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Madonna,
It would help if you let us know what county you want help in.
There are around 20 county coordinators that can fix tombstones.
This is a link to the 92 counties. Several have webpages.
http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/pcrpselector.html
L.A. ~Tippecanoe Co.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Mdf1959(a)aol.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:34 AM
Subject: [INPCRP] gravestone restoration
> Does anyone know of someone who restores old gravestones?
>
> Madonna Davis Marks
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
>
There are two I know of.
Here's a link to Mark Davis' site to show what his work is like:
http://www.geocities.com/md9105/StoneSaverCemeteryRestoration.html?102917288
3930.
Could some put her in touch with Mr. Walters? I can't seem to find his
email address at this early hour.
Sue Silver
----- Original Message -----
From: <Mdf1959(a)aol.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:34 AM
Subject: [INPCRP] gravestone restoration
> Does anyone know of someone who restores old gravestones?
>
> Madonna Davis Marks
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
>
>
In a message dated 12/7/02 11:43:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ssilver1951(a)jps.net writes:
> Just try to put yourself in her place after searching for 8 years and
> finally finding where her immigrant ancestor is buried and then in 8 short
> days or less finding out that his stone was removed for "beautification."
Sue, and the List,
May 5th 2000 I saw and heard about the Bulldozing of "Old St Peters "
cemetery in Taylor Twp., Harrison Co. Indiana to avoid the Priest having to
worry about maintenance or "Beautification" on a Catholic Church cemetery. I
was just as shocked to find out about this having happened in August, 1965 as
the people who talked to me about it later that saw it on TV and read about
it in the Newspapers. No one believed it at first. I remember when I put the
Information on the List, everyone was really shocked to hear that a Priest
would do something like that. I think it was almost unheard of at that time.!
( Or most were in Denial ) Well, now it comes as a terrible shock for an
even greater number of people to find out that was not the only incident like
that to happen. I personally am not shocked by these new revelations of
cemetery Destruction. I saw the unbelievable in May 5, 2000.
After I got over the "Initial" shock, nothing after that
surprised me. And we worry about a farmer removing 3 or 4 stones from his
field of deceased who had no connection to him, either Personally, or
Religiously. WHY, when we as a group get so upset, do the politicians who can
remedy a lot of this (Not the Catholic) small family plot destruction not
seem to concern themselves. I can answer my own question, Political Action
Groups, Farm lobbyists, and just don't give a D - - - as long it's not their
family Plot. They all plan on being buried in a nice well kept cemetery (They
passed Laws to make sure of this) that has enough funds to Perpetuate the
cemetery forever. Well, I have news for them, A lot of Graves (Not Remains)
have been moved that were supposed to be permeant. As has been stated the
last couple of days, when money stands in front of those in charge of any
cemetery, that cemetery IS going to be moved, no matter what religion.
Although it does seem that the Catholic Church is leading the
Pack. If you are Catholic, this is not directed at you, only the
"Responsible" (Joke) ones in charge. I quickly loose respect for any church
of any denomination that will destroy our Historic cemeteries. Now, In Boston
the Church may go Bankrupt to avoid it's Responsibilities. So what does a few
cemeteries more or less matter. They shuffled Priest around that were using
their powers to do worse than destroy a cemetery. There is no comparison
between a small Family Burial Plot disappearing, and a Political Donation.
You know which one wins. Like it or not, this is my opinion.!!!!!!
jb502000(a)aol.com (Jack E Briles Sr)
PO Box444
New Albany, In. 47151-0444
Thanks for posting the link, Jon. I checked it out. It is a very
impressive site, and the burial search is a great feature for genealogists.
But here are some of the things that I was not impressed by:
From Histories for St. Peter's and Calvary Cemeteries, respectively:
"Catholics believe it is necessary to be buried in sanctified ground in
order to return to life on Judgment Day. Once a priest has consecrated a
cemetery, its ground is as sacred as the church building, itself....In St.
Louis County parish cemeteries that were on the same parcel of land as the
church have survived, those that were not were abandoned with the passage of
time. A Catholic cemetery that has disappeared is the St. Martin's Cemetery,
on Old Bonhomme Road at the intersection with Price Road. St. martin's
Cemetery had served St. Martin's Catholic Church in Clayton (now called St.
Joseph's), but the cemetery was sold to the City of Olivette for a school
and park and the bodies were re-interred at Calvary Cemetery." I guess
cemetery ground is sacred until the highest bidder comes along, eh?
"In 1853, Archbishop Peter Richard Kenrick purchased 323-acre "Old Orchard
Farm" northwest of the city from Kentucky politician Henry Clay. Kenrick
established his own farm on half of this acreage and dedicated the other
half to the development of a new cemetery. As the cemetery grew, more
acreage was added to its site. Part of this property had once been used as
an ancient burial ground by Native Americans and soldiers from nearby Fort
Bellefontaine were also interred there. After its purchase, these remains
were collected and buried in a mass grave under a large crucifix."
Under "General Rule #1" (on Cemetery Rules page):
"The Catholic Cemeteries of The Archdiocese of St. Louis is a non-profit
corporation wholly owned by The Archdiocese of St. Louis, operated for the
religious and charitable purposes of the Catholic Church through the burial
and memorialization of the faithful departed. It serves as a witness of The
Church's compassion for the living and reverence for the dead."
Oh, and if any of you visit the site, don't miss the Preamble on the
Cemetery Rules page--it would gag a maggot.
Laurie Morris
mailto: lmorris(a)wt.net
----- Original Message -----
From: jon andrews <sianoil(a)hotmail.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 7:42 PM
Subject: [INPCRP] Archdiocese of St. Louis
>
>
>
>
>
> To all those who have taken an interest in the discussion about St. Louis
> Catholic Cemeteries, be sure and check out the following website.
>
> http://stlcathcem.com
>
>
> It just so happens that the Archdiocese of St. Louis has one of the
"nicest"
> websites on cemeteries that I have ever seen. Really something though,
that
> under Calvary Cemetery or St. Peter and Pauls or any other that there is
no
> mention of any 1,000+ tombstones being removed by the church in the
1950's.
> In fact, it is all just about enough to make you choke viewing their site
of
> 15 cemeteries complete with histories, photo gallery, slide show and
burial
> search. I was also surprised to find under Rules of the Catholic
Cemeteries
> that they established in 1860 an Endowed Care Fund to aid in taking care
of
> them. Although, they are pretty up front about this, "For the owners of
the
> older, unendowed lots, the graves of long ago are those of your relatives
> and are your responsibility." Oh, and the church has none?
> And don't forget to check out their Testomonial section where they pat
> theirselves on the back for a job well done. Also, it seems that Calvary
> Cemetery was vandalized this summer. Kind of ironic what Msgr. Robert
> McCarty says of the vandals, "I think they're depraved. It's not just your
> ordinary person who would steal from the dead!" Really!
> Believe me, I'm not on a Catholic bashing either. I'm married to one. and
I
> think everyone is at fault. Our whole society! Just try to put yourself in
> her place after searching for 8 years and finally finding where her
> immigrant ancestor is buried and then in 8 short days or less finding out
> that his stone was removed for "beautification."
> If any of you wish to contact them directly with comments or questions
they
> have a link for that, too. And by the way, I don't think we will be
donating
> to help pay for their website, either.
> Jon Andrews
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> Cemetery: (n) A marble orchard not to be taken for granite.
>
To all those who have taken an interest in the discussion about St. Louis
Catholic Cemeteries, be sure and check out the following website.
http://stlcathcem.com
It just so happens that the Archdiocese of St. Louis has one of the "nicest"
websites on cemeteries that I have ever seen. Really something though, that
under Calvary Cemetery or St. Peter and Pauls or any other that there is no
mention of any 1,000+ tombstones being removed by the church in the 1950's.
In fact, it is all just about enough to make you choke viewing their site of
15 cemeteries complete with histories, photo gallery, slide show and burial
search. I was also surprised to find under Rules of the Catholic Cemeteries
that they established in 1860 an Endowed Care Fund to aid in taking care of
them. Although, they are pretty up front about this, "For the owners of the
older, unendowed lots, the graves of long ago are those of your relatives
and are your responsibility." Oh, and the church has none?
And don't forget to check out their Testomonial section where they pat
theirselves on the back for a job well done. Also, it seems that Calvary
Cemetery was vandalized this summer. Kind of ironic what Msgr. Robert
McCarty says of the vandals, "I think they're depraved. It's not just your
ordinary person who would steal from the dead!" Really!
Believe me, I'm not on a Catholic bashing either. I'm married to one. and I
think everyone is at fault. Our whole society! Just try to put yourself in
her place after searching for 8 years and finally finding where her
immigrant ancestor is buried and then in 8 short days or less finding out
that his stone was removed for "beautification."
If any of you wish to contact them directly with comments or questions they
have a link for that, too. And by the way, I don't think we will be donating
to help pay for their website, either.
Jon Andrews
_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
I addressed my last email to the following email address:
cathcem(a)pickpro.com
This was the contact address for the website mentioned and listed in the "friend's" email message.
Hope no one was confused.
Sue Silver
Here is a comment from a friend whose wife has just been devastated by learning the grave stone of her ancestor was bulldozed from one of your cemeteries:
"To all those who have taken an interest in the discussion about St. Louis Catholic Cemeteries, be sure and check out the following website.
http://stlcathcem.com
It just so happens that the Archdiocese of St. Louis has one of the "nicest" websites on cemeteries that I have ever seen. Really something though, that under Calvary Cemetery or St. Peter and Pauls or any other that there is no mention of any 1,000+ tombstones being removed by the church in the 1950's. In fact, it is all just about enough to make you choke viewing their site of 15 cemeteries complete with histories, photo gallery, slide show and burial search. I was also surprised to find under Rules of the Catholic Cemeteries that they established in 1860 an Endowed Care Fund to aid in taking care of them. Although, they are pretty up front about this, "For the owners of the older, unendowed lots, the graves of long ago are those of your relatives and are your responsibility." Oh, and the church has none? And don't forget to check out their Testomonial section where they pat theirselves on the back for a job well done. Also, it seems that Calvary Cemetery was vandalized !
this summer. Kind of ironic what Msgr. Robert McCarty says of the vandals, "I think they're depraved. It's not just your ordinary person who would steal from the dead!" Really! Believe me, I'm not on a Catholic bashing either. I'm married to one. and I think everyone is at fault. Our whole society! Just try to put yourself in her place after searching for 8 years and finally finding where her immigrant ancestor is buried and then in 8 short days or less finding out that his stone was removed for "beautification." If any of you wish to contact them directly with comments or questions they have a link for that, too. And by the way, I don't think we will be donating to help pay for their website, either."
I think it would only be fitting if you would add it to your testimonials. I, too, have problems with some of the things that are taking place at historic Catholic cemeteries in California. Judging from my experience and this friend's experience, I think you need to re-read your introductory statement. The departed Catholic faithful we seek to help have already been more than harmed by their own Church.
Father Denis Keaney, formerly the Chaplain at Folsom State Prison in California and now deceased, is the only member of the Catholic order to ever acknowledge to me that the Church has it's faults. I'm sad to say that I am glad Father did not live to see what is going on within and without the church today.
I have taken the liberty to copy a couple of internet email list groups to which I belong. If you click "Reply All" on any response you may wish to give, they will all be able to read it.
Most sincerely,
Sue Silver, President
El Dorado County Pioneer Cemeteries Commission
Cameron Park, California
Website: www.usgennet.org/usa/ca/county/eldorado/
Sue, everything you wrote is right on. Well said.
The Franklin quote that several here use in their footer has never seemed
more appropriate or true--"Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what
kind of people you have."
Geez, how depressing.
Laurie Morris
mailto: lmorris(a)wt.net
----- Original Message -----
From: Sue Silver <ssilver1951(a)jps.net>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] catholic cemeteries
> Laurie,
>
> Your friend's reaction is most typical in people who have never been
> "touched" by a cemetery situation. I generally find people will nod their
> heads and give you a "cluck cluck," but nothing more. These are the same
> types of people who will scream bloody murder when it happens to their
> family's graves.
>
> It is very true that our government faces many challenges to serve the
> living. They see cemetery problems as less than significant in the larger
> realm of things. What they haven't gotten around to understanding is
that,
> while the dead have no voice or vote, their plight very much affects their
> living descendants and the communities at large. Generally they will only
> hear from the living relatives and usually in less than impressive numbers
> of people. Hence, cemeteries are perhaps the last items on anyone's list
of
> priorities. No one within them can call the politician once a week to bug
> him.
>
> You can also see this ignorance of cemeteries in your history accounts of
> states and counties. Every place had a cemetery. Yet there are only rare
> and infrequent examples of where a cemetery of a town or community is ever
> mentioned. All the books about the California gold rush that have been
> published mention the thousands of people (20% in the first five years)
who
> died within the first six months of arriving here. Few mention even one
> cemetery where one of those early gold seekers is buried. At the Coloma
> Cemetery where gold was discovered and they all flocked to at first, there
> is not one grave stone from 1848 or 1849. The earliest marked grave, I
> believe, is 1850.
>
> As for what we have found in regard to the Catholic Church (yes and other
> denominations as well, though our information deals specifically with the
> Catholics), it is sad to see such a powerful and (at one time) brave
> institution crumbling under the weight of it's own errant bureaucracy.
That
> is exactly what is happening to it.
>
> After decades of great prominence (as evidenced in the early 1960s with
the
> election of John F. Kennedy) and spiritual "leadership", the Catholic
Church
> is finding that all that garbage they swept under the carpet is now coming
> back to haunt them. Of all entities in this world, one would think a
Church
> would know that you cannot hope to deceive forever, no matter what the
> motivation. The truth will be known. (By the way, it is no coincidence
> that when we learned the Church might turn little St. Michael's Cemetery
> over to the County who had helped destroy portions of it, we told the
Bishop
> of Sacramento Diocese we felt that was a little like turning the child
over
> to the child molester. Little did we know THAT was a problem also.)
>
> If our religious leaders and counselors cannot get their acts together,
what
> kind of future does this nation have? While I consider that I have a
> personal relationship with God and don't often attend a formal church
> setting, how many others in this country are just floating through life
only
> turning to God during crisis times? I know there are good people out
there
> raising good children for the future of their families and this country.
>
> As I do for my cemeteries, I only pray that God is watching over all of us
> to help us find the strength and perseverance to somehow get back on
track.
>
> A church that does not install a doctrine that any member caught or
reported
> to be abusive toward children is immediately reported to the civil
> authorities, does this nation a great disservice. They are not above the
> law - none of us are. If a church will not even comply with legislative
> prohibitions that pertain to ALL people who will harm a child, how can we
> expect them to cease being the desecrators of the burial places of those
who
> can no longer complain?
>
> What we do on behalf of these voiceless pioneers of our country is a
noble,
> decent thing. But it is not enough. We must work to enact legislation
that
> provides for stiffer penalties and requires law enforcement agencies to
> treat vandalized cemeteries as it would any other crime scene. They
should
> dust for fingerprints, they should collect anything that might yield DNA
> samples, and they must canvas the surrounding neighborhood (in urban
areas)
> to try to find reluctant witnesses. And, they must add cemetery vandal
> apprehension to the list of eligible crimes for reward monies.
>
> It will have to be those of us who care about these places to make this
> happen.
>
> Sue Silver
> CA
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Laurie Morris" <lmorris(a)wt.net>
> To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 7:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [INPCRP] catholic cemeteries
>
>
> > I had a rather disheartening experience tonite with a friend, who
happens
> to
> > be Catholic. I was telling her about the stories related by Jon, Jack
and
> > Sue about the Catholic cemeteries, and then the conversation turned to
the
> > same kinds of things done by municipalities and individuals. She was
> > curiously nonplussed. Her general reaction seemed to be, "Well, it
> > apparently goes on all the time and there's nothing you can do about it;
> you
> > can't fight the funeral home industry." I argued the point with her, of
> > course, giving examples of what many people are trying to do to change
> > things, particularly at the legislative level, but I don't think she saw
> it
> > as a particularly important issue either legally or morally. I was
pretty
> > dumbfounded, to say the least.
> >
> > But I think the topic is important on at least two counts--the first
being
> > the actual destruction of cemeteries; and the second, and perhaps even
> more
> > important one, being the absence of common decency, respect, and (dare I
> say
> > it?) spirituality inherent in such acts. To me it is almost
> > incomprehensible that priests, bishops, and ministers could act in ways
> that
> > so blatantly betray the trust of the people they are supposedly called
to
> > serve. Given the recent expose of the Catholic Church re child abuse, I
> > suppose I should not be so shocked.
> >
> > I don't mean to offend anyone on the list who is Catholic; I have no
> > particular loyalties to any religion, and am not a proponent of bashing
> any
> > specific religious organization. But given that the Catholic Church has
> > historically been a very powerful and bureaucratic entity, I tend to
agree
> > with the suggestion made by several that such actions were probably
> > sanctioned at higher levels. This may well have happened in other
> > denominations as well. I would be very interested to know the current
> > policies of churches generally with respect to the cemeteries under
their
> > jurisdiction. And I also agree that the public should be made aware of
> such
> > violations of decency for profit, particularly when perpetrated by those
> the
> > public generally views as trustworthy.
> >
> > I would love to see a news magazine, "60 Minutes" for example, do a
piece
> on
> > this. Given the current climate of problems in the church, they just
> might
> > be interested. Or, like my friend, maybe not.
> >
> > Laurie Morris
> > mailto: lmorris(a)wt.net
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: stonehugger <stonehugger(a)insightbb.com>
> > To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 5:12 PM
> > Subject: [INPCRP] catholic cemeteries
> >
> >
> > > This article generated a wide range of emotions in me, shock, outrage,
> > > frustration, and an even greater determination to make people aware of
> > what
> > > is happening to our cemeteries. If this had happened today, I hope
the
> > > outcry would be instantaneous, and very loud. Is there any
information
> as
> > > to where the stones are now, and what the cemeteries look like now?
> This
> > > does go to show you how the peoples voices carry across the years.
One
> > > person chose to write this information in the paper, giving us
valuable
> > > clues now as to what happened. That is why documentation now is so
> > > important. Get out there, talk to everyone in your area, and record
all
> > the
> > > information they have.
> > >
> > > Helen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> > > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you
> > have."
> > > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)
> > >
> >
> >
> > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of
> > "UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST(a)rootsweb.com
> > or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST(a)rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version)
> >
> >
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
>
My friend, Knox County Indiana Cemetery Commissioner Bob Hill, allowed as how we live in a society that tolerates disrespect of the living and yet those few folks with an interest in cemetery preservation are naive enough to believe that there should be respect for the dead?
I guess that statement has stuck with me. I am reminded of it when the similarities between the way our society has learned to be insensitive to abhorrent behavior and the manner in which some communities manage their cemeteries are compared.
Rich Green
4338 Hadley Court
West Lafayette, IN 47906
Office: (765) 464-8735
Home: (765) 464-8095
----- Original Message -----
From: Sue Silver
To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] catholic cemeteries
Laurie,
Your friend's reaction is most typical in people who have never been
"touched" by a cemetery situation. I generally find people will nod their
heads and give you a "cluck cluck," but nothing more. These are the same
types of people who will scream bloody murder when it happens to their
family's graves.
It is very true that our government faces many challenges to serve the
living. They see cemetery problems as less than significant in the larger
realm of things. What they haven't gotten around to understanding is that,
while the dead have no voice or vote, their plight very much affects their
living descendants and the communities at large. Generally they will only
hear from the living relatives and usually in less than impressive numbers
of people. Hence, cemeteries are perhaps the last items on anyone's list of
priorities. No one within them can call the politician once a week to bug
him.
You can also see this ignorance of cemeteries in your history accounts of
states and counties. Every place had a cemetery. Yet there are only rare
and infrequent examples of where a cemetery of a town or community is ever
mentioned. All the books about the California gold rush that have been
published mention the thousands of people (20% in the first five years) who
died within the first six months of arriving here. Few mention even one
cemetery where one of those early gold seekers is buried. At the Coloma
Cemetery where gold was discovered and they all flocked to at first, there
is not one grave stone from 1848 or 1849. The earliest marked grave, I
believe, is 1850.
As for what we have found in regard to the Catholic Church (yes and other
denominations as well, though our information deals specifically with the
Catholics), it is sad to see such a powerful and (at one time) brave
institution crumbling under the weight of it's own errant bureaucracy. That
is exactly what is happening to it.
After decades of great prominence (as evidenced in the early 1960s with the
election of John F. Kennedy) and spiritual "leadership", the Catholic Church
is finding that all that garbage they swept under the carpet is now coming
back to haunt them. Of all entities in this world, one would think a Church
would know that you cannot hope to deceive forever, no matter what the
motivation. The truth will be known. (By the way, it is no coincidence
that when we learned the Church might turn little St. Michael's Cemetery
over to the County who had helped destroy portions of it, we told the Bishop
of Sacramento Diocese we felt that was a little like turning the child over
to the child molester. Little did we know THAT was a problem also.)
If our religious leaders and counselors cannot get their acts together, what
kind of future does this nation have? While I consider that I have a
personal relationship with God and don't often attend a formal church
setting, how many others in this country are just floating through life only
turning to God during crisis times? I know there are good people out there
raising good children for the future of their families and this country.
As I do for my cemeteries, I only pray that God is watching over all of us
to help us find the strength and perseverance to somehow get back on track.
A church that does not install a doctrine that any member caught or reported
to be abusive toward children is immediately reported to the civil
authorities, does this nation a great disservice. They are not above the
law - none of us are. If a church will not even comply with legislative
prohibitions that pertain to ALL people who will harm a child, how can we
expect them to cease being the desecrators of the burial places of those who
can no longer complain?
What we do on behalf of these voiceless pioneers of our country is a noble,
decent thing. But it is not enough. We must work to enact legislation that
provides for stiffer penalties and requires law enforcement agencies to
treat vandalized cemeteries as it would any other crime scene. They should
dust for fingerprints, they should collect anything that might yield DNA
samples, and they must canvas the surrounding neighborhood (in urban areas)
to try to find reluctant witnesses. And, they must add cemetery vandal
apprehension to the list of eligible crimes for reward monies.
It will have to be those of us who care about these places to make this
happen.
Sue Silver
CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurie Morris" <lmorris(a)wt.net>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] catholic cemeteries
> I had a rather disheartening experience tonite with a friend, who happens
to
> be Catholic. I was telling her about the stories related by Jon, Jack and
> Sue about the Catholic cemeteries, and then the conversation turned to the
> same kinds of things done by municipalities and individuals. She was
> curiously nonplussed. Her general reaction seemed to be, "Well, it
> apparently goes on all the time and there's nothing you can do about it;
you
> can't fight the funeral home industry." I argued the point with her, of
> course, giving examples of what many people are trying to do to change
> things, particularly at the legislative level, but I don't think she saw
it
> as a particularly important issue either legally or morally. I was pretty
> dumbfounded, to say the least.
>
> But I think the topic is important on at least two counts--the first being
> the actual destruction of cemeteries; and the second, and perhaps even
more
> important one, being the absence of common decency, respect, and (dare I
say
> it?) spirituality inherent in such acts. To me it is almost
> incomprehensible that priests, bishops, and ministers could act in ways
that
> so blatantly betray the trust of the people they are supposedly called to
> serve. Given the recent expose of the Catholic Church re child abuse, I
> suppose I should not be so shocked.
>
> I don't mean to offend anyone on the list who is Catholic; I have no
> particular loyalties to any religion, and am not a proponent of bashing
any
> specific religious organization. But given that the Catholic Church has
> historically been a very powerful and bureaucratic entity, I tend to agree
> with the suggestion made by several that such actions were probably
> sanctioned at higher levels. This may well have happened in other
> denominations as well. I would be very interested to know the current
> policies of churches generally with respect to the cemeteries under their
> jurisdiction. And I also agree that the public should be made aware of
such
> violations of decency for profit, particularly when perpetrated by those
the
> public generally views as trustworthy.
>
> I would love to see a news magazine, "60 Minutes" for example, do a piece
on
> this. Given the current climate of problems in the church, they just
might
> be interested. Or, like my friend, maybe not.
>
> Laurie Morris
> mailto: lmorris(a)wt.net
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: stonehugger <stonehugger(a)insightbb.com>
> To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 5:12 PM
> Subject: [INPCRP] catholic cemeteries
>
>
> > This article generated a wide range of emotions in me, shock, outrage,
> > frustration, and an even greater determination to make people aware of
> what
> > is happening to our cemeteries. If this had happened today, I hope the
> > outcry would be instantaneous, and very loud. Is there any information
as
> > to where the stones are now, and what the cemeteries look like now?
This
> > does go to show you how the peoples voices carry across the years. One
> > person chose to write this information in the paper, giving us valuable
> > clues now as to what happened. That is why documentation now is so
> > important. Get out there, talk to everyone in your area, and record all
> the
> > information they have.
> >
> > Helen
> >
> >
> >
> > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you
> have."
> > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)
> >
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of
> "UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST(a)rootsweb.com
> or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST(a)rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version)
>
>
==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
I had a rather disheartening experience tonite with a friend, who happens to
be Catholic. I was telling her about the stories related by Jon, Jack and
Sue about the Catholic cemeteries, and then the conversation turned to the
same kinds of things done by municipalities and individuals. She was
curiously nonplussed. Her general reaction seemed to be, "Well, it
apparently goes on all the time and there's nothing you can do about it; you
can't fight the funeral home industry." I argued the point with her, of
course, giving examples of what many people are trying to do to change
things, particularly at the legislative level, but I don't think she saw it
as a particularly important issue either legally or morally. I was pretty
dumbfounded, to say the least.
But I think the topic is important on at least two counts--the first being
the actual destruction of cemeteries; and the second, and perhaps even more
important one, being the absence of common decency, respect, and (dare I say
it?) spirituality inherent in such acts. To me it is almost
incomprehensible that priests, bishops, and ministers could act in ways that
so blatantly betray the trust of the people they are supposedly called to
serve. Given the recent expose of the Catholic Church re child abuse, I
suppose I should not be so shocked.
I don't mean to offend anyone on the list who is Catholic; I have no
particular loyalties to any religion, and am not a proponent of bashing any
specific religious organization. But given that the Catholic Church has
historically been a very powerful and bureaucratic entity, I tend to agree
with the suggestion made by several that such actions were probably
sanctioned at higher levels. This may well have happened in other
denominations as well. I would be very interested to know the current
policies of churches generally with respect to the cemeteries under their
jurisdiction. And I also agree that the public should be made aware of such
violations of decency for profit, particularly when perpetrated by those the
public generally views as trustworthy.
I would love to see a news magazine, "60 Minutes" for example, do a piece on
this. Given the current climate of problems in the church, they just might
be interested. Or, like my friend, maybe not.
Laurie Morris
mailto: lmorris(a)wt.net
----- Original Message -----
From: stonehugger <stonehugger(a)insightbb.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 5:12 PM
Subject: [INPCRP] catholic cemeteries
> This article generated a wide range of emotions in me, shock, outrage,
> frustration, and an even greater determination to make people aware of
what
> is happening to our cemeteries. If this had happened today, I hope the
> outcry would be instantaneous, and very loud. Is there any information as
> to where the stones are now, and what the cemeteries look like now? This
> does go to show you how the peoples voices carry across the years. One
> person chose to write this information in the paper, giving us valuable
> clues now as to what happened. That is why documentation now is so
> important. Get out there, talk to everyone in your area, and record all
the
> information they have.
>
> Helen
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you
have."
> Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)
>
In the late 70s St. Joseph Hospital in Ft. Wayne
brought in a Sister with a reputation as " the tear
down Nun" to guide a hospital expansion project that
took out 1/2 a block of historic houses in the WestEnd
Neighborhood. In recent years the Archdiocese of
Indianapolis tore down a small 100 yr. old gothic
chapel in Holy Cross Cemetery to make room for a new
mausoleum, and St. Bridgets Church to make way for
canal developement. If it's not as old as St. Peter,
there's no sense of history.
Theresa
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
This article generated a wide range of emotions in me, shock, outrage,
frustration, and an even greater determination to make people aware of what
is happening to our cemeteries. If this had happened today, I hope the
outcry would be instantaneous, and very loud. Is there any information as
to where the stones are now, and what the cemeteries look like now? This
does go to show you how the peoples voices carry across the years. One
person chose to write this information in the paper, giving us valuable
clues now as to what happened. That is why documentation now is so
important. Get out there, talk to everyone in your area, and record all the
information they have.
Helen
In a message dated 11/26/02 2:33:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Jackbriles(a)aol.com writes:
> Laurie, GPS (Global Positioning
> Satellites) There are 24 in a Geo Synchronous orbit 22,500 miles out in
> space.
Laurie,
I just reread the E-mail I sent you about GPS. As Rich Green pointed out
about the distance to the (Global Positioning Satellites) Military Satellites
I gave you being wrong, I mistakenly gave you the 22,500 mile Satellites
distance that are for my Home TV Satellite. But whether the Satellites are
22,500 miles and in Stationary Orbit, or 11,000 miles and orbiting, the
Results as I explained them to you are the same, since you pick up only the
GPS Satellites. You don't even have to know how far they are out for the Unit
to work. You are located on Earth. My intent was only intended to give a
brief intro. into the workings of GPS. and not designed to be technical. But
also as Rich pointed out, you should learn as much as possible about anything
you do, whether it be GPS or anything else. Sorry about the mistake in
Mileage. I answered to quickly.
jb502000(a)aol.com (Jack E Briles Sr)
PO Box444
New Albany, In. 47151-0444
we've noticed that here as well
Marge
From: <Jackbriles(a)aol.com>
:
: Marge,
: It's sad to say, but if the cemetery no longer produces income, I have
found
: in southern Indiana they would like for them to disappear. Of course that
: includes most Religions.
:
: jackbriles(a)aol.com (Jack E. Briles)
: New Albany, In.
:
:
: ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
: Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of
England
: and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli:
: "Show me the manner in which a nation or community
: cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical
: exactness the tender mercies of its people, their
: respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty
: to high ideals."
:
In a message dated 12/6/02 10:37:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
yetzkejm(a)qtm.net writes:
> . Although we have an old Catholic cemetery in our township
> that we cannot get the Church to acknowledge ownership. I hope this is not
> representative of the majority of Catholic churches.
> Marge in Michigan
>
>
>
Marge,
It's sad to say, but if the cemetery no longer produces income, I have found
in southern Indiana they would like for them to disappear. Of course that
includes most Religions.
jackbriles(a)aol.com (Jack E. Briles)
New Albany, In.
While we are on the subject... the Vincennes, Indiana, St. Francis Xavier
Basillica ("Old Cathedral") French and Indian Cemetery dating back to 1740 +
or - is a great example, adjacent to the George Rogers Clark Memorial and
just 1 block from my house. There are over 4,000 recorded burials in this
cemetery which "now" covers about 1/2 acre.
They must be stacked in there! Granted that a lot of the burials had wooden
crosses, etc., but there are now a total of 6 stones in this cemetery along
with some 10 more recently placed (nice looking) veterans stones.
When I was a kid running (walking) through this graveyard in the 60's, I
knew every inch of it and it was filled with stones. Where did they all go?
Why? By who?
The Memorial and Lincoln Bridge took most of it in the 30's. They dug up
remains then. In the late 60's the church built a library on part of the WPA
platted cemetery and dug a basement and there was additional construction in
the 70's, 80's and as recent as 2 years ago. They dug up remains, again. As
far as the stones go, I know they did a massive clean-up on at least two
occasions. One was even reported to the DAHP. It seems the Catholic Church
may fall outside their jurisdition. Anyway, at this rate it won't be long
before the stones will all be gone and all they will have to mow around is
that pretty historical marker.
Jon Andrews
>From: "Sumap10" <maryalicepa(a)earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: "Sumap10" <maryalicepa(a)earthlink.net>
>To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Anyone with St. Louis ancestors?
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:46:44 -0800
>
>Jon, how common a practice is this? To me, it's even worse than some big
>development obtaining the land; at least greed is understandable. It would
>be extremely hard for me to believe that the Catholic church was unable to
>raise enough money to care for graves. It sounds like "could care less" to
>me, which is despicable coming from an organization committed to souls,
>both
>now and in the future.
>
>After these articles appeared, do you know if there was any public outcry?
>
>MaryAlice
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: jon andrews <sianoil(a)hotmail.com>
>To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 8:15 PM
>Subject: [INPCRP] Anyone with St. Louis ancestors?
>
>
> > After many years of searching, my wife has discovered what happened to
>some
> > of her family in St. Louis. I thought you might find the following most
> > interesting, especially the quotes by Rev. James R. Hartnett. My wife is
>now
> > searching for his stone, which might very well end up in the Mississippi
> > River on the way home!
> >
> > http://genealogyinstlouis.accessgenealogy.com/molner.htm
> >
> >
> > Jon Andrews
> >
>
>
>
>
>==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
>Please do not send queries through this list.
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
I never rec'd the above Digest
what is this "reclaiming"???
years ago I did a self-guided tour at St. Mary's...seem to recall that
basement ...probably sub-basements as well...my children and I wandered
everywhere....no one seemed to care...
also all who wander are not lost
Marilynn
Hello All,
Rich Green was right when he said it would seem to suggest a directive from
church officials rather than just isolated incidences of this. In
Princeton IN, the Catholic church has an old abandoned cemetery, left
untended when the new St. Joseph Catholic Cemetery came into being after
the turn of the century. The Diocese still owns it we think, but try
tracking down those records if you want a real records search challenge!
The families who could afford it re-enterred loved ones in the new
cemetery. Some who could not afford it just moved the stones. What was
left just grew up with weeds & brush, and over the years the surrounding
property owners began to claim the ground as theirs. Recently it was
surveyed using an 1890 land description, and a house is built on top of
part of the old cemetery, a power line crosses another part, and the rest
was claimed as the front yard of another house. Not wishing to mow around
or over what stones and remnants left there, most were tossed over a fence
into a woods or covered with dirt. Some descendants of those buried there
have been working with the Catholic church on this problem for 3 years.
Ernie
At 10:28 AM 12/06/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Sue, What an eye opening email. I am just horrified to think my
>great-great- grandfather's grave maybe one of those destroyed in El Dorado
>County. I may never find his grave. It is just so shocking that a church
>would do that. Although we have an old Catholic cemetery in our township
>that we can not get the Church to acknowledge ownership. I hope this is not
>representative of the majority of Catholic churches.
>Marge in Michigan
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Sue Silver <ssilver1951(a)jps.net>
>To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 6:42 AM
>Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Anyone with St. Louis ancestors?
>
>
>: I can speak from experience that what occurred in St. Louis at the hand of
>: the Catholic Diocese was not an isolated incident. A similar removal of
>: tombstones occurred in Placerville in El Dorado County, CA in the early
>: 1960s so that the Church could build a "new" modern church. The cemetery
>: was bulldozed of monuments and the modern (read ugly) church was built
>over
>: the graves which remained in the ground.
>:
>: In other parts of California (to this day), the Catholic Church has abused
>: and/or abandoned many historic consecrated cemeteries. The most recent
>one
>: that I am aware of is a small cemetery just down the road from one of the
>: early California Missions. It was reported that the Church was intending
>to
>: sell the land for development. Purportedly the sale would occur without
>: removal of the remains.
>:
>: In 1997, we had to threaten the Bishop of the Sacramento Diocese in order
>to
>: get him to respond in defense of a previously abandoned Catholic cemetery
>in
>: El Dorado County. It was one of two consecrated Catholic cemeteries the
>: diocese had abandoned over the years in this county. A third was signed
>: over to State Parks for the Marshall Gold Discovery State Historic Park in
>: Coloma. We told the bishop that if he didn't take care of St. Michael's,
>: that we would publish a brochure telling about six other abandoned
>Catholic
>: cemeteries and would distribute them by hand outside the parish churches
>: around Sacramento. Shortly thereafter the Church sued Pacific Bell, the
>: County of El Dorado and a residential homebuilder which had taken three
>home
>: lots from land owned by the Church.
>:
>: I'm not Catholic bashing when I write this. I'm just calling it the way I
>: see it. At the time we were trying to help St. Michael's, the Church was
>: distributing beautiful new brochures that said the Church takes care of
>you
>: in death as in life. Don't trust your deceased loved ones to private
>: cemeteries who don't care about you or your families. Because of what we
>: knew the Church was doing elsewhere, we gave some thought to filing a
>class
>: action lawsuit for breach of promise and fraudulent advertising. In the
>end
>: we used our energy and funds to restore the cemetery to some sense of
>: respectability.
>:
>: It just seems to us that the main and primary bottom line when it comes to
>: operating cemeteries still in active use, is money. It's not about
>respect.
>: It's not about morality. It's about running a lucrative business. In the
>: case of the Catholic Church, when the cemeteries no longer became
>: profitable, it would seem they just walked away.
>:
>: In other instances of which I am aware, they have also actively recycled
>the
>: old graves without removing the old remains. This has and is happening in
>: another gold rush community south of here.
>:
>: No matter who does these things, it just tears at the moral fabric of our
>: society. I, for one, am not willing to look the other way. If they do it
>: and I find out, it is going to be reported. It's a matter of common
>decency
>: and respect. It's everybody's business.
>:
>: Sue Silver
>: CA
>: ----- Original Message -----
>: From: "Sumap10" <maryalicepa(a)earthlink.net>
>: To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>: Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 6:46 AM
>: Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Anyone with St. Louis ancestors?
>:
>:
>: > Jon, how common a practice is this? To me, it's even worse than some
>big
>: > development obtaining the land; at least greed is understandable. It
>: would
>: > be extremely hard for me to believe that the Catholic church was unable
>to
>: > raise enough money to care for graves. It sounds like "could care less"
>: to
>: > me, which is despicable coming from an organization committed to souls,
>: both
>: > now and in the future.
>: >
>: > After these articles appeared, do you know if there was any public
>outcry?
>: >
>: > MaryAlice
>: >
>: > ----- Original Message -----
>: > From: jon andrews <sianoil(a)hotmail.com>
>: > To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>: > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 8:15 PM
>: > Subject: [INPCRP] Anyone with St. Louis ancestors?
>: >
>: >
>: > > After many years of searching, my wife has discovered what happened to
>: > some
>: > > of her family in St. Louis. I thought you might find the following
>most
>: > > interesting, especially the quotes by Rev. James R. Hartnett. My wife
>is
>: > now
>: > > searching for his stone, which might very well end up in the
>Mississippi
>: > > River on the way home!
>: > >
>: > > http://genealogyinstlouis.accessgenealogy.com/molner.htm
>: > >
>: > >
>: > > Jon Andrews
>: > >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
>: > Please do not send queries through this list.
>: >
>: >
>:
>:
>: ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
>: If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
>:
>
>
>==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
>If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
This is a problem that's still going on today. Of course, I can't find the
reference right now, but I was involved in a problem of this exact same
nature at a Catholic Church cemetery in Louisiana (not in New Orleans) last
year.
William Spurlock
Saving Graves
http://www.savinggraves.orghttp://www.savinggraves.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Sue Silver [mailto:ssilver1951@jps.net]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 7:43 AM
To: INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Anyone with St. Louis ancestors?
I can speak from experience that what occurred in St. Louis at the hand of
the Catholic Diocese was not an isolated incident. A similar removal of
tombstones occurred in Placerville in El Dorado County, CA in the early
1960s so that the Church could build a "new" modern church. The cemetery
was bulldozed of monuments and the modern (read ugly) church was built over
the graves which remained in the ground.
In other parts of California (to this day), the Catholic Church has abused
and/or abandoned many historic consecrated cemeteries. The most recent one
that I am aware of is a small cemetery just down the road from one of the
early California Missions. It was reported that the Church was intending to
sell the land for development. Purportedly the sale would occur without
removal of the remains.
In 1997, we had to threaten the Bishop of the Sacramento Diocese in order to
get him to respond in defense of a previously abandoned Catholic cemetery in
El Dorado County. It was one of two consecrated Catholic cemeteries the
diocese had abandoned over the years in this county. A third was signed
over to State Parks for the Marshall Gold Discovery State Historic Park in
Coloma. We told the bishop that if he didn't take care of St. Michael's,
that we would publish a brochure telling about six other abandoned Catholic
cemeteries and would distribute them by hand outside the parish churches
around Sacramento. Shortly thereafter the Church sued Pacific Bell, the
County of El Dorado and a residential homebuilder which had taken three home
lots from land owned by the Church.
I'm not Catholic bashing when I write this. I'm just calling it the way I
see it. At the time we were trying to help St. Michael's, the Church was
distributing beautiful new brochures that said the Church takes care of you
in death as in life. Don't trust your deceased loved ones to private
cemeteries who don't care about you or your families. Because of what we
knew the Church was doing elsewhere, we gave some thought to filing a class
action lawsuit for breach of promise and fraudulent advertising. In the end
we used our energy and funds to restore the cemetery to some sense of
respectability.
It just seems to us that the main and primary bottom line when it comes to
operating cemeteries still in active use, is money. It's not about respect.
It's not about morality. It's about running a lucrative business. In the
case of the Catholic Church, when the cemeteries no longer became
profitable, it would seem they just walked away.
In other instances of which I am aware, they have also actively recycled the
old graves without removing the old remains. This has and is happening in
another gold rush community south of here.
No matter who does these things, it just tears at the moral fabric of our
society. I, for one, am not willing to look the other way. If they do it
and I find out, it is going to be reported. It's a matter of common decency
and respect. It's everybody's business.
Sue Silver
CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sumap10" <maryalicepa(a)earthlink.net>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Anyone with St. Louis ancestors?
> Jon, how common a practice is this? To me, it's even worse than some big
> development obtaining the land; at least greed is understandable. It
would
> be extremely hard for me to believe that the Catholic church was unable to
> raise enough money to care for graves. It sounds like "could care less"
to
> me, which is despicable coming from an organization committed to souls,
both
> now and in the future.
>
> After these articles appeared, do you know if there was any public outcry?
>
> MaryAlice
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jon andrews <sianoil(a)hotmail.com>
> To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 8:15 PM
> Subject: [INPCRP] Anyone with St. Louis ancestors?
>
>
> > After many years of searching, my wife has discovered what happened to
> some
> > of her family in St. Louis. I thought you might find the following most
> > interesting, especially the quotes by Rev. James R. Hartnett. My wife is
> now
> > searching for his stone, which might very well end up in the Mississippi
> > River on the way home!
> >
> > http://genealogyinstlouis.accessgenealogy.com/molner.htm
> >
> >
> > Jon Andrews
> >
>
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> Please do not send queries through this list.
>
>
==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?