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I talked to Julian Pace's son. The reason his stone was discarded, was his name was wrong on it. Young Mr Pace asked if he could have the old stone, but was told he could not. I asked him if he would like to have it now and he said no.He also told me the cemetery was suppose to dispose of the stone.
The Veteran's Administration call me back yesterday. They said veteran's stones should be destroyed so the name is not still readable.
Micki
I wanted to let you know that I volunteered both myself and my husband
(whom I railroaded, actually) to do the cemetery registry project for
Madison County, so I am sure I will be needing advice from those of you
whom are familiar with the project.
I am trying to formulate a "plan of attack" on how to approach this
project, and I am wondering if I should try to determine the cemetery
ownership first, by the deed records. I'd appreciate hearing your
experiences and guidance as what not to do, or what to do first.
After I do a couple of smaller cemeteries, I thought I would try to
organize some volunteers in the other areas of the county to help. That
way, I might even get more people interested in the pioneer cemeteries,
etc. and cemetery maintenance for our neglected areas.
We do have a cemetery commission in Madison County but there seems to be a
lack of available information on their operations; however, I have found
out when they meet next - sooon - and I invited myself to their meeting.
I hope to find out what they have been, are, and will be working on in the
County.
Have a great day and thanks again.
Sandy
__________________________________________________
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Exactly....
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: Andi MacDonald <andimac(a)oz.net>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] TOMBSTONES ON RIVER
> The old headstones SHOULD have been buried one foot in front of the new
> marker. This is something many of us encourage for a variety of reasons.
> The old headstone will never be thought of as stolen.
> The old headstone will be preserved in its current condition, barring
> natural disaster.
> The old headstone can always be found.
>
> Andi
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Art Dillman" <dillmaca(a)hotmail.com>
> To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 6:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [INPCRP] TOMBSTONES ON RIVER
>
>
> > Hi All
> >
> > Wouldn't it make more sense for the rejects to be sent to a quarry to be
> > broken into say rip rap. That way none of the area containing
inscriptions
> > would be intact! It seems like the quarries would not complain if they
> > received free stone.
> >
> > Art Dillman
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Walters" <graveyardgroomer(a)skyenet.net>
> > To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: 28 August, 2001 6:15 PM
> > Subject: [INPCRP] TOMBSTONES ON RIVER
> >
> >
> > > Hello,
> > > I met with the Commissioners today and was pretty much told it was
not
> > their concern if the stones were not from Fayette County.
> > > I made my point that this is only going to lead to confusion
> 10,20,30,+
> > years as they continue to be washed downstream.Some will eventually end
up
> > on the Ohio river.They pretty much said " Good luck John". Shortly after
> our
> > meeting I recieved a call from the Dayton Daily News in Ohio,she was
very
> > excited about this story,as she said ,and I know many of us agree, that
> the
> > story should go out as to inform people that this is no way to dispose
of
> > gravestones regardless of them being discards.
> > > The State Police Officer stated that he was not sure yet if they
could
> > make the fella that put them on his bank to remove them or not.
> > > I intend to work on a method of removing them. A lot of people around
> > here know me as an avid canoer of that river,they also know my
involvement
> > with cemeteries,so I know that every canoer that spots these stones will
> > most likely end up contacting me.
> > > My last statement to the Commissioners was " As I receive these calls
I
> > will direct them to you guy's"
> > >
> > Walt
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> > > If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> > Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of
> England
> > and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli:
> > "Show me the manner in which a nation or community
> > cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical
> > exactness the tender mercies of its people, their
> > respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty
> > to high ideals."
> >
> >
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> Cemetery: (n) A marble orchard not to be taken for granite.
>
>
There is something about this that just feels wrong to me.
Here we are trying to save real cemeteries and to restore them from being
the miserable little places they are, and someone wants to take time, money
and energy to present a pretty cemetery in an artificial environment, using
real stones that should be at the real cemeteries.
One has to wonder if this kind of time, energy and money were being spent on
the cemeteries if they wouldn't be afforded just a little more respect.
Sue Silver
California
----- Original Message -----
From: Andi MacDonald <andimac(a)oz.net>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 6:01 AM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] stones in river
> The Snohomish County Historical Museum in WA actually took real stones
from
> a cemetery and moved them to a fake cemetery at their historical museum
log
> cabin when a street was cut through the middle of the real cemetery.
Then,
> the seniors moved a senior center onto the real cemetery claiming there
were
> no remains left. I've fought this type of thing (using any kind of stones
> in any kind of fake cemetery) as it seems to be a growing trend. I wonder
> if this is where many of our stolen stones are going!
>
> Andi
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <BluGinhm(a)aol.com>
> To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 2:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [INPCRP] stones in river
>
>
> > I can see most of the stones being rejects, but the government stone?
> > On an off-note, our local historical society, which has several locally
> > historic buildings that were moved to their site (like a little
village),
> has
> > taken several replaced stones (newer stones have been confirmed in each
> > instance) and made a little cemetery in their "village" - looks kind of
> neat.
> > Might be an idea for these reject stones.
> > Jan Rader
> > Kent, OH
> >
> >
> > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> > Cemetery: (n) A marble orchard not to be taken for granite.
> >
> >
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> Cemetery: (n) A marble orchard not to be taken for granite.
>
>
Hello, listers. I want to say thanks to all who commented about the
exhuming and reburial of bodies.
I did some checking on the internet and found this:
http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title23/ar14/ch57.html
IC 23-14-57 appears to be significant as to this question.
I was thinking about this and I find it hard to understand how a funeral
director, who has been in business for many years [I would guess at least
30] would never have encountered a similar situation or have heard of
someone else dealing with it. I just fail to understand how he could not
know what was required. And, surely the receiving cemetery would have to
have the proper paperwork-ya just can't drive in there with a body in a
box and bury it!
If I find out about the outcome of this, and particularly how old the
burials are and if the graves are marked, etc., I'll let you know.
Sandy
__________________________________________________
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Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Hello all,
I've been contacted by Sandra Claunch in New Mexico who has, for over 5
years, been trying to get answers in her state on cemeteries. She's been
through much of the same thing many of us have--trying to work through
government agencies and cemetery authorities--with no luck.
If there is anyone out there who is interested in New Mexico cemeteries,
please contact her. As always, there are many of us who will assist in
every way we can.
--------------
Andrea D. MacDonald "Andi"
andimac(a)oz.net
Washington State Cemetery Association
http://www.rootsweb.com/~wapsgs/
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change
the world. Indeed it's the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead
It really depends on state law. In WA, only immediate family (parents,
siblings, children) of the deceased may claim ownership of a stone or
remains. After that is anybody's guess. Upstanding cemeteries try to
contact descendants and ask them to take responsibility. Here, cemetery
authorities are responsible for the cemetery property (land), not a
headstone. When a headstone is broken or defaced or ??? the cemetery
authority can choose to do nothing and let the stone stay as is, or they can
fix it to maintain the image of the cemetery.
Andi
----- Original Message -----
From: <Katydid579(a)aol.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 2:54 PM
Subject: Who Can Give Permission? Was: Re: [INPCRP] Moving Day-
> Hi Sue and everyone,
>
> Your post brings to mind a situation that OCPS has recently had to
> contend with, that being at what point in time the family does not have to
be
> contacted when conservation is done on a marker. If the cemetery is under
> the general maintenance of a township or municipality, when can they begin
to
> decide whether a broken stone is pitched or repaired? One municipality
> regularly allows markers to deteriorate to the point of decay then removes
> them so as not to impede the mowers. When OCPS wanted to preserve some of
> the oldest markers, we were told we couldn't do that without permission
from
> the family. Has anyone else encountered this situation?
>
> Katie Karrick
> Ohio Cemetery Preservation Society
> http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohcps
>
> In a message dated 8/28/01 3:51:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> ssilver1951(a)jps.net writes:
>
>
> > In California, only the immediate offspring may "control" the remains of
the
> > parents, and I would presume vice versa. What happens in Indiana? How
many
> > generations later is considered there to be a legally recognized
controller
> > of historic remains?
> >
>
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> If you know of some good cemetery related links, send them to
LoisMauk(a)usa.net.
>
>
Hi Art and everyone,
They could send them to a quarry or break them up themselves -- but, Sue is
right, they would still have to store them until they got a truck load. But,
storing them, having someone break them up or hauling them to a stone crusher
is all added expense. It is my understanding that some dealers charge an
additional fee to remove a stone, but instead of using that fee to have it
destroyed, well... I have been quoted policy, but still we had the incident
here of "discarded" markers being used as landfill.
Katie
OCPS
http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohcps
In a message dated 8/28/01 9:06:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dillmaca(a)hotmail.com writes:
> Hi All
>
> Wouldn't it make more sense for the rejects to be sent to a quarry to be
> broken into say rip rap. That way none of the area containing inscriptions
> would be intact! It seems like the quarries would not complain if they
> received free stone.
>
> Art Dillman
>
Hello all,
I wanted to let you all know on Fox 59 for central Indiana last night, reporter Kimberly King reported on Crossman Communities "finding" a cemetery on land they bought from a farmer to develop. It made top story. Apparently, Crossman knew of a cemetery in the general area but wasn't sure exactly where it was until a headstone peeped out from the ground. The farmer who sold them the land was plowing over the cemetery. They interviewed a lady who owns a home close to the cemetery and she said she "wanted them moved" (the individuals buried there). I think Cris West has been working on this. If I got the wrong person, I apologize. I stayed up to watch Ch 13 news at 11:00 p.m. to see if they reported anything. They reported only complaints that Crossman is receiving about bad construction.
Take care,
Angela Tielking
Hi All
Wouldn't it make more sense for the rejects to be sent to a quarry to be
broken into say rip rap. That way none of the area containing inscriptions
would be intact! It seems like the quarries would not complain if they
received free stone.
Art Dillman
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Walters" <graveyardgroomer(a)skyenet.net>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: 28 August, 2001 6:15 PM
Subject: [INPCRP] TOMBSTONES ON RIVER
> Hello,
> I met with the Commissioners today and was pretty much told it was not
their concern if the stones were not from Fayette County.
> I made my point that this is only going to lead to confusion 10,20,30,+
years as they continue to be washed downstream.Some will eventually end up
on the Ohio river.They pretty much said " Good luck John". Shortly after our
meeting I recieved a call from the Dayton Daily News in Ohio,she was very
excited about this story,as she said ,and I know many of us agree, that the
story should go out as to inform people that this is no way to dispose of
gravestones regardless of them being discards.
> The State Police Officer stated that he was not sure yet if they could
make the fella that put them on his bank to remove them or not.
> I intend to work on a method of removing them. A lot of people around
here know me as an avid canoer of that river,they also know my involvement
with cemeteries,so I know that every canoer that spots these stones will
most likely end up contacting me.
> My last statement to the Commissioners was " As I receive these calls I
will direct them to you guy's"
>
Walt
>
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
>
>
Hi Sue and everyone,
It is not stated on the VA site, but one would think there would be
some legal action that could be taken since it is Federal property.
Katie
OCPS
http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohcps
In a message dated 8/28/01 7:02:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ssilver1951(a)jps.net writes:
> Would their failure to properly dispose of the veterans stone constitute a
> violation of the Military and Veterans Code?
>
> Sue Silver
> CA
>
Hi Sue,
Yes, Sue, I knew you were talking about the remains -- that's why I
changed the subject line... I wonder, though -- in the case of either
remains or markers -- which descendent has the authority to make the decision
after "x" number of years after the person who paid for the burial dies?
You're right about losing community history and heritage when the
stones are unceremoniously pitched... Politics have played a major role in
the demise of these old stones and mausoleums... It's not just a shame -- it
should be considered neglect and vandalism.
Katie
OCPS
http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohcps
In a message dated 8/28/01 7:04:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ssilver1951(a)jps.net writes:
> Katie,
>
> I think you misunderstood. I was speaking to control of the human remains
> within a cemetery, not the markers.
>
> But if, as you say, the municipalities are condoning the destruction by
> prohibiting conservation and preservation of the old markers, they are
> robbing those communities of their history and families of their ancestors.
> Shame on them...
>
> Sue
> CA
>
----- Original Message -----
From: John Walters
To: INPCRP
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 6:15 PM
Subject: TOMBSTONES ON RIVER
Hello,
I met with the Commissioners today and was pretty much told it was not their concern if the stones were not from Fayette County.
I made my point that this is only going to lead to confusion 10,20,30,+ years as they continue to be washed downstream.Some will eventually end up on the Ohio river.They pretty much said " Good luck John". Shortly after our meeting I recieved a call from the Dayton Daily News in Ohio,she was very excited about this story,as she said ,and I know many of us agree, that the story should go out as to inform people that this is no way to dispose of gravestones regardless of them being discards.
The State Police Officer stated that he was not sure yet if they could make the fella that put them on his bank to remove them or not.
I intend to work on a method of removing them. A lot of people around here know me as an avid canoer of that river,they also know my involvement with cemeteries,so I know that every canoer that spots these stones will most likely end up contacting me.
My last statement to the Commissioners was " As I receive these calls I will direct them to you guy's"
Walt
Hello,
I met with the Commissioners today and was pretty much told it was not their concern if the stones were not from Fayette County.
I made my point that this is only going to lead to confusion 10,20,30,+ years as they continue to be washed downstream.Some will eventually end up on the Ohio river.They pretty much said " Good luck John". Shortly after our meeting I recieved a call from the Dayton Daily News in Ohio,she was very excited about this story,as she said ,and I know many of us agree, that the story should go out as to inform people that this is no way to dispose of gravestones regardless of them being discards.
The State Police Officer stated that he was not sure yet if they could make the fella that put them on his bank to remove them or not.
I intend to work on a method of removing them. A lot of people around here know me as an avid canoer of that river,they also know my involvement with cemeteries,so I know that every canoer that spots these stones will most likely end up contacting me.
My last statement to the Commissioners was " As I receive these calls I will direct them to you guy's"
Walt
In a message dated 8/28/01 5:25:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BluGinhm(a)aol.com
writes:
> I can see most of the stones being rejects, but the government stone?
Hi Jan and everyone,
Here is the VA policy:
"Government headstones or markers in private cemeteries damaged by cemetery
personnel will not be replaced at Government expense. Marble or granite
headstones or markers, permanently removed from a grave, must be destroyed
until illegible and bronze markers must be returned to the contractor."
The old government markers are *supposed* to be destroyed, but they
obviously sometimes are not.
Katie Karrick
Ohio Cemetery Preservation Society
http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohcps
Hi Sue and everyone,
Your post brings to mind a situation that OCPS has recently had to
contend with, that being at what point in time the family does not have to be
contacted when conservation is done on a marker. If the cemetery is under
the general maintenance of a township or municipality, when can they begin to
decide whether a broken stone is pitched or repaired? One municipality
regularly allows markers to deteriorate to the point of decay then removes
them so as not to impede the mowers. When OCPS wanted to preserve some of
the oldest markers, we were told we couldn't do that without permission from
the family. Has anyone else encountered this situation?
Katie Karrick
Ohio Cemetery Preservation Society
http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohcps
In a message dated 8/28/01 3:51:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ssilver1951(a)jps.net writes:
> In California, only the immediate offspring may "control" the remains of the
> parents, and I would presume vice versa. What happens in Indiana? How many
> generations later is considered there to be a legally recognized controller
> of historic remains?
>
I can see most of the stones being rejects, but the government stone?
On an off-note, our local historical society, which has several locally
historic buildings that were moved to their site (like a little village), has
taken several replaced stones (newer stones have been confirmed in each
instance) and made a little cemetery in their "village" - looks kind of neat.
Might be an idea for these reject stones.
Jan Rader
Kent, OH
Katie,
I think you misunderstood. I was speaking to control of the human remains
within a cemetery, not the markers.
But if, as you say, the municipalities are condoning the destruction by
prohibiting conservation and preservation of the old markers, they are
robbing those communities of their history and families of their ancestors.
Shame on them...
Sue
CA
----- Original Message -----
From: <Katydid579(a)aol.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 2:54 PM
Subject: Who Can Give Permission? Was: Re: [INPCRP] Moving Day-
> Hi Sue and everyone,
>
> Your post brings to mind a situation that OCPS has recently had to
> contend with, that being at what point in time the family does not have to
be
> contacted when conservation is done on a marker. If the cemetery is under
> the general maintenance of a township or municipality, when can they begin
to
> decide whether a broken stone is pitched or repaired? One municipality
> regularly allows markers to deteriorate to the point of decay then removes
> them so as not to impede the mowers. When OCPS wanted to preserve some of
> the oldest markers, we were told we couldn't do that without permission
from
> the family. Has anyone else encountered this situation?
>
> Katie Karrick
> Ohio Cemetery Preservation Society
> http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohcps
>
> In a message dated 8/28/01 3:51:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> ssilver1951(a)jps.net writes:
>
>
> > In California, only the immediate offspring may "control" the remains of
the
> > parents, and I would presume vice versa. What happens in Indiana? How
many
> > generations later is considered there to be a legally recognized
controller
> > of historic remains?
> >
>
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> If you know of some good cemetery related links, send them to
LoisMauk(a)usa.net.
>
>
Would their failure to properly dispose of the veterans stone constitute a
violation of the Military and Veterans Code?
Sue Silver
CA
----- Original Message -----
From: <Katydid579(a)aol.com>
To: <INPCRP-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: [INPCRP] stones in river
> In a message dated 8/28/01 5:25:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
BluGinhm(a)aol.com
> writes:
>
>
> > I can see most of the stones being rejects, but the government stone?
>
> Hi Jan and everyone,
>
> Here is the VA policy:
>
> "Government headstones or markers in private cemeteries damaged by
cemetery
> personnel will not be replaced at Government expense. Marble or granite
> headstones or markers, permanently removed from a grave, must be destroyed
> until illegible and bronze markers must be returned to the contractor."
>
> The old government markers are *supposed* to be destroyed, but they
> obviously sometimes are not.
>
> Katie Karrick
> Ohio Cemetery Preservation Society
> http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohcps
>
>
>
>
> ==== INPCRP Mailing List ====
> If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living?
>
>
The county coroner would have no jurisdiction in this matter. They only
investigate the cause of death. Bud is right, the State or County Health
Dept. has a permit process for this. Obviously this is probably a case where
the family wants their loved ones moved to a different location. This is not
that uncommon. We had a family buy lots in our cemetery and move their
deceased son from about 60 miles away to their new lot. Things change in 30
years and people often make the decision where to bury someone in haste, not
realizing that they may not live where they live now in 30 or 40 years from
now. Since the parents are nearing retirement age, they are now thinking
more about where they are going to wish to be interred, and they wish their
son's remains to be with them.
Kyle D. Conrad