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no charges have been filed, just the vandalism report, and I don't really think
it's going anywhere. The Sheriffs Department has supported our efforts 100%,
supplying us with work release workers, and helping us tremendously after a REAL
vandalism at Greensboro Cemetery. The thought of still bugs me, but hopefully
these people realize how much attention can or could come of this. I still have
to believe some good will come of this, even if it's only for all of us to
realize and understand how these laws in our state need to get changed.
Donna
jon andrews wrote:
> So clear me up on this. Have charges actually been filed? Anybody can file a
> complaint. That doesn't mean anything. I doubt if the prosecutor ever acts
> on this and if he does I can guarantee you, nobody is going to jail!
> Jon Andrews
>
> >From: "Lois Mauk" <loismauk(a)insightbb.com>
> >Reply-To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
> >To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
> >Subject: [INPCRP] Vandalism Complaint
> >Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 23:14:50 -0400
> >
> >I exchanged several messages from work today with Donna Tauber. She
> >forwarded me the Henry Co. Sheriff's report filed on 9/19/2002
> >alleging "vandalism" in connection with the cemetery cleanup on
> >9/17/2002.
> >
> >Knowing that you guys would be interested in reading this first-hand
> >and with Donna's permission, I have uploaded the 2-page report as a
> >PDF file to:
> >http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/2002-09-19-VandalismComplaint.pdf
> >
> >Lois
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> >If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have."
> Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)
With respect to any and all, we have to work together. I appreciate a
good sense of humor, but many don't, and if anything gets mistaken for
a radical element its makes us take steps backward. Thats
especially true in this movement.
Lee Creed
Parke, Putnam counties
we have four of our cemeteries that were right in the path of the storm. We
are still digging out here, but for the most part all the utilities are back
on, and the people are being cared for that need help the most. It will
take quite a while to get back to "normal" but the people in this town have
been wonderful about pulling together in such a hard time. We are hoping
that the government will help with the initial cemetery clean up...the trees
are huge! We will utilize them to the fullest before they pull out and move
on. I will be in contact with the sextons of the cemeteries to see what
they need the most help with, and then form a plan. I will be sure and
holler for help when the time comes to deal with the repairs! Thanks for
your concern.
Helen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donna Tauber" <dtauber(a)kiva.net>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Time to try to make a change
> I agree Helen, there are way to many other places we can do for now, these
> people surely can't be around forever anyway! How is the storm damage
there,
> have you been able to access it?
>
> stonehugger wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry, but what these people think IS important. We need to educate
> > them sometimes, and change what they think by giving them information,
but
> > ultimately, what these people think will make the difference. We can
not
> > change the laws by ourselves, it takes a larger section of the public
than
> > just us. I don't think we are tricking them and "flattering their petty
> > egos". We are treating them as human beings and with respect. Do you
have
> > a different meaning of the golden rule where you come from? If we are
> > denied access to a cemetery, and it is not threatened with destruction,
we
> > still know where it is. We may not be able to document it every way we
would
> > like to, but we still have to accept the wishes of the landowner. If we
> > treat him/her with respect, and try a gentle approach, we can usually
get
> > them to understand the reasoning behind what we want to do. We have
only
> > been denied access to a couple of cemeteries here, we know they are not
> > threatened, and we know eventually, they will change hands and hopefully
the
> > new owner will be more willing to work with us. We have more than
enough
> > cemeteries in our county that need work, we can concentrate our efforts
> > elsewhere until the time is right to approach the owner again.
> > Helen Wildermuth
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Laurie Morris" <lmorris(a)wt.net>
> > To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 8:34 PM
> > Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Time to try to make a change
> >
> > > > Why does anyone
> > > > want to put a tight claim on a cemetery which they neither care for,
nor
> > > > respect.
> > >
> > > Just because they can. (Unfortunately.) There are plenty of people
in
> > the
> > > world who like throwing around whatever weight they think they have,
> > however
> > > small. I agree with your approach, Jack--if you're gonna outsmart
these
> > > folks, you have to out-think them, which means going back to the old
> > adage,
> > > "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." Flatter
their
> > > petty egos by bringing them on board and making them think their input
is
> > > important. They have to think that any legislation passed is going to
be
> > in
> > > their best interests. Schmooz 'em out the wazoo til you get what you
> > > want. Go, Hoosiers!
> > >
> > > Sounds like war to me.
> > >
> > > Laurie Morris
> > > mailto: lmorris(a)wt.net
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> > > This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer
> > > Cemeteries Restoration Project only.
> > >
> >
> > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of
> > "UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST(a)rootsweb.com
> > or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST(a)rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version)
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> THIS IS A CEMETERY -----
> "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families
> are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is
> undisguised. This is a cemetery.
> "Communities accord respect, families bestow reverence,
> historians seek information and our heritage is thereby enriched.
> "Testimonies of devotion, pride and remembrance are carved
> in stone to pay warm tribute to accomplishments and to the life -
> not the death - of a loved one. The cemetery is homeland for family
> memorials that are a sustaining source of comfort to the living.
> "A cemetery is a history of people - a perpetual record of
> yesterday and sanctuary of peace and quiet today. A cemetery
> exists because every life is worth loving and remembering - always."
> --Author unknown -- Seen at a monument dealer in West Union, IA
>
I agree with Helen (although Laurie's take is more like what I'd like to
do...).
If we can't show respect for the living, how can we ever expect to instill
respect for the dead?
Sue Silver
California
----- Original Message -----
From: "stonehugger" <stonehugger(a)insightbb.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Time to try to make a change
> I'm sorry, but what these people think IS important. We need to educate
> them sometimes, and change what they think by giving them information, but
> ultimately, what these people think will make the difference. We can not
> change the laws by ourselves, it takes a larger section of the public than
> just us. I don't think we are tricking them and "flattering their petty
> egos" [LAURIE'S WORDS !!/s.silver]. We are treating them as human beings
and with respect. Do you have
> a different meaning of the golden rule where you come from? If we are
> denied access to a cemetery, and it is not threatened with destruction, we
> still know where it is. We may not be able to document it every way we
would
> like to, but we still have to accept the wishes of the landowner. If we
> treat him/her with respect, and try a gentle approach, we can usually get
> them to understand the reasoning behind what we want to do. We have only
> been denied access to a couple of cemeteries here, we know they are not
> threatened, and we know eventually, they will change hands and hopefully
the
> new owner will be more willing to work with us. We have more than enough
> cemeteries in our county that need work, we can concentrate our efforts
> elsewhere until the time is right to approach the owner again.
> Helen Wildermuth
>
>
We had an exciting day last Tuesday....especially in that one cemetery. Mr.
Barnes contacted me Saturday morning and wanted me to come out and talk with
him about the problem. His wife is one of those kind that doesn't leave the
house on Friday the 13th and is a little tilted in her beliefs, but she is
entitled to her own beliefs just like everyone else. Mr. Barnes went with me
to the cemetery and we had a long talk about the problems dealing with the
cemeteries. He thought what we are doing is great. He told me if he had
known I was involved this wouldn't have happened. He told me about all of
the vandalism going on in that part of the county. He has to maintain a post
office box in order to receive mail, vandals have destroyed about a dozen of
his mail boxes. I told him I understood his concerns completely. His
neighbor is the one who informed him that there were a bunch of jail inmates
in his cemetery that day. She thought because we all had RED United Fund Day
of Caring t-shirts on we were convicts or something similar. ( I'll suggest
a different color next year) He mentioned that he had been advised by
several people that nobody owns a cemetery, they belong to the people, even
if it is on his property. His attorney advised him that he would be opening
a can of worms because of the screwed up cemetery laws of Indiana. I have
gotten to know this couple over the last couple of years, they are good
people, some call them strange, rednecks, hillbillies and such, but if
that's the way they want to live, that's there business, I don't believe the
terrorist have caused that right to be taken away yet. So... I hope this all
blows over. They were invited to the next cemetery commission meeting, but I
doubt very seriously if they will attend.
I would like to thank all of you for the support given Donna and I over this
issue. I learned that you never assume that because you were there before,
you will be welcome the next time...especially if you don't notify them
ahead of time.
UEB
INPCRP
Henry Co., IN
In a message dated 9/23/02 12:36:31 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
tres257(a)yahoo.com writes:
> Maybe this is a silly question, but it's something
> I've been wondering about. Has anyone ever bought back
> a cemetery that has been declared abandoned & turned
> over to a Township Trustee?
> Theresa
>
Theresa, It does'nt need to be deeded (But it would be nice if it were)
If it is a cemetery in existence before Feb. 2 8, 1939, and is without
Funds it becomes the responsibility of the Township Trustee to Maintain it.
"I. e"., Fence, Clean, Straighten and Level stones and remove Noxious and
Detrimental Growth. But what can the Trustee do if the Property Owner denies
access to the Cemetery. It can be deeded to the Trustee, but it doesn't have
to be for them to maintain it. That is already the Law. But a Law is of no
use on the books when the Trustee or his representatives are not allowed on
the property. I'm trying to impress everyone with the fact that a Law is on
the books that cannot be implemented because the owner of the surrounding
property will not grant permission for the Trustee to do at absolutely no
cost to the property owner. I believe most respect the cemeteries, but are
afraid there will be a parade to the site after they allow it to be cleaned.
And how would anyone get to a cemetery like some we have here in Floyd County
1,500 feet or more from the nearest rd. across fields. Who would pay for the
rd. Some had a rd to them a Hundred years ago, but they don't exist anymore.
And the Present owners don't want them. The more you think about it, the
worse it gets. Is there really an Answer??? I would walk in to clean a
cemetery, but not if I'm not wanted on the property.
Jack E. Briles, Sr.
Floyd Co. INPCRP Coordinator
PO Box 444
New Albany, Floyd Co.In.
47151-0444
(812) 282-6585
E-mail jb502000(a)aol.com
In a message dated 9/23/02 7:46:41 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
KidClerk(a)aol.com writes:
> ....but the cows, bulls, and sheep are a
> different story, and usually could care less why I'm there.
>
> -Kyle
>
>
>
> Kyle,
That is exactly why we need the input of the Property owners with the
Cemeteries. To see what they think would work, or wouldn't. We stand a better
chance of getting a good Law passed if we have the Majority of the "Owners"
of the cemeteries on our side and willing to allow access under a Law they
don't think to intrusive on their rights. It's not like they never knew a
cemetery was on the property when they bought it. We have to impress on them
how they would feel if they went out to a cemetery where their family is
buried, only to find it unkempt, and they were denied the right to visit
anymore. They would want it cleaned, and their visitation rights restored.
Just because they purchased the lots with stipulations they were
happy with at the time, doesn't mean anymore then it does, when you consider
the time frame that the Pioneer cemeteries were began back when times were
much different and there was no "Landlock"even considered. It was"Come visit
anytime, and help keep the "Graveyard" clean. In fact when I was young,
visits to a Burial site of a relative or friend was Expected. Why does anyone
want to put a tight claim on a cemetery which they neither care for, nor
respect.
Jack E. Briles, Sr.
Floyd Co. INPCRP Coordinator
PO Box 444
New Albany, Floyd Co.In.
47151-0444
(812) 282-6585
E-mail jb502000(a)aol.com
Jack,
If the old roads that once existed were used over a long period of time by
family and friends of the family (read PUBLIC), didn't a prescriptive
easement become acquired for the purpose of going to and coming from the
cemeteries? In California that would be the case (but we'd have to fight
for it!).
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: <Jb502000(a)aol.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Who Owns the Cemetery??
> In a message dated 9/23/02 12:36:31 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> tres257(a)yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> > Maybe this is a silly question, but it's something
> > I've been wondering about. Has anyone ever bought back
> > a cemetery that has been declared abandoned & turned
> > over to a Township Trustee?
> > Theresa
> >
>
> Theresa, It does'nt need to be deeded (But it would be nice if it
were)
> If it is a cemetery in existence before Feb. 2 8, 1939, and is without
> Funds it becomes the responsibility of the Township Trustee to Maintain
it.
> "I. e"., Fence, Clean, Straighten and Level stones and remove Noxious and
> Detrimental Growth. But what can the Trustee do if the Property Owner
denies
> access to the Cemetery. It can be deeded to the Trustee, but it doesn't
have
> to be for them to maintain it. That is already the Law. But a Law is of no
> use on the books when the Trustee or his representatives are not allowed
on
> the property. I'm trying to impress everyone with the fact that a Law is
on
> the books that cannot be implemented because the owner of the surrounding
> property will not grant permission for the Trustee to do at absolutely no
> cost to the property owner. I believe most respect the cemeteries, but are
> afraid there will be a parade to the site after they allow it to be
cleaned.
> And how would anyone get to a cemetery like some we have here in Floyd
County
> 1,500 feet or more from the nearest rd. across fields. Who would pay for
the
> rd. Some had a rd to them a Hundred years ago, but they don't exist
anymore.
> And the Present owners don't want them. The more you think about it, the
> worse it gets. Is there really an Answer??? I would walk in to clean a
> cemetery, but not if I'm not wanted on the property.
> Jack E. Briles, Sr.
> Floyd Co. INPCRP Coordinator
> PO Box 444
> New Albany, Floyd Co.In.
> 47151-0444
> (812) 282-6585
> E-mail jb502000(a)aol.com
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of
England
> and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli:
> "Show me the manner in which a nation or community
> cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical
> exactness the tender mercies of its people, their
> respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty
> to high ideals."
>
>
Angela:
I think you are all on the right track as far as some new legislation goes.
I can't say that I've ever been worried about being arrested, as I never
figured any police agency would pursue a case after finding out I was there
to visit my ancestor's graves....but the cows, bulls, and sheep are a
different story, and usually could care less why I'm there.
-Kyle
Good morning listers...
One idea that might help in some cases would be to notify the Abstract
companies when we have found a situation like the one Cris just noted,
especially if you can find out which abstract company prepared the deed. You
might be asking why? This would probably work in the smaller counties, but
abstract companies many times keep their own property records. When I was
tracing my cemetery's history, I was telling my local abstract researcher
about it and that I was having trouble finding where our mausoleum was deeded
after being built in 1912. An hour later, I had a box on my desk containing
the abstract company's record of every deed from that section of land. In
the old days, when abstracts were done and not simply title insurance, the
abstract companies would copy on one of their own forms the deed information,
including the legal description, and file it in their records by township,
range, and section. I was amazed. Then instead of having to go through all
of the deeds again, they only went back to where they last left off and
started from there...and then updated the abstract accordingly. Well,
nothing has changed much...when the same abstract company is used when a
property is sold, they go back and check from the last time it was done, they
don't start all over again. In my case, we have only one abstract
company...so they do most, if not all, of the work for property in our
county. If someone were to point out to them that there was an error made
100 years ago and a cemetery exception was inadvertantly left off of a deed,
I'd bet they would make a note in their records in the event that property
ever sold and they did the new title work. After all, it's their butt out
there on the line and they don't want anything to come back and haunt them.
Like I said...this would probably only work in your smallest communities, and
would only be effective for future deed transactions, but it might be worth
some thought for some of you on this list.
-Kyle
Jack,
I think that is a wonderful suggestion to get the property owners involved. We should want them to feel that they can be part of the solution. That we do respect their rights and their property.
I want the right to visit my great-great-great-great-great grandfather who is buried in a grassy area in the middle of a farm field. And not worry that I will be arrested for trespassing if I do so. It is ridiculous that we cannot visit a loved one or a descendant because it is on a landlocked parcel or on "private property" .
O.k. maybe I am being naive. Maybe I am dreaming too.
Angela Tielking
............... Maybe we should ask
Lois if she can come up with a way to approach the Legislature (After the
Election) to see if we can get some logical approach to access these
cemeteries without having to worry about going to jail, or paying a fine for
trespassing. Maybe we, the members of the List should approach some of the
more civilized property owners with these Land Locked cemeteries on their
property, and see if they have any ideas, or suggestions as to what they
would be willing to agree to, or accept. All at no cost to them. And with
respect for their Rights and Property. I guess I'm dreaming again!
Jack E. Briles, Sr.
Floyd Co. INPCRP Coordinator
PO Box 444
New Albany, Floyd Co.In.
47151-0444
(812) 282-6585
E-mail jb502000(a)aol.com
==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
Cemetery: (n) A marble orchard not to be taken for granite.
Cris,
Is this lady paying taxes on the Jones Burying Ground?
Frankly, I think no one should "own" a cemetery. It seems we run into this
problem often. The cemetery "owner" refuses clean-up and restoration. The
cemetery "owner" may "own" the land in which the cemetery sits, but they
don't own the people who are buried there!
Angela Tielking
----- Original Message -----
From: "cherokee" <cherokee(a)lightbound.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Who Owns the Cemetery??
> The way our Auditor (a funeral home director) looks at it is it doesn't
matter who the deed was written to. The fact that it existed as a separate
parcel is the key I think. Most of the cemeteries I am marking do not
"belong" to anyone. Their property cards list the cemetery itself as the
owner and most of those the township trustees take care of. Kind of like
what Crossmann did with the Lewelling graves, the auditor said they did not
own them so he forced them to quitclaim their rights so when the final plat
for Section 2 came through, the auditor's office assigned a new parcel
number to the cemetery as well as to each new lot, but the "deeded owner" is
the Lewelling Family Cemetery.
>
> My biggest challenge will possibly see the light before the end of the
year. I think I have mentioned this before, but there is a cemetery called
the Jones Burying Ground in Flatrock twp. It is horrible looking and
visible from the nearby much-traveled Nortonburg Rd. The parcel it
officially sits on is owned by a lady who for all other purposes is a nice,
well-liked individual who works for the county like I do. However, she
refuses to even let the township trustee come and restore or touch any of
it. She says she has talked to her lawyer when first approached about 10
years ago and he told her it was her right to refuse. I HAVE THE 1849 DEED
where Mr. Nicholas Jones, Sr., a Revolutionary War Veteran, gives 30 acres
to his son, Nicholas Jr. At the end of the deed are these words, which I
found so elegant and appropriate, I placed them on top of a photo of the
current cemetery and it is in the back sleeve of the binder in the Auditor's
office:
>
>
> The within deed and conveyance is made to Nicholas Jones junior with the
distinct and express understanding that I have reserved a certain lot or
piece of ground for the use of the public as a burying ground, 150' deep &
50' wide lying and being immediately on the North line of said conveyed
piece of land and known by the name of Jones's grave yard or burying ground,
and the same is to be for the use of the public as a burying place and is to
be used for no other purpose so long as time may last and all and any who
may wish to bury on the same with full ingress and egress to the same for
the purpose of a grave yard and it is in nowise to be considered as conveyed
to the said Nicholas Jones Jr. or his heirs. Notwithstanding is not
reserved in the within Deed but to remain as a public burying ground as long
as time lasts. <from Deed N/405>
>
>
> I think it speaks mountains, don't you? Because he put it at the end of
another deed, it never got transferred to the next deed and so on. I get
calls on a regular basis about this one since the 150' x 50' is about the
size of a large pickup truck and has only 2 standing headstones, neither one
that of the Veteran Jones. I estimate it to contain at least 30 graves
and the property owner even admitted to me she was aware that it probably
was that big as well, but it wasn't excepted from her deed so she owns it.
It also does not still go to the north line (the road) anymore and she makes
sure a combine's-width exists there each year.
>
> I think the lawmakers need to sit down with US and look at examples of
good-intentions-gone-bad cases. I think that a law that declares once ANY
human remains have been place in the ground appropriately and for the intent
of a cemetery, no matter what the year, it becomes a landmark and that
ground should never be considered as viable ground for ANY other purpose.
Churches even, must respect the hallowed ground and it cannot be sold to
anyone, only care transferred from the original landowner at the time the
first body was buried to the township trustee or cemetery association.
>
> Of course, the egress/ingress laws you have been discussing would be very
important to establish at the same time, to allow access to it.
>
> Cris
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Jb502000(a)aol.com>
> To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 11:24 AM
> Subject: [INPCRP] Who Owns the Cemetery??
>
>
> > Cris, The Deed to the cemetery I just wrote to you about has never been
> > changed since it was written in 1826. The Property owner on who's
property
> it
> > sits on the corner of does not own it because it is Excepted out. How
can
> > this be Deeded to The Trustee. The 3 original Trustees it was deeded to,
I
> am
> > sure have passed away. Cris, or anyone, do you have any suggestions.
> >
> > Jack E. Briles, Sr.
> > Floyd Co. INPCRP Coordinator
> > PO Box 444
> > New Albany, Floyd Co.In.
> > 47151-0444
> > (812) 282-6585
> > E-mail jb502000(a)aol.com
> >
> > ______________________________
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> Please do not send queries through this list.
Just found this on the scheduale for Ball State's
UniverCity 2002 Community Fesitival.
Archeology and Preservation Work in Muncie's Pioneer
Cemeteries
Research presentation
Sponsor: College of Sciences and Humanities
Friday Sept. 27, 2002 9:00a.m. - 10:00a.m.
On the BSU campus McKinley Ave. across from the
carillon tower tent red 12b in the UniverCity Tent City
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
Maybe this is a silly question, but it's something
I've been wondering about. Has anyone ever bought back
a cemetery that has been declared abandoned & turned
over to a Township Trustee?
Theresa
--- Lois Mauk <loismauk(a)insightbb.com> wrote:
> Dear Jack:
>
> It's important we don't confuse "Trustees" of a
> cemetery or church
> with "Township Trustees".
>
> But, as a short answer to your question, I believe a
> "Commissioners'
> Deed" could be used to convey the cemetery property
> to the Township
> Trustee when the cemetery trustees (or their
> successors) or a church
> no longer exists.
>
> Lois
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Jb502000(a)aol.com>
> To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 12:24 PM
> Subject: [INPCRP] Who Owns the Cemetery??
>
>
> > Cris, The Deed to the cemetery I just wrote to you
> about has never
> been
> > changed since it was written in 1826. The Property
> owner on who's
> property it
> > sits on the corner of does not own it because it
> is Excepted out.
> How can
> > this be Deeded to The Trustee. The 3 original
> Trustees it was
> deeded to, I am
> > sure have passed away. Cris, or anyone, do you
> have any
> suggestions.
> >
> > Jack E. Briles, Sr.
> > Floyd Co. INPCRP Coordinator
> > PO Box 444
> > New Albany, Floyd Co.In.
> > 47151-0444
> > (812) 282-6585
> > E-mail jb502000(a)aol.com
> >
> >
> > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what
> kind of people
> you have."
> > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
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> "UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST(a)rootsweb.com
> or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST(a)rootsweb.com (for
> DIGEST version)
>
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> Cris,
> You make a very Eloquent point. From the way I read what was on the deed,
> it is a cemetery, not owned by her, and there is a Direct Ingress/Egress
> right of way. A lawyer, regardless of what everyone thinks is right only
> about half the time. I think he made the statement based strictly on what
> he was told, not knowing the true facts personally. This is quite common
> for Lawyers. If it goes to court and he wins he gets Paid, If he Loses he
> gets Paid.
>
> We, the List and any other interested parties should get ready
> to push for a right of entry Law as soon as we can get the time. Let's face
> it, we now see it is a law that is long overdue. The Laws make the Township
> Trustee Responsible on the one hand, and he is prevented from carrying out
> his Lawful duty on the other. A Direct conflict of Interest. He's Damned if
> he does, and Damned if he don't.
>
> Jack E. Briles, Sr.
> Floyd Co. INPCRP Coordinator
> PO Box 444
> New Albany, Floyd Co.In.
> 47151-0444
> (812) 282-6585
> E-mail jb502000(a)aol.com
>
The way our Auditor (a funeral home director) looks at it is it doesn't matter who the deed was written to. The fact that it existed as a separate parcel is the key I think. Most of the cemeteries I am marking do not "belong" to anyone. Their property cards list the cemetery itself as the owner and most of those the township trustees take care of. Kind of like what Crossmann did with the Lewelling graves, the auditor said they did not own them so he forced them to quitclaim their rights so when the final plat for Section 2 came through, the auditor's office assigned a new parcel number to the cemetery as well as to each new lot, but the "deeded owner" is the Lewelling Family Cemetery.
My biggest challenge will possibly see the light before the end of the year. I think I have mentioned this before, but there is a cemetery called the Jones Burying Ground in Flatrock twp. It is horrible looking and visible from the nearby much-traveled Nortonburg Rd. The parcel it officially sits on is owned by a lady who for all other purposes is a nice, well-liked individual who works for the county like I do. However, she refuses to even let the township trustee come and restore or touch any of it. She says she has talked to her lawyer when first approached about 10 years ago and he told her it was her right to refuse. I HAVE THE 1849 DEED where Mr. Nicholas Jones, Sr., a Revolutionary War Veteran, gives 30 acres to his son, Nicholas Jr. At the end of the deed are these words, which I found so elegant and appropriate, I placed them on top of a photo of the current cemetery and it is in the back sleeve of the binder in the Auditor's office:
The within deed and conveyance is made to Nicholas Jones junior with the distinct and express understanding that I have reserved a certain lot or piece of ground for the use of the public as a burying ground, 150' deep & 50' wide lying and being immediately on the North line of said conveyed piece of land and known by the name of Jones's grave yard or burying ground, and the same is to be for the use of the public as a burying place and is to be used for no other purpose so long as time may last and all and any who may wish to bury on the same with full ingress and egress to the same for the purpose of a grave yard and it is in nowise to be considered as conveyed to the said Nicholas Jones Jr. or his heirs. Notwithstanding is not reserved in the within Deed but to remain as a public burying ground as long as time lasts. <from Deed N/405>
I think it speaks mountains, don't you? Because he put it at the end of another deed, it never got transferred to the next deed and so on. I get calls on a regular basis about this one since the 150' x 50' is about the size of a large pickup truck and has only 2 standing headstones, neither one that of the Veteran Jones. I estimate it to contain at least 30 graves and the property owner even admitted to me she was aware that it probably was that big as well, but it wasn't excepted from her deed so she owns it. It also does not still go to the north line (the road) anymore and she makes sure a combine's-width exists there each year.
I think the lawmakers need to sit down with US and look at examples of good-intentions-gone-bad cases. I think that a law that declares once ANY human remains have been place in the ground appropriately and for the intent of a cemetery, no matter what the year, it becomes a landmark and that ground should never be considered as viable ground for ANY other purpose. Churches even, must respect the hallowed ground and it cannot be sold to anyone, only care transferred from the original landowner at the time the first body was buried to the township trustee or cemetery association.
Of course, the egress/ingress laws you have been discussing would be very important to establish at the same time, to allow access to it.
Cris
----- Original Message -----
From: <Jb502000(a)aol.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 11:24 AM
Subject: [INPCRP] Who Owns the Cemetery??
> Cris, The Deed to the cemetery I just wrote to you about has never been
> changed since it was written in 1826. The Property owner on who's property
it
> sits on the corner of does not own it because it is Excepted out. How can
> this be Deeded to The Trustee. The 3 original Trustees it was deeded to, I
am
> sure have passed away. Cris, or anyone, do you have any suggestions.
>
> Jack E. Briles, Sr.
> Floyd Co. INPCRP Coordinator
> PO Box 444
> New Albany, Floyd Co.In.
> 47151-0444
> (812) 282-6585
> E-mail jb502000(a)aol.com
>
> ______________________________
In a message dated 9/22/02 12:18:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
skifri(a)qtm.net writes:
> They approached a local stone mason prior to their
> task of cleaning and he recommended and gave them some fine grain sand
> paper
> to use on the stones.
>
> If you have recieved an answer, disreguard this E-mail and DELETE
I am a "Local Stone Mason" here in Floyd County. And yes I have used
sandpaper on repair work on Limestone and Marble over the Years. I have a Lot
of Experience in doing this that I learned on Stone in Buildings. Especially
on Fire Restoration. I'm sorry, but the Stone Mason is apparently not
familiar with the Frailty of Tombstones that have stood alone for over a
Hundred Years in a cemetery. If he is familiar with them he would never tell
an individual totally unfamiliar with these stones to use Sandpaper. The Face
will come off Quickly due to the depth of the weathering
Light Sandpaper could theoretically remove a 1/4 inch if the weathering
(Roughness) is that deep
How would you determine when enough, is enough sanding? And if
someone sees you doing it they may try on a stone not in as good a shape as
the ones you described. I will say something here I should not say. I have no
Objections to doing this to the BACK, or EDGES of the stones. But NOT on the
FACE. We all know water and dirt will run off of a fairly smooth surface much
better than a rough one, The Face should be washed with a mild soapy solution
containing no acid of any kind. It would be advisable to have maybe 5 gallon
of water and a garden sprayer to pump up and with pressure, immediately flush
the Face of the Stone making sure the dirt runs to at least the Base.
Some people use Fine Sandpaper on the Faces of Stones carved very
Deeply. Remember it is still removing the Face. If the carving is Very
Shallow NO ONE should use sandpaper on the FACE. Two Cleanings might ruin the
stone for the next Generation. I can't stop anyone from anything. On Line
it's hard to even explain. Let your conscience be your guide. Think of the
Future. Good Luck
Jack E. Briles, Sr.
Floyd Co. INPCRP Coordinator
PO Box 444
New Albany, Floyd Co.In.
47151-0444
(812) 282-6585
E-mail jb502000(a)aol.com
In a message dated 9/22/02 12:39:05 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
loismauk(a)insightbb.com writes:
> Dear Jack:
>
> It's important we don't confuse "Trustees" of a cemetery or church
> with "Township Trustees".
>
>
Lois,
I corrected that in an E-mail to Sue immediately after I sent the first one.
I realized I had not made "Trustees" clear, I realized it could be confusing
after I sent the First one out.
Jack
To all:
We're digging out here in Martinsville from Friday's storms. As you
know there was extensive damage to homes, businesses, power lines and
especially trees. We're concentrating at this point on the important
things: shelter and utilities for all of the living here in this
neighborhood, and as always, the community is pitching in to clean up
and restore things back to a semblance of normality. Amazingly, there
were remarkably few injuries considering the extensive damage. We are
blessed.
HOWEVER ... when the dust settles and the power's back on ... our three
largest cemeteries, Hilldale, South Park and Greenlawn, all have
extensive damage, with huge trees down, debris everywhere and many
monuments toppled. And that's just what we can see. We can't really
get in to check things out closely and we're too busy anyway, but we
thought you all would like to know that at some point in the future,
there is a good possibility we'll be working with the cemetery
associations to get the wood and debris cleared and the stones
repaired. We haven't contacted them yet, but will be doing so in the
next week or so. We'll keep you all posted.
Dale Drake and Helen Wildermuth
In a message dated 9/22/02 11:33:40 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
ssilver1951(a)jps.net writes:
> Wouldn't title to land that was original set aside to "trustees" revert to
> the public if there were no successor trustees?
>
>
Good Question Sue. I hadn't thought about that, I'll check tomorrow.
*Note- These were Church Trustees. The church ceased about 1880
Jack E. Briles, Sr.
Floyd Co. INPCRP Coordinator
PO Box 444
New Albany, Floyd Co.In.
47151-0444
(812) 282-6585
E-mail jb502000(a)aol.com