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Dear learned members and others,
Apologies if this message is duplicated due to system error...........
Does anybody have any information regarding the STIFFLES HOTEL, in Dalhousie,does it still exist?did anyone know the one time owners the Glaskin family from Lahore.
Whilst I have your attention is thre any information regarding station masters railway staff at LAHORE 1920S TO 1940....................
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I would be most grateful for any information about this family.
I have a Thomas Winter (1853-1918) and his wife Louisa Frederica, nee Volkers (1857-1927). They were based in
Rawalpindi/Murree, and had some eight daughters. I know of four of these, and through the India List have come into
contact with decendants of three, to my great delight. There remains Louisa!
Louisa Winter, bn 1879, was married in 1897, in Murree, to Thomas Patrick Russell Stracey (later changed to
Russell-Stracey). He was the son of Patrick Edward Stracey, and in 1897 was employed as an Assisatnt Examiner of
Military Accounts at Rawalpindi. He joined the Finance Dept of Govt of India in 1911, serving variously in the Punjab,
Bombay, and Madras; He retired in 1923, and that is basically all I know of him.
I have found five children:-
Russell Spens Winter (or Spens Winter Russell) bn 1897, died Calcutta 1934
Cyril Robert William bn 1901
Patrick Henry Andrew bn 1904
Edward George Honywood bn 1905
Doreen Cushlah Madelaine bn 1907
Having so recently found links to Louisa's three sisters, I am now very much hoping that someone on the list will lead
me to this fourth family
I would be extremely grateful if you could look up
the following ICS officers whose known details are
1. Mr. Archie William, Ibboston, CIE, MBE, M.C., MA,
DOA in India- 28.11.1910. Passed Wrangler Exam of
Cambridge University, Secy. to GOI Civil Defence, D.C.
2. Mr. Percy Wyndham, ICS, Commissioner Kumaon
3. Mr. Theodore John Chichester, Acton, BA DOA in
4. Mr. Michael Henry Braddon Nethersole, BA (Oxon.),
CIE, DSO. DOA 17.12.1919.
5. Mr. John Coote Donaldson, BA, CIE,MC, J.P. O
6. Mr. William Waters Finlay, DAO 8.12.1924.
7. Mr. Philip Mason, BA (Oxon.) , OBE, DOA-
14.12.1928, DC Garhwal 1941 1 April.
8. Mr. Raymond Veveysan Vernede, BA (Hons.) (Oxon.)
DOA 16.11.1920, Distt & Sessions Judge, Kumaon 1940
9. Mr. Reginald Harry Saloway, BA (Carpb.) , OBE , DOA
1. Mr. Frederick Young , CIE Holder of kIngs Police
Medal and Bar Ex DIG, U.P, DAO 1012.1909, Serving
GOI, Defence Deptt in May 1942.
2. Mr. Gilbert Waddel, DIG, Police. Holder of Kings
Police & Fire Service Medal, DOA 5.12.1914.
We are interested in knowing further about these
officers because unlike Mason/ Vernede, many of them
have not left behind any written memoirs and their
contribution to the upliftment of the districts in
their charge, especially Garhwal and Kumaon have
largely been ignored.
I would therefore, like to get in touch with their
children / grand children and know more about the
achievement so that their contribution can be put in
the right prospective. Addresses of their near
relatives or those of the IP & ICS Associations if
any, would therefore be extremely useful for my
Subhasis Ganguly IRSSE
Chief Signal & Telecom Engineer
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Thanks for writing, Cam. I don't think people who have a secure citizenship
realize the chamber of horrors this has been for many of us. Or, that none
of us really wanted to leave India, the way it WAS. I had to spend two days
at the US consulate in Madras which included a test to see if I could read
and write English!!! a means test, etc. before I could get an F-l student
visa to America in 1963. Now, because of all these hassles, and India not at
all being what is WAS, my mother and sister live in Australia, my brother in
NZ and my younger sister and I live in the US. Last family reunion was 8
years ago when my dad passed away. I have a friend from NZ who has had a
huge passport problem because she was born in China during the war and there
is no record of her birth! And, so it goes. Thanks again. Joy
>Subject: Re: British/UK citizenship
>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 23:44:19 EDT
>Up to now I've been a lurker, but excusably since I've two sisters and a
>brother-in-law who actively participate on the list (RFTaylor and
>and I don't even pretend to be amateur at genealogy. My interest in was
>peaked by the various listers who've had difficulty in not just obtaining
>British citizenship, but the reasons therefor. From my own experience I
>honestly believe there were and are no particular criteria for refusing or
>granting British citizenship. The British used (and may still use) almost
>any excuse they could to refuse citizenship to Anglo-Indians. Consider my
>mother, whose English husband died of a miserable disease contracted during
>the war in Burma: all her children were granted unqualified British
>citizenship, but when she attempted to emigrate to Australia in the 70's
>given a "second class" passport allowing her to travel as a British
>but NOT TO RESIDE in Great Britain. For the latter, they required her to
>prove her father was British; which we did but not without some fireworks
>from this once British but now American citizen which produced a
>passport between the time we handed it in, went to lunch, and returned. I
>have never forgotten or forgiven this deliberate humiliation of my Mum.
>My mother was assiduous in registering every child's birth with the
>consulate, and received in return a registration number for each child.
>However, when I applied for my own passport at the British consulate in
>Bombay (1955), bearing in hand my registration number, I was told they had
>record of it, and I would need my own and my father's birth certificate.
>With the unbelievable luck of youth (I was 17!), a voice came from behind
>file cabinets "Did I hear you say Bradley? I've just found a complete file
>for this family in the wrong place." And I was home free.
>When trying to extricate her children from India in the late 70's/early
>my sister was told the problem was her birth certificate listed her father
>"English" not British (so does mine, by the way, by the military hospital
>Quetta, Baluchistan ). The Home Office told her this was not a valid
>since nationality was not listed as British until later on, although the
>consulate/embassy in India used this as an exclusion in an underhanded
>manner, since only they knew there was absolutely no difference between the
>words "English" and "British" on a birth certificate! Talk about
>They asked if she would like to make a case of it OR they would get around
>by requesting the embassy in India to expedite her children's immigration
>England -- well, guess which she chose. They are merciless.
>There are probably just as many inventions by the UK consulates for
>disproving "British" citizenship as there are unfortunate people trying to
>get it. And at the risk of sounding like a "Yank", aren't there any
>lawyers who specialize in this sort of thing? Witness the hordes of U.S.
>attorneys for the little Cuban Elian Gonzalez, whose last ditch attempt to
>stay his return to Cuba was nixed by the Supreme Court yesterday. But don't
>worry about him, folks, this is the US of A. When he tries to get back
>he'll be a hero!!
>Sorry if this is off-topic, too long and/or non-genealogy related, but I
>really had to express myself.
>==== INDIA Mailing List ====
>For answers to basic questions about finding birth,
>death and marriage information in British India, see
>Cathy Day's website at http://www.ozemail.com.au/~clday/
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
I have returned for a short while with a couple of queries which I hope
someone can help me with.
Just recently I have been trying to trace the final journey home to
England from India of Major Joseph Alexander of HEICS (probably with a
child) and I seem to have found a muddle. He travelled by the 'Alfred'
from India (leaving Madras on 19 June 1834 - officially entered as this
date in his service record) and arrived in London as Major J A Condell.
However, the only Major listed in the Bengal Hurkaru (Thursday July 3rd
1834) as having embarked at Madras on the 'Alfred' was Major Caldwell (no
wife and two Master Caldwells).
There is another reference to a Major Caldwell as having just left his post as
"Superintendent to the Mysore Princes" in the Bengal Hurkaru of Thursday 1 May
1834. He was to be replaced by Major Edward John Honywood. This was an
official Governement Notification.
Two questions for Listers:
1. Is there one source for shipping news in which I can follow a single
ship (ie Alfred) with its various ports of call rather than casting my
eyes over the whole of the Bengal Hurkaru for 1834? or the Asiatic Journal
Volume XV which is my alternative (That source listed Major J A Condell
with the passengers expected from Madras - no wife, no attached children,
as all children were lumped together as "seven children"). I have not
found an English source for the arrival.
2. Is there a source I can look up for the post of "Superintendent of the
Princes" to ascertain whether there was a Major Caldwell in addition to a
or if they are one and the same person (which I hope!).
Caldwell might have travelled on the"Flora" as planned (found in my
notebook, - source can be checked again) and the spelling of Condell on the
"Alfred" just wrong.
There was a lady of J A Camell, who had a child and died at the time I
J A Condell's wife to have had a child and died. I wonder if it is
possible for there to be such a large number of spelling mistakes or
perhaps the ship exchanged passengers at another Indian port.
I hope someone among you can give me a clue as where to look for the answers.
With best wishes
Dian Elvin, Australia
email number: <john.dutton(a)bigpond.com>
You may like to visit <http://www.dreamguard.org> !
Can anyone tell me about the 92nd Foot,17th Lancers and Local Forces,
can I obtain information from the LDS? May possibly have ancestors who
served in them which I need to confirm. Many thanks.
Here are some extra names which were on the photocopy of a marriage of
James Hughes & Ann Beswick (nee McGrady).
Henry Babington ROSE to Evander Sophia RAMO
Henry HOAD to Ann ODELL
William Walter HOLLAND to Mary Ann HARRIS
Edward JAMES to Mary HYMN (nee Kelly)
Thomas Sample ANGUS to Jane DUNN (nee Diddlestone)
Let me know if any of these names are in your family tree.
Slightly off topic but does anyone know if the ,if I remember the name
correctly, the so called "Nansen" passports are still issued ? Named after
the famous Arctic explorer- who knew something about being cut off from his
fellow man !!!
They were issued to "stateless" persons in wake of the upheavals at the end
of World War I and were recognised world wide
Subj: Re: British/UK citizenship
I will second Jill Grey's comments about the way entries got into Thackers
From my experience of local street directories in England, the names shown
in successive editions may have been gathered in various ways:
1. An amended entry because someone has moved and this has been picked up
by the compiler.
2. The previous years entry repeated because no change was picked up.
3. Entry omitted because no information was forthcoming before press date
for that year.
The East India Register/Directory that Gil Raymond mentions seems to have
been primarily a listing of officers and gentlemen, which is of course
comparable with the UK directories for the period. I ccertainly had
difficulty in picking up an ancestor of mine who was a clerk in the General
Department of the HEIC in Calcutta. He appears in the staff listings, but
not in the alphabetical index of Europeans.
In general, any directory published in England or India before around 1880
tends to list only the upper echelons of society.
I think this sounds totally anti-English, and when I consider the humiliation
every single holidaymaker entering the US is put through, somewhat
unwarranted. (When I first entered on a British Subject, as opposed to
British Citizen passport, I was held up at JFK for over an hour by
immigration officials, and I only wanted to stay a couple of weeks!
And I dont think the Elian case, where for some reason americans appear to
want to separate a 6 year old from his only parent, is exactly comparable.
I have already recorded before of the difficulty I had trying to get my
British passport. I am not anglo-Indian but our (mine and my sisters) birth
notification/certificates never reached England during the war (assumed to be
due to enemy action) and we had a great difficulty getting British
Citizenship. However while it was extremely tedious it never occurred to me
to put it down to racism. A lot of odd things happened in the post war years
and all Governments I am sure were extremely wary of suddenly being
confronted with people claiming citizenship but unable to produce evidence of
any kind to back it up.
The Home Office and Passport Office tried to be helpful and always advised us
what step to take next.
I am searching for a family KRUPP(s), or at least a lady of that name with
the possible initial "L" who married into our Kohlhoff family in the
Cochin/Trivandrum area in about 1837. I assume the name was of Dutch origins
but would welcome any ideas or any sightings of the name around the 1830s or
earlier. No marriage record has been found.
Its like being a registrar in the NHS. There are only a few colonel posts and
lots of applicants, so most people get blocked at Lt.Col. Likewise there are
only a few consultant posts, and loads of doctors trying to aim higher.
To be a colonel you have to be on the staff, Lt.Col. are on the field.
Dian raises some important issues in her message about travelling between
India and the UK. A couple of points, which also relate to the discussion
on Thackers (and the other) Directories. The information was only as good
as that passed on to the registrar - if it was wrong in either transmission
or transcription, anything could happen.
Broadly, whilst contemporary reports are the best - in the absence of
anything else - there are other sources. As I say in my talks/lectures on
families in India THINK LATERALLY. What do we know about the ship?
If the ship was an HEIC ship or an Extra ship, then it is likely that for
1834, the ship's log and other papers is in the OIOC in London. In
addition, it is likely to have been recorded in Hardy's shipping registers.
In addition, I have recently come across another set of papers outside the
OIOC which relate to shipping movements, including some original shipping
registers, which frequently contain passenger lists, details of sailings and
port of call of ships etc. They cover the period 1750 to 1833 (broadly).
HOWEVER, please remember that 1833 was the end of the HEIC's tean monopoly
to China and therefore the end of their shipping interests - open season
after that date - so the OIOC/HEIC maritime records finish (broadly) in
My next major personal transcription project is to transcribe the shipping
registers and list the people on the various ships - where they can be read
Look-ups are possible but not for a few weeks too busy with research at the
If the officer concerned was HEIC, it ashould be possible to trace him
through the officer's records, muster rolls, army lists etc. If he was HM
Forces that could be a little more difficult but no an insurmountable
Hope this helps
In an earlier posting I suggested the East Indian Directories as an
alternative to Thackers. I don't think that it can substitute for
Thackers as far as the general European population goes, but it does
have some interesting features. Mind you I base this on ony one film
1803/5 that I have viewed.
The usual Military and Marine officers are well represented. The
officers of all the Native regiments are listed and there is an index
for all the officers in the Forts Marlborough, St. George and in Bengal.
Shipping is also well represented with Ships crew listed under: Managing
Owner, Commanders, 1st through to 4th Officers, Surgeons and Pursers.
The European sections were a bit of a disappointment as they list only
those Europeans inhabitants of the Forts, not elswehere.
I found it very interesting and I would certainly recommend that you
have a look at at least one to get an idea of their contents. If your
ancestor was an officer in the military then you are well catered for.
This info. comes from a friend of mine.David Ebnezer Gostling 1839-1908, a
well known bombay architect who came here in 1866 was married to a girl of
the family.You can check out his obituary in building news vol.95,1908. he
was member of r.i.b.a he designed a no of buildings in bombay including the
synsgouge in fort, scottish orphanage in mahim etc. he was initially a
partner in Campbell,Scott&Mcclellan&co.
Linda & Tony & list -
THOMPSON of Madras
I have a link between James William Thompson, born c 1877, son of William
Thomas Thompson who in 1902 at Coonoor, as a clerk in the Traffic Manager's
Office, Madras Railways, married Gertrude Letitia MacAlister and had
children Stanley and Maisie.
I also have a link to William Thomas Thompson of the telegraph dept who in
1875 married Charlotte Laura Hodson Mddleton (1859-1905) who had "at least"
a son William Thomas Thompson (1876) and daughter Laura Elizabeth (1878)
I do not yet know if these two groupings are linked - but there is at least
Let me know if there is a conection to your families - and we can share
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony/Linda Knight <bestcover(a)freenet.uk.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2000 4:24 PM
> STRINGER- John THOMPSON.Thanks for your info.My grandmother's sister was
an ME.THOMPSON (probably Mary Elizabeth) and a brother William or ? W
THOMPSON.We are still o further forward on a positive for this one ,but
won't rule him out as a no no.
> Thanks,Linda and Tony Knight
There used to be an organisation called the East India Charitable Trust which
helped poor Anglo-Indians in cities like Calcutta. Does anyone know whether
this organisation still exists, and if so does anyone have their LONDON
address? Many thanks for any help.
Up to now I've been a lurker, but excusably since I've two sisters and a
brother-in-law who actively participate on the list (RFTaylor and daaugier),
and I don't even pretend to be amateur at genealogy. My interest in was
peaked by the various listers who've had difficulty in not just obtaining
British citizenship, but the reasons therefor. From my own experience I
honestly believe there were and are no particular criteria for refusing or
granting British citizenship. The British used (and may still use) almost
any excuse they could to refuse citizenship to Anglo-Indians. Consider my
mother, whose English husband died of a miserable disease contracted during
the war in Burma: all her children were granted unqualified British
citizenship, but when she attempted to emigrate to Australia in the 70's was
given a "second class" passport allowing her to travel as a British citizen,
but NOT TO RESIDE in Great Britain. For the latter, they required her to
prove her father was British; which we did but not without some fireworks
from this once British but now American citizen which produced a "corrected"
passport between the time we handed it in, went to lunch, and returned. I
have never forgotten or forgiven this deliberate humiliation of my Mum.
My mother was assiduous in registering every child's birth with the
consulate, and received in return a registration number for each child.
However, when I applied for my own passport at the British consulate in
Bombay (1955), bearing in hand my registration number, I was told they had no
record of it, and I would need my own and my father's birth certificate.
With the unbelievable luck of youth (I was 17!), a voice came from behind the
file cabinets "Did I hear you say Bradley? I've just found a complete file
for this family in the wrong place." And I was home free.
When trying to extricate her children from India in the late 70's/early 80's,
my sister was told the problem was her birth certificate listed her father as
"English" not British (so does mine, by the way, by the military hospital in
Quetta, Baluchistan ). The Home Office told her this was not a valid reason
since nationality was not listed as British until later on, although the
consulate/embassy in India used this as an exclusion in an underhanded
manner, since only they knew there was absolutely no difference between the
words "English" and "British" on a birth certificate! Talk about Catch-22!!
They asked if she would like to make a case of it OR they would get around it
by requesting the embassy in India to expedite her children's immigration to
England -- well, guess which she chose. They are merciless.
There are probably just as many inventions by the UK consulates for
disproving "British" citizenship as there are unfortunate people trying to
get it. And at the risk of sounding like a "Yank", aren't there any English
lawyers who specialize in this sort of thing? Witness the hordes of U.S.
attorneys for the little Cuban Elian Gonzalez, whose last ditch attempt to
stay his return to Cuba was nixed by the Supreme Court yesterday. But don't
worry about him, folks, this is the US of A. When he tries to get back here
he'll be a hero!!
Sorry if this is off-topic, too long and/or non-genealogy related, but I
really had to express myself.
Trying to trace any relatives of Geraldine HARVEY. Died in or about 1904 during of soon after giving birth to a son Gerald Arthur GORDON on 9/4/1904.
Geraldine was married to Henry GORDON on whose marriage certificate he is described as a medical student.
Does anyone have a connection with Dr Henry GORDON who, it is thought, may have lived, practised and possibly remarried in India?
Peter Jeffrey Fairman Conquest
In beautiful rural England
Also Researching FAIRMAN, PEACOCK, WEIDLE, HARRIS and BRAMBLEBY
30 June 2000
Can any member please help me in my
search for infomration on the above named families with details of births
All I know is they are connected by ARMY& Madras Railways.