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Thanks for all the replies I received. I have the parish registers booklets
for Michaelston-Super-Avon and both David & Sarah Thonmas are enterred in
them. I had not realised that the M.Is had also been done, thank you for
informing me. I have sent an email to Gwyn Rhys as I am a member of
Glamorgan FHS hopefully they will have a gravestone I will keep my fingers
crossed.
Thanks again
Heather
Glam 3751
Hello Heather,
Try this website. Peter is the top person UK for this information.
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/
My best wishes, Jill
-----Original Message-----
From: glamorgan-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:glamorgan-bounces@rootsweb.com]
On Behalf Of Heather Smith
Sent: 12 January 2014 19:13
To: glamorgan(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [GLA] Workhouse Neath
Hi
Does anyone know if there are any records for the Workhouse at Neath,
please?
My ancestor Sarah Thomas died there on 18 February 1886 aged 66 years of
Paralysis. Informant J W Mills Master of Workhouse Neath.
Sarah's husband David was already deceased he died 3 March 1876 aged 54
years. They are both buried in Michaelston Super Avon Church burial yard, is
there anyway of locating the grave's M.I, please?
Sarah had children living locally but perhaps they were unable to care for
her!
Thank you
Heather Smith
Yorkshire
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Hi
Does anyone know if there are any records for the Workhouse at Neath,
please?
My ancestor Sarah Thomas died there on 18 February 1886 aged 66 years of
Paralysis. Informant J W Mills Master of Workhouse Neath.
Sarah's husband David was already deceased he died 3 March 1876 aged 54
years. They are both buried in Michaelston Super Avon Church burial yard, is
there anyway of locating the grave's M.I, please?
Sarah had children living locally but perhaps they were unable to care for
her!
Thank you
Heather Smith
Yorkshire
My late sister, an early FH addict, once offered to help someone research
their family. Eventually she discovered that one of the ancestors was born
as a result of an incestuous relationship. After much soul searching she
decided not to tell the person she was helping, and just told her that she
had been unable to find anything. Not suggesting anything like that for the
current query, but it's just an example of things that were kept hidden,
with good reason.
In our own family, we discovered a gt. grandmother whose illegitimate birth
was concealed, though she undoubtedly knew of it by the time she was an
adult. She was a much respected and religious person, perhaps this helped
her overcome what was a stigma in the 1850s when she was born. Her true
place of birth was unknown to any of us [I don't think she herself knew it] and
it took years [and Free BMD] to find her birth certificate, in a different
county.
Best regards,
Wendy
Many thanks for such an impressive explanation, Jeff. I feel sorry for my friend as her parent does not wish to tell her about her ancestry. I think it stems from the difference in generations - I've found out a few facts which aren't awfully nice in my own family - but I take it "worts and all", the older generation, of which my friend's mother is one still find it hard to deal with things which they class as having a "stigma". Pity.
Best wishes,
Jane
> From: Jeff.Coleman(a)ntlworld.com
> To: janehope-2008(a)hotmail.co.uk; glamorgan(a)rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: [GLA] Query re birth and marriage certificates (or rather lack of)
> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 23:43:37 +0000
>
> Strange things happened in wartime.
>
> Marriages took place overseas. Marriages may also have taken place far from
> where you would expect, where one or other party was stationed. This could
> have been Scotland or Northern Ireland. Blitz and general disruption may
> have meant documentation was not readily available. Identity cards or ration
> cards may have been accepted as evidence of identity. Numbers of
> illegitimate births increased, including births to married women whose
> husbands were abroad on active service or in PoW camps. It is possible that
> not all information given for birth or marriage certificates was completely
> accurate. Ages may have been 'approximated'. Spellings may have been
> incorrectly recorded.
>
> I have had conversations with two people born in the 1940s whose mothers
> either refused to tell or were unable to tell who their fathers were. One
> knew only that he had been an American serviceman.
>
> There may also be couples who presented themselves as married, to family or
> to registrars of births, when this was not strictly accurate.
>
> As for births in the 1920s, legal adoption only came in about 1926, as as
> far as I recall. Transcribing 1920s births for FreeBMD we came across a lot
> of late entries, some as many as more than twenty years later, but quite a
> few when the child might have been leaving school and looking for a job. See
> http://www.freebmd.org.uk/vol_faq.html#6q and particularly
> http://www.freebmd.org.uk/vol_faq.html#13m for how these appear.
>
> Where there are late entries which can be linked to an indication in the
> correct birth quarter, FreeBMD shows this with a 'System Link' (icon is a
> red arrow pointing to a blue zigzag) which is described in
> http://www.freebmd.org.uk/search-faq.html#symbols
>
> It is quite possible that a birth was registered in the 1920s, but not with
> the surname used at the time of marriage. If a birth certificate of someone
> born in the 1940s shows a mother's maiden name, it may or may not show
> whether the mother was ever known by any other name, for example a previous
> marriage (maybe short-lived if the husband was in Bomber Command or the
> merchant navy) or marriages, and/or divorce. Some popular forenames in the
> 1920s, particularly for girls, were much disliked by the people they were
> given to, who used completely different forenames as adults. Look at how
> many death notices in the local paper have alternative forenames in
> brackets.
>
> It is also possible that foreign-sounding surnames may have been anglicised
> during WW1 when there were press-inspired outbreaks of xenophobia, but the
> family may have retained the original name for some purposes such as maiden
> name on a birth certificate. Also some soldiers adopted new identities if
> their original names might have led to victimisation or reprisals if they
> were ever captured. Think of Robert Maxwell the newspaper boss. I have also
> read of native Italian-speakers on commando raids in Italy who had
> completely false British identities and who had to conceal language
> knowledge when captured. If you had two identities, was the one used for
> marriage the same as that used years later?
> Deserters also adopted new identities.
>
> The secrets of parents are sometimes known by uncles or particularly aunts,
> and it may even be that cousins have been told secrets that the children of
> the people concerned do not know. It is also possible that cousins may have
> a distorted part of a story which may add to something found by research to
> make sense of a mystery.
>
> Remember that family history does not always uncover things that you want to
> know. There may be very good reasons for families discouraging the asking of
> too many questions.
>
> Jeff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jane Hope" <janehope-2008(a)hotmail.co.uk>
> To: <glamorgan(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2014 4:12 PM
> Subject: [GLA] Query re birth and marriage certificates (or rather lack of)
>
>
> > This query is rather awkward, in that I am researching for a friend whose
> > mother and father are still living, so I am unable to give names.
> >
> > My queries are:
> >
> > 1. Could someone be able to not be register a child's birth in the 1920s
> >
> > 2. Could someone get married (between 1939 and 1945) without producing
> > their birth certificate.
> >
> > (Birth and marriage both in UK)
> >
> > Many thanks
> >
> > Jane Hope
>
Dear Listers,
The latest subjects to be added to my 'Welsh Churches and Chapels
Collection' are:
1. Tabernacle Independent Chapel, Cefneithin, Carmarthenshire
(photography by John Ball)
2. Salem Baptist Chapel, Hay-on-Wye, Breconshire
(photography by John Ball)
Go to www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/churches/search-fram.htm and scroll down
the index to the relevant Cefneithin and Hay-on-Wye links.
My 'Welsh Churches and Chapels Collection' now features well over three
hundred churches and chapels, with at least another fifty in the pipeline.
Kind regards,
John
--------------------
John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK
E-mail: john(a)jlb2011.co.uk
Blog: http://johnofbrecon.com
Website: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/
Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/
Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/
GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/
Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists
Joint Webmaster - Breconshire Local & Family History Society:
www.blfhs.co.uk/
Hello List,
I hope someone can kindly help.
I have a John James - James on birth certificate.His mother named him after
John Smith after remarrying. Which surname should be used for a passport
and or national insurance number even.
I know for a fact -as he is still living-that he has not legally changed
his name by deed poll or other from James to Smith,
Thanks in advance
Yvonne Porton
Cardiff
UK
This query is rather awkward, in that I am researching for a friend whose mother and father are still living, so I am unable to give names.
My queries are:
1. Could someone be able to not be register a child's birth in the 1920s
2. Could someone get married (between 1939 and 1945) without producing their birth certificate.
(Birth and marriage both in UK)
Many thanks
Jane Hope
Thank you Jeff Coleman and Jim Lancaster. Your information has rescued me from a "Victorian Gothic"state of mind.
I had divided this municipal cemetery into three sections. Anglican/Welsh, all the others, then the unconsecrated.
Marion.
Hi, Jeff,
Thanks for this note. It dies not just provide a simple explanation of
'unconsecrated ground' but provides the historical background as well. This
is very helpful as it bridges the change from mainly churchyard burials to
mainly burials in mainly municipal cemeteries, with cremations to come
later.
Many thanks,
Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Coleman
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 11:37 PM
To: Jim Lancaster ; Marion ; glamorgan(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [GLA] rights to a grave
Thanks, Jeff - looks like you've cracked it again.
I'm waiting to hear back from family who lived there but I've checked my old
maps and although I can't see a California Row/Street it does seem that the
addition of this lower section, from Baptist Well Place down towards what's
now Dyfatty lights could account for the change in numbering.
Assuming a sequential row that included my #29 was added to and the odd one
side/even the other approach is adopted then 29 becomes 57 and the doctor's
surgery which my records show as 16 becomes the number 31 that my Dad
remembers. Not sure if I've written this down as clearly as it seemed in my
head!
Best wishes
Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Coleman [mailto:Jeff.Coleman@ntlworld.com]
Sent: 06 January 2014 23:30
To: Andrew Pritchard; Glamorgan List
Subject: Re: [GLA] Carmarthen Road, Swansea
A section of Carmarthen Road near the Greenhill end was known as California
Row at one time.
Again, from the Cambrian
DEATHS, WILLS, ESTATES, ETC. 03 May 1872 WILL CASE:RE.MARGARETJENNINGS,LATE
CALIFORNIA ROW,CARMARTHEN ROAD,SWANSEA.MENTIONED,REV. W. HADDOCK,CWMBWRLA.
P5
If these houses were ever numbered separately, then including them in
Carmarthen Road may have led to a change in the 'low-numbered' house
numbers.
I can't recall whether Carmarthen Road was always numbered odd on one side
and even on the other. If it wasn't, then switching to the odd/even split
may have led to the renumbering.
Looking at www.old-maps.co.uk at various dates for the area (I think you may
find it more easily by looking for Pontyglasdwr Street) may give a clue.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Pritchard" <andrew(a)transmat.co.uk>
To: "Glamorgan List" <GLAMORGAN-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 5:19 PM
Subject: [GLA] Carmarthen Road, Swansea
> Sections of Carmarthen Road in Swansea completely changed when the Council
> widened it in around 1980 and lots of properties were demolished but my
> research has thrown up something of a mystery.
>
>
>
> I have documentation for a property on Carmarthen Road in Swansea going
> back
> to 1924 when my g-grandfather signed a lease with the Council on number
> 29,
> expiring on 29 September 1963. I have subsequent documentation (marriage,
> birth certs) which show family at number 29 up to 1946 and the lease was
> then transferred to my grandfather in 1948.
>
>
>
> By the time that my g-grandfather died in 1953, number 29 has suddenly
> become number 57.
>
>
>
> In 1963, the original 1925 lease was extended but under the address of
> number 57. I even have a map plan from the original lease from the
> Council
> showing the property that everybody knows as 57 as 29. My Dad grew up at
> 57
> and he's certain that it's the same property.
>
>
>
> I think that it seems odd that the road would have been renumbered but
> something must have happened, perhaps between 1948 and 1953, to explain
> this
> change in numbers.
>
>
>
> If anybody has any thoughts or ideas to explain this then I'd love to hear
> them. Hope this all makes sense and I don't sound too mad.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
> --
>
> To send to the list send to glamorgan(a)rootsweb.com
> GLAMORGAN Family History Mailing List archives etc. are at
> http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/WLS/GLAMORGAN.html
> -
> This site has been prepared to help you use the Glamorgan List
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~glamorgan/
> -
> A large amount of information, and a wide variety of useful links, may be
> found at http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/
>
> -
> The South/West Wales Lookup Exchange and Gareth's Help Pages
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~walesle/wal/AW.html and
> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ukwales2/hicks.html
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GLAMORGAN-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi, Marion,
You ended your note with -
> The "unconsecrated ground" is worrying me most of all.
I have met this before in England, and it troubled me. Eventually, I found
that the term was used in municipal cemeteries for those parts of the
cemetery that had not been consecrated by the Anglican Bishop. Generally
all sections (Free Church, RC, etc.) outside the Anglican section.
This MIGHT apply to the graveyard where your grandmother is buried.
Jim Lancaster (Bury, Lancs.)
-----Original Message-----
From: Marion
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 10:50 PM
To: glamorgan(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [GLA] rights to a grave
Dear Shanna
There is an Elizabeth Charles baptised in Llangyfelach on 28 April
1802, father John Charles, no mother's name given. She had a twin,
David. There are two other children surnamed Charles with the same
father who may be siblings, namely
MARY - 13NOV 1791
JOHN - - 29MAY 1796
and also HENRY, baptised 01JUN 1806, where the mother's name is given
as MARY. This information comes from the Glamorgan FHS transcription
of the parish records.
I can't find a marriage in Llangyfelach for John -perhaps he married elsewhere.
Best wishes
Anna
At 16:10 07/01/2014, Shanna Jones wrote:
>My 4th great grandmother's parents were John Rees and Elizabeth Charles. I
>have found their marriage date. Here is the link:
>https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFH1-7VV
>
>It was 29 Jun 1823 in Llangyfelach, Glamorgan, Wales.
>
>
>
>I am trying to verify who Elizabeth Charles' parents were because I think
>there is some confusion in this family. In family records I found a
>christening date for Elizabeth Charles of 28 Apr 1802 Llangyfelach,
>Glamorgan, Wales. I haven't found the actual record to see who the parents
>are. I don't know much about these early records in Wales so I am looking
>for a lookup, assistance or advice please.
>
>
The sentence reads: The following [people] have been elected by the
Head Teachers of Wales to represent them on the University of Wales
Court for the next three years ; so the context fits the lady
concerned. Cynrychioli (with one n) means to represent.
I hope this helps. I'll be glad to help with any other translation
problems.
Glenys.
I would like to thank all the kind people who answered my enquiry. From the information I was given it was possible to find the email address I needed.
Now, a word of caution. Be careful what you ask for. I have answers that come with much sadness.
My grandmother was 30years old when she died in 1904 - six months into a pregnancy that went horribly wrong.
She is buried in unconsecrated ground, in a plot that is not owned. The grave never purchased. There is no headstone or marker.
In the years that followed, my grandfather was not able to change any of these circumstances and in 1914 he and my father were living in Australia.
I am a romantic at heart and had this notion that I would come to visit my grandmother's grave and arrange a headstone or plaque.
Well.. I can purchase the site for a considerable amount of money - less if I lived in the parish. Ownership would give me the right to place a headstone or plaque. The "unconsecrated ground" is worrying me most of all.
Again, thank you.
Marion.
Shanna -
Information from other submitters on FamilySearch.org state that her parents
were John and Mary Charles and list the village Morriston, so maybe that is
where she was baptized. It is possible to contact the people who submitted
the information thru FamilySearch. They might have more information.
Lynne in Tucson
-----Original Message-----
From: Shanna Jones
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 9:10 AM
To: glamorgan(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [GLA] REES / CHARLES Llangyfelach
My 4th great grandmother's parents were John Rees and Elizabeth Charles. I
have found their marriage date. Here is the link:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFH1-7VV
It was 29 Jun 1823 in Llangyfelach, Glamorgan, Wales.
I am trying to verify who Elizabeth Charles' parents were because I think
there is some confusion in this family. In family records I found a
christening date for Elizabeth Charles of 28 Apr 1802 Llangyfelach,
Glamorgan, Wales. I haven't found the actual record to see who the parents
are. I don't know much about these early records in Wales so I am looking
for a lookup, assistance or advice please.
Thank you so much!
Shanna Jones
--
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-
This site has been prepared to help you use the Glamorgan List
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-
A large amount of information, and a wide variety of useful links, may be
found at http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/
-
The South/West Wales Lookup Exchange and Gareth's Help Pages
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~walesle/wal/AW.html and
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-------------------------------
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My 4th great grandmother's parents were John Rees and Elizabeth Charles. I
have found their marriage date. Here is the link:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VFH1-7VV
It was 29 Jun 1823 in Llangyfelach, Glamorgan, Wales.
I am trying to verify who Elizabeth Charles' parents were because I think
there is some confusion in this family. In family records I found a
christening date for Elizabeth Charles of 28 Apr 1802 Llangyfelach,
Glamorgan, Wales. I haven't found the actual record to see who the parents
are. I don't know much about these early records in Wales so I am looking
for a lookup, assistance or advice please.
Thank you so much!
Shanna Jones
Prifathro ( plural Prifathrawon) is normally the word for headteacher. So
Miss Alice Bale was chosen by the headteachers of Wales to serve....
Before the fragmentation of the University of Wales (and later discrediting
of the rump organisation) a number of bodies were entitled to nominate
people to the Court, which was nominally the governing body. Whether a body
of several dozen worthies appointed by local authorities and various
all-Wales bodies could effectively govern or manage on a day-to-day basis I
don't know.
My recollection is that the Welsh Federation of Head Teachers still had the
right to nominate someone to the Court of the University as late as the
1960s. It would have been a rare honour for a woman to be nominated in 1918.
The Wikipedia article on the University of Wales explains in the first few
lines of its rather thin 'history' section the origins of the federal
university structure, and mentions two 'official histories' of the
University. The earlier one (1953) might well have a section describing the
role of the 'Court'.
I think I have contact with someone with knowledge of the old University of
Wales structures and you may get more information in due course.
There was a Mr Bale who was a teacher in Cardiff in a later generation who
used to accompany the groups on the Cardiff-Nantes exchange year on year.
Was that also your family?
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Bale" <mike.bale(a)ntlworld.com>
To: <GLAMORGAN-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 11:29 PM
Subject: [GLA] Welsh translation
>I wonder if someone could help with a translation of the following:-
>
> Y may y rhai canlynol wedi eu hethol gan Brifathrawon Cymru i w
> cynnrychioli ar Lys Prifysgol Cymru am y tair blynedd nesaf:- Miss Alice M
> Bale, Caerdydd;
> which is taken from the 19th March 1918 issue of Gwyliedydd Newydd that I
> found on the Cymru 1914 website.
>
> The best Google can do is:
>
> The following are those selected by the Principals of Government at the
> University of Wales Court i w cynnrychioli for the next three years.
> I couldn’t find ‘cynnrychioli‘ in any other online dictionary. Alice Bale
> was my great aunt. She was a head mistress in Cardiff at this period and
> seems to have been involved in the work of The National Federation of
> Women Teachers. The translation suggests that she had been elected to the
> Court for a 3 year term and it would be nice to confirm this.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Michael
> --
>
> To send to the list send to glamorgan(a)rootsweb.com
> GLAMORGAN Family History Mailing List archives etc. are at
> http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/WLS/GLAMORGAN.html
> -
> This site has been prepared to help you use the Glamorgan List
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~glamorgan/
> -
> A large amount of information, and a wide variety of useful links, may be
> found at http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/
>
> -
> The South/West Wales Lookup Exchange and Gareth's Help Pages
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~walesle/wal/AW.html and
> http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ukwales2/hicks.html
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GLAMORGAN-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I wonder if someone could help with a translation of the following:-
Y may y rhai canlynol wedi eu hethol gan Brifathrawon Cymru i w cynnrychioli ar Lys Prifysgol Cymru am y tair blynedd nesaf:- Miss Alice M Bale, Caerdydd;
which is taken from the 19th March 1918 issue of Gwyliedydd Newydd that I found on the Cymru 1914 website.
The best Google can do is:
The following are those selected by the Principals of Government at the University of Wales Court i w cynnrychioli for the next three years.
I couldn’t find ‘cynnrychioli‘ in any other online dictionary. Alice Bale was my great aunt. She was a head mistress in Cardiff at this period and seems to have been involved in the work of The National Federation of Women Teachers. The translation suggests that she had been elected to the Court for a 3 year term and it would be nice to confirm this.
Thanks in advance
Michael
________________________________
Dear List:
Now that the new year has begun, I will resend my request for information about Mary HOPKIN.
I am trying to find more marriage information for William LEWIS and Mary HOPKIN. I found a one line listing for this marriage in the Llangavelach Parish Bishop's Transcript found on a film at the LDS Family History Library. The date was March 15, 1799. Is there any place else I can look for more information, i.e. witnesses, age, etc.? Please help.
I'm trying to figure out who the parents of Mary are. It seems likely that she wouldn't be born after 1782. There is a Mary, daughter of David HOPKIN, baptized Feb. 22, 1775 in the Llangyfelach Parish Register shown on Findmypast.co.uk. Other family histories list a Mary born about 1777 to parents Wm HOPKIN and Anne WILLIAM, who aren't married until April 4, 1783 in Llangyfelach Parish according to the registers shown on Findmypast.co.uk. These people may also have had a daughter, Sarah, baptized Feb. 12, 1793. However, since the mother isn't listed in this parish register information, I can't be certain.
A family genealogy book written decades before now lists Mary as being born in Fforest Vach. I wrote before asking where the church records might be found for someone born in Fforest Vach and was told it might be Swansea or Llangyfelach. So I looked in Findmypast in the Swansea St. Mary Parish and found several possibilities.
Mary dr. of David HOPKIN - born Dec. 14 1779; bapt. Feb 19, 1780
Mary dr. of John HOPKIN - born Jan 12, 1779; bapt. Feb. 27, 1779
Mary dr. of William HOPKIN - born Jan. 1, 1781; bapt. Feb. 3, 1781
Mary (& twin Sarah) drs. of Jno HOPKIN - born Sept. 13, 1776; bapt. Sept. 13, 1776
What would you recommend for my next steps?
I wish you all a very good new year.
JoLynn Barneck