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Hi, listers. I have recently joined the list in the hope of being able to discover something of the lives and careers of my husband's Crawfurd ancestors, who are supposed to have served the HEIC from its early days.
However, my information at the moment starts with his ggg grandfather, Gavin Ralston-Crawfurd, who rose to become a lieutenant colonel in the Bengal Horse Artillery and had a period of secondment to a civilian job in charge of state prisoners in India - among them Dost Mohammed (Ist Afghan War) and Lal Singh. He married (in India, we think) Charlotte van Dring, daughter of Jan van Dring, a wealthy Dutch East India Company merchant. Gavin and Charlotte had four children - Gavin Dring, Hugh Patrick (my husbands' gg grandfather), Charlotte and Constance.
Hugh married Selina Sharp in Barrackpore on 10 March 1862/3 (his father was dead by then) and had a daughter Eleanor, then a baby son who died along with his mother of typhoid. Hugh later married Blanche Eliza Kennaway (christened abt 21 June 1841, Masure, West Bengal, daughter of William Richard Kennaway and Eliza ?)) in East Sheen, Surrey, England on 13 Feb 1873. Hugh was also in the army - first the Chicacoole Light Infantry (34th MNI), later Madras Staff Corps and finally commanded 12th Madras in 2nd Burmese War (all according to his granddaughter, my husband's grandmother). According to the entries from Hart's Army List 1873 (thank you, Jill Grey), Hugh was a 2nd lieutenant, cornet or ensign on 1 Sept 1855, so presumably had a ringside seat at the incident involving Mughal Pandee and the 34th NI that sparked the Great Mutiny in 1857?.
Elder brother Gavin (born 9 June 1829, Calcutta, West Bengal) is given as a major in the Bengal Infantry in Hart's Army List, 1873, yet the family lore has it that he had left the service after his wife's death within a year of their marriage and ran away with an Indian lady of position ??????
Sister Charlotte married ---Repton, also thought to be in the army (no details).
Sister Constance married Benjamin Sharp (no relation to Selina, above), chaplain to the 10th Hussars.
Would anyone have any details on Gavin senior's secondment to the state prisoner job of looking after Dost Mohammed or anything else relevant to his career or that of his sons? Any specific reference works that would throw light on their wars and campaigns and service generally?
I have no tombstone data yet for the above beyond what I have mentioned.
I would be most grateful if those of you with access to the records at India House could look out for any of this lot as you go about your own research and pass on whatever you may unearth. I find myself on the wrong continent at the moment - does anyone know of any library in Canada (ideally in Montreal) with good holdings on India?
Joan in Pointe Claire
All this discussion reminds me of the time my mother in Calcutta checked her
phrase book and asked the cook to buy Kaela. He came home with a huge stick
of bananas! (I guess she'd given him a lot of money.)She double checked and
had wanted Khaela, which is coal. Hindi being an aspirated language makes a
lot of difference with an h.
And, of course the old addage that if you go to the north pole you will find
an Indian there with a Chai shop! (I certainly hope so!)
And, for those who want to discuss this even further check out the chat
rooms on http://www.chaitime.com
>From: kenshell <kenshell(a)compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Ref. CHAR-CHAI
>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:46:41 -0500
>have we drunk enough char/chai yet?
>it's wonderful that this list is also a cultural exchange,
>but perhaps we should realise that with one billion indians
>and the whole diaspora, dialects will develop...
>==== INDIA Mailing List ====
>For a list of professional researchers who specialise in
>India and/or military records, see the webpage at :
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
The word 'CHAI' is certainly used for tea in Hindi all over India, but I
have never heard anyone using CHAR for tea. The word CHAA is also used for
tea in some places or parts of India in Hindi. CHAR is used for the number
FOUR. The Hindi numbers run like this, EK, DO, TEEN, CHAR, PANCH, CHAE,
SAAT, AADH, NAU, DAS.
May be instead of CHAA for Tea, there was a mistake, and the person wrote
CHAR, or the last A looked like R. But certainly the word for tea in Hindi
is either CHAI or CHAA.
From: Robin Volkers <robin.volkers(a)which.net>
To: INDIA-L(a)rootsweb.com <INDIA-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Date: Friday, 31 March 2000 7:32
Subject: Re: Ref. CHAR-CHAI
>I can assure you that chai (as in eye) is bog standard Hindi & Urdu
pronunciation for tea in Delhi and Agra; also so
>pronounced in Rajasthan, Shimla, parts of Bihar etc, and I think also
Calcutta, though it is many years since I was
>there. My friends regard "char" as being effectively an English
>There was mention of India being a country without dialect variations. Set
aside the many different languages - many of
>them mutually incomprehensible - and there are many many dialects within
each language. Hindi itself varies tremendously
>between the western area (sort of Delhi/Meerut) and the east near Varanasi.
Add to that the local local dialects - what
>I call village talk (a term either adopted or used by my friends) which the
sweepers and dhobi wallahs talk, and which
>many of the middle class Indians find difficult to say the least.
>Incidentally, I have never found anyone reading a buck in southern England!
>==== INDIA Mailing List ====
>For a list of LDS microfilm numbers of OIOC church records
>in British India, see the Churches page at :
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Hi Denise and Pat:
I am forwarding a letter I wrote to Angela Middleton a few weeks ago
when she made inquiries about the name Bonner.
Edwin Bonner (Senior)- was born at Thame Oxford, England on 4th March
1827. He was baptized on March 30, 1827. Here is the extract from Thame
Parish Church, Oxford.
Edwin, base born son of Ann Bonner of Thame - Poor - "
(Signed) F. Lee Curate
I certify above is a correct extract
(Signed) C.N. Middleton-Evans
Vicar of Thame
Dated June 30, 1949
Edwin Bonner, Senior, enlisted as Gunner, 3rd battalion, Madras
Artillery on 21st December 1844 at London.
Embarked for Madras on "Orient" 19th May 1845
Sgt. Eff - Super's November 1854
Volunteered to Royal Artillery 1961
Sub Conductor 26th March 1868
Depy Asst Commissiary, 20th November 1880
Retired 25th April 1881
Died 27th April 1906 at the age of 79 years in Bangalore..
At the age of 22 yrs, Edwin Bonner Senior, married Elizabeth Clough - 14
yrs - at the Garrison Church, Kamptee on 5th June 1849. Elizabeth was
the daughter of John Clough, Private, H.M. 55 Regt. On th marriage
certificate Edwin Bonner (Senior) gave his father's name as Abel Bonner
(Labourer). But he was the illegitimate child of Ann Bonner. I believe
Abel Bonner does not exist. My mother, Edwin's great grandaughter,
discovered this when she located his baptismal certificate.
Edwin Bonner (Senior) and his wife Elizabeth had 15 children, His son
Edwin Bonner (Junior) was the second child and eldest son.
Edwin Bonner Junior was born on 26th February 1852 in Bangalore and was
baptized in St Mark's Church on 27th april 1854. He was a pensioned
conductor. He died at St Thomas' Mount, Madras on 6th June 1912.
Edwin Bonner Junior married Grace Peace (daughter of Charles Peace and
Grace Thompson) on 26th November 1879 in the Methodist Church, St
Thomas' Mount. The children of this marriage were:-
Alice Ethel Bonner, born 10th July 1881 (my maternal grandmother)
Margaret (Poppy) Bonner, born 28th November 1884
Eloizabeth Bonner, born 2nd November, 1885
Vincent Bonner born 11 May 1891
Alexandra Peace Bonner, born 22nd November 1902
So, my grandmother, Alice Ethel Bonner's father and grandfather were
both named Edwin. If you can find a connection to your Edwin Bonner, do
let me know. The name Edwin Bonner and other Bonners are listed in the
Lawrence School directory of admissions. I had always assumed this Edwin
was Edwin Junior and the other Bonners were his siblings?
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 23:04:47 -0600
From: Moira Breen <mbreen(a)ameritech.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD AIT (Win95; I)
To: "Middleton, Angela" <xtr24527901(a)xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Bonner and Langhorne
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
My maternal grandmother Alice Ethel Bonner was the grandaughter of Edwin
Bonner (senior) who was born in Thame, Oxfordshire, England on 4th
March 1827 (illegitimate son of Ann Bonner) and baptized March 30, 1827.
He enlisted in the Hon'ble East India Company's Artillery on 21st
December 1844. He arrived in Madras on 19th August 1845 and was posted
to the R.H.A. He married Elizabeth Clough, daughter of John Clough,
Private, H.M. 55th Regt. Bellary. Marriqage solemnized at Kasmptee
Chruch on 5th June 1849.. He died in Bangalore on 27th April 1906, aged
79 years. He was pensioned Hony Lieutenant of the Indian Ordnance
Department. He and Elizabeth had 15 children. His son, Edwin Bonner
(Junior) was the second child and eldest son and was the father of my
grandmother Alice Ethel Bonner. In the latter half of the 19trh century,
Edwin Bonner (Junior) and other Bonner children (presumably his
siblings) are listed in the Lawrence School admissions directory.
Perhaps your friend is related to one of these siblings? If you think
this is a possibility I will be glad to look up the directory (I have a
copy) and provide you with these names.
By the way, Alice Ethel Bonner married Henry Middleton. I have seen
your name many times on ther India List and wondered if your forebears
were related to my grandfather, who was born in Madras in 1878 and was a
son of the second marriage of William Edward Middleton from Kent,
Dear Listers, Does anyone have access to the New Calcutta Directory? Years ago I found out some information about my gr grandfather in the 1856 issue, which I wrote out in my schoolboy hand (and still have). In that issue it stated that Captain G. Faithfull of the 68th Regiment of N.I. had returned from furlough in Europe (I presume that included the U.K.) arriving on the P&O Company's steamer "Hindostan". It included other interesting information about this officer. I mention that this is not the East India Directory and Army list which I have also accessed. I am wanting to search for any information about the death of his wife, which might possibly be referred to in the New Calcutta Directory of 1852. Does anyone know between which years this Directory was published? Grateful for any assistance, Bob Faithfull.
Towards the end of 1861 Thomas Rattray was posted to Sumthulpore in Command
of a force consisting of 8th and 9th Police Battalions, the Sumthulpore
Levies & a troop of the Behar Horse to suppress a rebellion in the District.
Returned in Feb.1862 having successfully accomplished the mission.
Can any one give me details on the 8th and 9th Police Battalions?
Does any one have details on the rebellion that occurred in the Sumthulpore
Am I losing something here or are you
looking for each other ?
----- Original Message -----
From: Harold A. Voss <daja(a)calweb.com>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2000 1:38 PM
> Hi: Am new to this mailing list. I am researching my grandparents,
Francis Johnstone Graham Campbell, married Flora Mary Souter or Stubbs. I
found my father's baptismal certificate (and 2 of his siblings) in India at
the Mormon Family History Center. I knew only that my grandfather was with
the British in India, on the certificates I found that he was a joint
magistrate in Bengal Civil Service. Also on the certificates my grandmother
is listed as Flora Mary Souter, on my parents marriage certificate my father
listed name as Stubbs - a mystery. She died shortly after my father's
birth, he was born in 1881 (he was 49 when I was born). On a post I saw the
name Frank Souter and a suggestion to check the History of Mumbai Police
which I did and Sir Frank Souter was the first Police Commissioner, am
wondering if there is any connection to my grandmother. Because of problems
with the step mother none of the siblings would discuss their family and we
are all at a loss of where !
> to turn next. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> Thank you in advance, Mary.
> ==== INDIA Mailing List ====
> To cut down on the number of email messages from the
> INDIA List, you might consider changing from LIST
> mode to DIGEST mode
Having distracted the List with the debate over the cuppa, Ithought I
would concentrate my mind on genealogy for a change.
My Indian ancestors were centred in Madras, and their names were:
D'ARACHY/ DE ARACHY/ ARACHY)
I would be happy to exchange information with anyone sharing interest in
any of those names. If anyone has ever come across the name THOWTY in
whatever connection, I would ilke to hear from them.
Sorry folks..it took a cup of" chai" for me to realise that I had made a mistake earlier when seeking information on :
RICHARD WILLIS ( he married Catherine( sometimes spelt Kathryn) Ross JAMIESON.)..his mother was called Agnes.
Both Richard and his wife were born in India, he in Bombay 1814, and she in India in 1831(details from Census in Woking 1871)
We believe, details to be confirmed, that Catherine was somehow related to INGLIS, a George INGLIS being one of the original
partners Forbes & Co., Bombay , 1811. ( was her grandfather an Inglis?)
The Inglis family came from 'KINGSMILL". NAIRN ,SCOTLAND . 1750 to ?
Thanks ... Patricia.
Thanks to everyone who responded to the cha/chai debate. I don't know
if I am any the wiser. I spent most of my life in India in East Bengal,
and as I said I never heard the word chai. The Munshi whose phrase book
I quoted stated in his Remarks on Pronunciation that: Accurate
pronunciation is a chief factor in any language, and if care is taken
from the commencement to follow the simple rules laid down for the
pronunciation of Hindustani words, very little difficulty will be met
Ha! Little did he know.
He was domiciled in Lucknow. Perhaps there were some regional
Anyway, I am sticking with the Munshi on this one.
Regardless of how it is pronounced; here's to the cup that cheers, but
does not inebriate.
I have been having positive responses to my inquiries so I thought I would
try my luck again. I would like to know if anyone has info on the above
surnames. Charles STATHER married Catherine SEYMOUR in India. His sister
Louisa STATHER married George Meaker VALENTINE also in India. This would be
around 1839. I have reason to believe that the STATHERS were from NEVIS,
W.I. Any leads will be greatly appreciated.
Kim in Canada
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
From: Anthony & Shirley West
To: India Roots List
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2000 5:24 PM
Subject: "Protective Service"
Kimberley asks about the "Protective Service"
I wonder if you mean Preventive Service? Preventive Officers were/are the uniformed branch of Customs & Excise - they are in fact what most people think of when they speak of Customs Officers.
In the UK they were also known as the Waterguard, and the structure of the Indian Customs service was based on the UK service.
I'm trying to fill in some background information about Cannanore
(Malabar Coast) in the 1820s. From Cathy Day's pages and surfing the net
I've found some (not all) of the regiments which were posted there, and
I would like to know more about trade there in that period, and the
names of Roman Catholic churches there, which I've not yet found. Can
anyone please post any information or suggest some sources to read ?
Linda Le Merle
If the estate was Rupees, it was still a good deal of money in 1921in India.......I have my grandfather's cheque book from 1918, the stubbs of which show that you could buy a new Morris Minor for Rs. 4,000,a wild luxury at a time when very few people here had cars.You could have 2 boys at a top boarding school in Bangalore for Rs. 43 - 8 annas per term..!! My maternal grandfather bought a 3 bed bungalow in 1932 in a posh-ish part of town for Rs.7,500....so in 1921 your grandfather would seem to have been pretty well-off. Hope this is helpful in getting an angle on it.
With regard to Peter Rodgers' comments on servants, my mother's hosehold accounts in 1958 show a Bearer (butler / major-domo) at Rs. 65 per month, Cook at Rs.45 p.m., Cook's help at Rs. 20 p.m.,a Mali at Rs. 25 p.m. and a Sweeper ( who cleaned the bathrooms) at Rs. 15. Bearer and Cook got accomodation and food for all the family. Our house rent was Rs. 400 a month for a 3-bed bungalow in the centre of town........now a part-time cook, (from 10 to 2) costs Rs 1,500 a month. But after years in London, when a great treat was a ready-to-eat Korma from Marks & Spencers , I'm not complaining, unlike most Bangaloreans who moan constantly about servants and never think how lucky they are. Servants were always cheaper in South India, I know not why, but it looks like wages never went up much in 30 years, poor things.
Living in India is still comparatively cheap and a young IT professional on Rs. 50,000 -70,000 is considered well-off, and can enjoy a good standard of living....there's not much we can't get here these days and old Bangaloreans would be amazed at our New York - style bars and restaurants.....an expensive meal at a 5star hotel is about Rs. 500 a head.
With reference to the Raj, Charles Allen in his book "Raj: A Scrapbook of British India 1877-1947", says "The Mutiny marked the beginnings of modern India. On 1 November 1858.........the Raj rose from the ashes of John Company" (the familiar name of the British East India Company). He later refers to the Raj 'coming of age' on 1 January 1877, the first Delhi Durbar, at which Queen Victoria was proclaimed Queen-Empress of India, hence his choice of dates.
Patrick Wilson. Bangalore.
Anyone searching these families?
McHutchin Scotland, Isle of Man, India, East Africa
Underwood London, India
Howe Suffolk, Surrey, South Africa
Grimwood Suffolk, Essex
Sillitoe Cheshire, Argentina
Page Sussex, Surrey
Treanor Mayo, Galway in Ireland; Deal, Kent: South Africa
Thompson Wexford, Ireland; India.
have we drunk enough char/chai yet?
it's wonderful that this list is also a cultural exchange,
but perhaps we should realise that with one billion indians
and the whole diaspora, dialects will develop...
My father (a Colonel in the 2nd Gurkhas) was president of one of the General
Courts Martial which tried a member of the INA at the Red Fort Delhi, in 1946.
I was then 11 and we were living at Dehra Dun. I remember various
conversations at the time, and I also have a few notes in his memoirs. The
defendant was a well-connected Captain, son of a rajah, accused of atrocities
against his own Indian troops who refused to be "turned" to the Japanese. If
this is of interest, if you want more details, email me.
> Hi All
> For many, many years I have been vaguely researching the India National
> Army, the group of Indians who either supported or fought for the Japanese
> against the British in WW2.
> I have all of the standard books on the subject and keep thinking about
> writing something about the INA but can only ever seem to read either books
> from India which are rabidly supportive or books from non-Indian sources
> which are equally rabid whilst taking the opposite view, viz. that all INA
> members or supporters were traitors.
> I would be very interested in hearing from anybody whose family had forst
> hand experience of the INA, either during the war or during the post-war
> Hoping that this does not start another round of turmoil
> Tony Fuller
> ==== INDIA Mailing List ====
> Need an India-related book? Visit Cathy's bookstore at: