies. The task was
difficult as this was dune country and the newspapers carried stories of people having to dig thru 16 to 20 feet of sand to reach the tombstones and the bodies. Probably some were missed as newspapers carried the stories of a few bones being found during the building of the high school and again when the performing arts center was built. Unfortunately, some of the laws we have today were not in force then.
So, this was no attempt to dismantle a cemetery. It was thought the site was no longer a viable final resting place. However, with the plaque on the premises, more research should have been done before construction began.
I spoke with the DNR today and they are handling the remains very respectfully and plan to have an
archeaologist on site whenever they allow construction to resume. They want to study the bones
to determine their age and the possibility of any pre settlement era. They will not violate them by any carbon dating or DNA processes. They will then be returned to be properly reinterred in a local cemetery.
Pat
Can I say this now? that I had my yard ( you know, the place beside my
house.......)
totally torn up yesterday, yard lights ripped out, statues busted, I could go
on.... the culprits were 3 year old twins........ ( 2 doors down, I WAS ONLY
GONE FOR 30 MINUTES!!!) But this (was) something alive and pretty.... can you
imagine what will happen in 5-10 years with these two?! I even called Child
Protection Services (where was the mother)? Of course, food and and roof over
their heads are their concerns... We have GOT to start with education, and
letting out voice out other than here.... (Which is a good start!) I think we
are making progress and getting noticed.... but it is up to US to take it past
that step. Urge your legislatures for an study establishment of an interim
study committee ........
all for now.
Donna Tauber
Sue Silver wrote:
> I don't know about anyone else, but I'm frankly tired of seeing our society
> reduce respect for the dead to the fine art of examining the bones of our
> ancestors that were disrespectfully disinterred simply because our present
> residents believe they have more of a right to the land than those who
> settled the damn land for them in the first place.
>
> If any of the current population had the guts and gumption half those people
> had, they'd be stopping the wholesale dismantling of the cemeteries of our
> heritage.
>
> Call me old fashioned. But no one will ever call me insensitive to the
> social dignity of the past.
>
> I am certain now that I was born in the wrong century.
>
> Sue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sharon Howell" <sshowell(a)indy.net>
> To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:52 PM
> Subject: RE: [INPCRP] Worker uncovers human remains
>
> > Gee, Sue, you really know how to stir up a hornet's nest, don't you.
> >
> > It is good that someone lets people know that digging up ancient bones
> > isn't a harmless activity. I just wonder if this letter will be
> published.
> >
> > I just checked my file on LaPorte County, and no one submitted this site
> as
> > a former cemetery location. So, I've just found another one to add to my
> > list.
> >
> > Sharon Howell
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you
> have."
> > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)
> >
> >
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer
> Cemeteries Restoration Project only.
Gee, Sue, you really know how to stir up a hornet's nest, don't you.
It is good that someone lets people know that digging up ancient bones
isn't a harmless activity. I just wonder if this letter will be published.
I just checked my file on LaPorte County, and no one submitted this site as
a former cemetery location. So, I've just found another one to add to my
list.
Sharon Howell
By the way, could anyone read the plaque the news article featured? I'd be
really interested to know what it said and how they portrayed the demise of
the Michigan City Cemetery that the founding father donated to the city.
Gee, sure glad I don't live there....
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Howell" <sshowell(a)indy.net>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:52 PM
Subject: RE: [INPCRP] Worker uncovers human remains
> Gee, Sue, you really know how to stir up a hornet's nest, don't you.
>
> It is good that someone lets people know that digging up ancient bones
> isn't a harmless activity. I just wonder if this letter will be
published.
>
> I just checked my file on LaPorte County, and no one submitted this site
as
> a former cemetery location. So, I've just found another one to add to my
> list.
>
> Sharon Howell
>
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you
have."
> Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)
>
>
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm frankly tired of seeing our society
reduce respect for the dead to the fine art of examining the bones of our
ancestors that were disrespectfully disinterred simply because our present
residents believe they have more of a right to the land than those who
settled the damn land for them in the first place.
If any of the current population had the guts and gumption half those people
had, they'd be stopping the wholesale dismantling of the cemeteries of our
heritage.
Call me old fashioned. But no one will ever call me insensitive to the
social dignity of the past.
I am certain now that I was born in the wrong century.
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Howell" <sshowell(a)indy.net>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:52 PM
Subject: RE: [INPCRP] Worker uncovers human remains
> Gee, Sue, you really know how to stir up a hornet's nest, don't you.
>
> It is good that someone lets people know that digging up ancient bones
> isn't a harmless activity. I just wonder if this letter will be
published.
>
> I just checked my file on LaPorte County, and no one submitted this site
as
> a former cemetery location. So, I've just found another one to add to my
> list.
>
> Sharon Howell
>
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you
have."
> Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)
>
>
Anyone up for a bet????
Mine is that the DNR removes the bones for "further study" and takes them to
their lab in Indianapolis, so that they can grace the shelves in bankers
boxes until someone screams loud enough. All of this even though we know the
site is an abandoned cemetery and bones were recovered there in the past...
What's to study, you ask? Good question.
Kyle
"The cemetery had been abandoned in 1882." This is a quote from the
article. How can a cemetery be "abandoned"? Did some of the residents of
this cemetery decide to leave and not tell the others in 1882?
Kyle, I'll not take that bet. I only bet when I know I'll win.
Brian E. Smead
Terre Haute, Indiana
----- Original Message -----
From: <KidClerk(a)aol.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Human Remains Uncovered
> Anyone up for a bet????
>
> Mine is that the DNR removes the bones for "further study" and takes them
to
> their lab in Indianapolis, so that they can grace the shelves in bankers
> boxes until someone screams loud enough. All of this even though we know
the
> site is an abandoned cemetery and bones were recovered there in the
past...
> What's to study, you ask? Good question.
>
> Kyle
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> If you know of some good cemetery related links, send them to
LoisMauk(a)usa.net.
>
>
Dear Ms. Senter:
The above titled article is very interesting. I was especially intrigued by the following passage:
"LaPorte County Coroner Dr. Vidya Kora said it was determined the human remains are very old because of the condition they are in, and because the site was once a graveyard."
In California, unless all human remains are relocated to a new burial site, a place remains a cemetery, strictly dedicated to cemetery purposes.
With human remains still interred in the ground, it sounds to me like those kids are going to be dining not in a cafeteria, but in a graveyard. Not what I would consider altogether appetizing. It is doubtful all the remains will be found and it is likely many graves remain under the school structures already.
By the way, from about 1865 to about 1910, arsenic was the number one ingredient for embalming the dead. It was a process developed during the Civil War to send the soldier's home for burial. Wonder how parents will feel knowing their children are attending school in arsenic-laden school grounds.
Sue Silver, State Coordinator
California Saving Graves
Website: http://www.usgennet.org/usa/ca/state
What is needed is a list a acceptable groundcover for pioneer cemeteries that
will be multi-functional. Groundcovers can protect and beautify. Native
flowering plants can also be reflective what the cemeteries had in abundance at
the time our pioneers lived.