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I found this wonderful website, "Czech Research Outline", and wanted to share with all of you:
researching my bohemian ancestors: Swoboda/Svoboda from Briza
I am still searching for information on the Thoendel/Thöndel Familie that
resided in Bergstadt until the 1940's.
Is anyone in the area on the internet?
I have tried contacting the 'mayor' but she has never replied to my letters.
Thanks to All,,
"Don't believe everything you read in the Encyclopedia Britannica" was what
their chief medical consultant told me in 1960. I think the same goes for the
factual and legendary history of Bohemia.
Formerly of Bischofteinitz
I have been following the discussion regarding the origin of the
Bohemian-Germans--an area I have tried to learn more about lately also.
Two books which deal with origins/history are:
"Teuton & Slav" by Herman Schreiber, 1965 and
"Czechs & Germans: A Study of the Struggle in the Historic
Provinces of Bohemia & Moravia" by Elizabeth Wiskemann,
Both books have been mentioned on the List before, I think by Karen
Hobbs. Both were excellent. I got them through interlibrary loan at my
local library. Just thought they were worth mentioning again. :)
Janet from Az.
On Freitag, Jun 27, 2003, at 07:09 Europe/Vienna, Mike Kretsch wrote:
> Oma has written me that Bohemians are decended from
> Ostrogoths. Does this agree with anyone else's work?
Basically I would say:No.
There was undoubtedly Germanic settlement before the slavs arrived in
the first half of the sixth century (and even then it is doubtful if
many could be named Ostrogoths. The O. hardly hit Bohemia on their way
to Italy, via eastern Europe /Slovakia, Hungary?/ - Known in
Bohemia/Moravia are mainly Marcomans under Marbod, last mentioned 451
and afterwards, Suevi,, Vandals, Rugians. The Ostrogoths from late
480ies ruled south of the Danube. The Lombards left Moravia after the
death of the Ostrogoth Theoderic /in Italy/ ). Some Germans probably
mixed with the remains of previous celtic population, starting in the
last century before Christ. Like many celtic tribes, several germanic
tribes moved out of the area but some probably remained ad mixed with
the slavic ones.
The Greater Moravian state(8/9th century) extended then into todays
northern Austria. The western border of Bohemia remained settled by
germanic tribes (akin to or considering them selves as Bavarians,
German resettlement followed in medieval ages (settlers were encouraged
after tartar invasion, plague epidemics or as mining workers and
craftsmen). From the north german Silesians settled at the border
areas. Similar from the south. Across the settlement areas the
mixed/intermarried with the czechs.
Overall (German) Bohemians are a very mixed bunch. (and this is also
true for Czech Bohemians).
<Oma has written me that Bohemians are decended from
<Ostrogoths. Does this agree with anyone else's work?
Mmmmmm, I havent heard of the Ostergoths, I think they are really ancient.
Bohemia got its name from the Boii, a tribe descended from or a tribe of the Celts. The Romans knew of them and have described them in their texts. They lived in and around the present Bohemia. They evemtually died out and the Slavs moved in and they, I believe, are more directly related to todays present day Czechs, who by the way, dont think of themselves as Bohemians, but Czechs, at least thats what some have told me.
"Bohemians" I think is more a term passed on from Bohemian immigrants to the US, when Bohemia, was a province of the Austrian Empire, and prior to that their own independent Kingdom from maybe prior to 1000 AD to 1620, when they lost the Battle of White Mountain ( Bila Hora )
For good Czech history, go to.....
Mike in AZ
SWARTZ~SVARC / CERNY / HAJEK / HOSEK / HRABAC / KRESINGER / CERMAK / PERGLA
This is from Encyl. Britannica
(links may not work)
Bohemia's name comes from a Celtic people known as the Boii, though the
Slavic Czechs were firmly established in the region by the 5th or 6th century AD.
Bohemia was briefly subordinated to greater <A HREF="http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=55015">Moravia</A> in the late 9th century.
Saints Cyril and Methodius introduced Christianity into Bohemia from Moravia in
the 9th century, and by the 10th century Bohemia had been Christianized and
consolidated by the princes of the ruling Premyslid dynasty. Although they
gradually became dependent on the <A HREF="http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=109232">Holy Roman Empire</A> , the Premyslid rulers were
able to attach Moravia to Bohemia and transform them into a viable kingdom. The P
remyslid prince Vratislav II (reigned 1061–92) was the first to obtain from
the Holy Roman emperors the title of king of Bohemia as a personal
(nonhereditary) privilege, and in 1198 the greatest of the Premyslids, Otakar I, was named
hereditary king of Bohemia, which became a kingdom within the Holy Roman
Bohemia reached a new peak of political power and economic prosperity under <A HREF="http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=59081">
Otakar II</A> , who consolidated control over parts of Austria and waged wars for
territory with Hungary, extending Bohemia's domain to the Adriatic Sea. After
1278, however, when Otakar was killed in an invasion of Austria, Bohemia was
soon once again reduced in size and influence, and the Premyslid dynasty itself
came to an end in 1306. In 1310 the Luxembourg dynasty began its rule of the
kingdom of Bohemia, which by the end of the 14th century included Moravia,
Silesia, and Upper and Lower Lusatia, as well as the province of Bohemia. In 1355
the Luxembourg king of Bohemia, Charles I, became Holy Roman emperor as <A HREF="http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=22909">
Charles IV</A> . He is remembered for founding the University of <A HREF="http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=115194">Prague</A> (1348) and for
greatly increasing the boundaries and importance of Prague, which he made the
capital of the empire. From this time on Prague was a principal centre of
intellectual and artistic activity in central Europe.
Bohemia and Bavaria are neighboring countries. Bavaria lies southwest from
Bohemia, but matching the two countries, so far I white, were still never.
A. Henry Zimmermann
Current ICQ status:
* More ways to contact me <http://wwp.icq.com/158204939>
>From: alsstamp(a)netscape.net [mailto:email@example.com]
>Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 12:49 PM
>Subject: [GERMAN-BOHEMIAN] Bohemian/Bavarian
>I guess I should know this, but I don't, so forgive me for asking.
> What is Bohemia compared with Bavaria, or is Bohemia a section of
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This is what I found on the New Advent website
I am not familiar with European geography. It
sounds to me like most of Europe could be
descendants of this tribe.
One of the two chief tribes of the Goths, a
Germanic people. Their traditions relate that the
Goths originally lived on both sides of the Baltic
Sea, in Scandinavia and on the Continent. Their
oldest habitations recorded in history were
situated on the right bank of the Vistula. They
left these, all or in part, about the middle of
the second century, and settled near the Black
Sea, between the Don and Danube. Thence they
emerged frequently to attack and pillage the
cities of Greece and Asia Minor, and fought
continuously with the Romans and the neighbouring
Germanic tribes. The emperor Decius fell in battle
with them in 251. Crossing the Danube into Thracia
in 269 they were defeated by Claudius; Aurelian
drove them back across the Danube and gave them
Dacia. We now find the Ostrogoths east of the
River Dniester, and the Visigoths to the west.
During the reign of Constantine they again
attempted to cross the Danube but were repulsed.
During the years 350-75 the Goths were united
under the leadership of Ermanaric, the Ostrogoth.
In 375 they were conquered by the Huns. Some
escaped into the Crimea, where they retained their
language up to the sixteenth century; the mass of
the people, however, remained in their own lands
and paid tribute to the Huns; but were otherwise
fairly independent and elected their own kings.
When the empire of the Huns collapsed after the
death of Attila (453), the Ostrogoths regained
independence. Their old lands between Don and
Danube, however, they had to surrender to the
Huns, while they obtained Pannonia from the
Romans. Theodoric, the Amaling, who was their king
from 474 or 475, fought with the Byzantine emperor
Zeno at various times, although he obtained
peaceful relations during most of his reign. He
endeavoured to secure permanent domiciles for his
people. In 488 he started for Italy, aided and
abetted by Zeno. Theodoric defeated Odoacer, who
reigned as king in Italy, and founded in 493 the
great Ostrogothic Empire, which included Italy,
Sicily, Dalmatia, Upper Rhaetia, and later on
Provence, with the capital Ravenna, and which
stood under Byzantine suzerainty. Theodoric
dreamed of an amalgamation of the Teutons and the
Romans, of a Germanic state, in which the
Ostrogoths were to dominate. He succeeded in
establishing law and order in his lands; Roman art
and literature flourished. He was tolerant towards
the Catholic Church and did not interfere in
dogmatic matters. He remained as neutral as
possible towards the pope, though he exercised a
preponderant influence in the affairs of the
papacy. He and his people were Arians and
Theodoric considered himself as protector and
chief representative of the sect. His successor
did not possess the necessary vigour and ability
to continue this work. His daughter Amalasvintha
succeeded him in 526, first as regent for her son
Athalaric, and after the latter's death, in 534,
as queen. She was assassinated by her cousin
Theodahad, the rightful heir to the throne. The
Byzantine emperor Justinian now made himself her
avenger and declared war upon the Ostrogoths. His
general Belisarius captured Naples in 536. In
place of the incompetent Theodahad the Goths chose
Witiches as king, but he also proved to be an
incapable general. Belisarius succeeded in
entering Ravenna in 539 and in taking Witiches
prisoner. After his recall in 540, the Goths
reconquered Italy under their new king Totila. In
544 Belisarius appeared once more and the war was
continued with varying success. In 551 Narses
became commander-in-chief in place of Belisarius,
and in the following year he defeated Totila at
Taginae in the Apennines. Totila was killed in the
battle. The survivors of the Ostrogoths chose Teja
as their king, but were practically annihilated in
the battle near Mount Vesuvius in 553, after a
desperate struggle in which Teja was killed. Their
last fortress fell in 555, after which the
Ostrogoths disappear. The few survivors mingled
with other peoples and nations; some were
romanized in Italy, and others wandered north
where they disappeared among the various Germanic
tribes. Italy became a Byzantine province.
Oma has written me that Bohemians are decended from
Ostrogoths. Does this agree with anyone else's work?
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
Hi GBHS listers. I will be on vacation from 28 June - 12 July and
without regular email access. Hopefully there won't be any problems
during that time period.
German-Bohemian List Admin
Jean Tauer wrote:
> This list has been so helpful in the past, I'm hoping someone
> can help me with this. I had two uncles who died during WWII in the
> American Army. My question is where would their death certificates be
> located? My aunt has a lot of things that were sent to the family, but
> not death certificates. Does anyone know where they might be located?
> Would they be with the Department of Defense? How would I go about
> getting a copy?
DD (Defense Department) Form 1300 is the military's equivalent of a
Contact your local Veterans Affairs office and they will help you.
> Is it possible to get a copy of their military records?
> Both were single and had no children. The nearest living relatives are
> 5 siblings. Could I have one of them request the records?
File a Freedom of Information Act request with the National Personnel
Records Center in St. Louis. The NPRC is part of the National Archives
and Records Administration.
This list has been so helpful in the past, I'm hoping someone
can help me with this. I had two uncles who died during WWII in the
American Army. My question is where would their death certificates be
located? My aunt has a lot of things that were sent to the family, but
not death certificates. Does anyone know where they might be located?
Would they be with the Department of Defense? How would I go about
getting a copy? Is it possible to get a copy of their military records?
Both were single and had no children. The nearest living relatives are
5 siblings. Could I have one of them request the records?
Cross-posted from the PBS list:
Reference: Church records from parts of Poland / former Austrian Silesia
that the Germans "liberated" from local parishes there during WW II.
Be sure to visit the Regensburg web site and explore it.
If your gg grandfather was Protestant rather than Catholic than you
> will probably find records in the Evangelical Central Archive in Berlin.
> See the index at http://www.ezab.de/e/ebframe.html
> You might find the following site of interest as well for other West
> Prussian info:
> Apparently some Roman Catholic Records from former West Prussia are located
> at the Regensburg Central Archive
4803 Constitution Ave
Colorado Springs, CO 80915-1008
This mail (apart from "3rd. extension, List 6") will be really
interesting only for persons researching in Sudeten German
Recently, I added the following 3 extensions to my existing web
pages about Bohemia, the Sudetenland, and especially the
Sudeten German Kreis Luditz.
A short information on Rudolf Hemmerle's "Heimat im Buch"
(difficult to translate, means something like "Homeland
Literature"), a book edited by the "Sudetendeutsches Archiv" in
Munich. This book contains a bibliography (as known by the
Sudetendeutsches Archiv) of all books and periodicals etc.
covering Sudeten German places, districts, and country, during
a defined period of time. Among this literature, you will find
the often mentioned "Heimatbuecher".
I was not allowed explicitly to publish, in my pages, at least
the place register of the book, which would have helped
everybody to look if the book contained literature information
for a certain place (s)he is interested in.
For the Sudeten German Kreis Luditz [refer also to my
subsequent 2nd. extension], this book's list only fills one and
a half page (not counting the separate periodicals).
There is a German and an English verion of my page.
A much more extended bibliography of my native Sudeten German
Kreis Luditz. This is a very large page, with very much
specialized information on literature which has appeared since
long ago unto the present month.
It even contains some (pre-)information on books going to
appear during the second half of this year, but their data are
not yet complete, naturally. Therefore, the page will be
updated, when necessary and possible.
I am sorry: this page is available in German only. I did not
dare translating it, and there is information which must not be
translated anyway (like titles etc.), if you want to look for
it in bookshops or libraries). But a normal dictionnary should
help those who want to do genealogy and are not willing to ever
learn some useful terms of German.
For each piece of literature in this page, I added one or more
links to German or Austrian libraries (with their detailed
individual information, including e-address and homepage URL
for catalog research, if possible) where this literature is
And if you want to research catalogs yourself, you will find
the URL of a German literature meta search engine located at
the university of Karlsruhe (named KVK), which is able to
search, in one run, 75 millions of books etc.
The bibliography is sorted by author (or editor, if author
omitted), and within author, by title.
The page text contains German "Umlaute". I don't know, if you
can search text strings on this page with the options you
selected for your browser (the same happens with any other
German web page).
The 1st. and 2nd. extensions may be found at the following
German and English main pages:
selecting item "1. Genealogy in General (with examples ...)",
which should link to my general genealogy pages at
where you would select one of the 2 links wiht the text string
[3rd. updated extension]
Apart from List 6, only covers Kreis Luditz !!!
Only in German (with original "Umlaute") !!!
Contains several lists linked among themselves.
List 1 (of 3rd. extension):
A genealogical index register of Kreis Luditz places
(communities with own administration) and their sub-places
(individual parts of each community, and relevant isolated
buildings which may be referred to even in church registers,
like "Schaeferei" = sheep farm, "Abdeckerei" = knacker's yard,
Place index is ordered alphabetically, to select each place or
subplace, in order to get a page with the corresponding total
Data in each genealogical community page are (e.g.):
Nme(s) German and Czech; geographic position(s); several public
administration data; parish(es) applying (at which times);
dominion(s) applying (at which times); all sub-place names.
If data for sub-places are different from (main) place, their
own data are shown explicitely.
List 2 (of 3rd. extension):
An alphabetical list of all places (only) of Kreis Luditz, with
some statistical data (taken from the "Sudetendeutsches
Ortsnamenverzeichnis"). As of 1938-1945.
List 3 (of 3rd. extension):
A hierarchical list of all Sudeten German "Gaue", their
"Regierungsbezirke" and "Stadtkreise"/"Landkreise" (taken from
the "Sudetendeutsches Ortsnamenverzeichnis"). To this list, I
added the corresponding "Kennziffern" (also known as "W-
numbers"). These Kennziffern are the identifications for the
"Kreise" (and regions), as used officially by the current
German administration, e.g. by Standesaemter = Vital Statistics
List 4 (of 3rd. extension):
A list of all parishes in Kreis Luditz, each one with all the
place and sub-place names which
belonged (at some time) to it.
List 5 (of 3rd. extension):
A list of all dominions in Kreis Luditz, each one with all the
place and sub-place names which
belonged (at some time) to it.
List 6 (of 3rd. extension):
A hierarchical list of the "Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia",
i.e. practically the rest of the
Czechoslovak territory. It shows the protectorate "Land"
(country) and its "Politische Bezirke"
(Political Districts, divided in "Stadtbezirke" und
"Landbezirke". Names are in German AND IN
CORRECT DIACRITIC CZECH. If you want to see the Czech names
correctly, your browser must
support the unicodes of character set ISO 8859-1 or similar.
Otherwise most of the Czech
special characters will show garbage.
This list also includes the corresponding "Kennziffern" (also
known as "W-numbers"), similar to List 3.
If you have problems, suggestions, corrections, please send me
-- "Auge um Auge" macht schließlich alle blind.
-- El "ojo por ojo", al final, ciega a todos.