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Dear all,
First, thanks for the info on Clemence. I haven't had time to look into
any of the Web sites, yet.
I have a question about Abraham. On the anniversary of his birthday,
McNeal New Hour (PBS) had some time on him.. It was stated by one of the
historians that Nancy Hanks (our cousin) was illegitimate. I was really
surprised. Does anyone know about this. Ages and ages ago, I read
Sandburg's biography and that fact I don't remember.
Priscilla
Beth, Susan, Emily, and other interested parties,
Susan, the only real reference I have to Clemence [other than a couple of links that mention her
as a consort of King John - "met" is my favorite term] is from "The Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants
to the American Colonies or the United States" by Gary Boyd Roberts [p. 305-307.]
p. 305: 2. [illegitimate by Clemence, possibly Clemence Dauntsey, wife of Nicholas de Verdun] Joan Plantagenet= Llewelyn Fawr ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales.
At generation 16 the descent splits to Pugh and Evans families . In his sources list, Roberts cites "Owen, Evans and Allied Families", Bartrum 1 & 2. [Need to copy his sources page!] Also mentions an upcoming
article in "TG" [?] by Douglas Richardson of Tucson, AZ. [Any body know what TG is? Same as TAG? Or
Tucson Geneaolgist?!!!!]
A couple of sites mention Clemence, but offer no other info on her.
www.ancestry.com = Clemence Dauntsey [c 1162 England - 1201 Wales]
Kindred Connections [membership site] has much of the "Royal" lineage back to the "wee early days."
www.unt.edu/faculty/rbradl/ancestor/10003709.htm [Ancestors of Robert C. Bradley] Bradley's research is quite interesting.
Also check the LDS Family search site, of course.
I pieced things together with a mix of Ancestry, Bradley, and LDS. There were the usual date discrepencies,
especially with Ancestral File [mother b. 873, child born 877, etc.]
Another fun site for the Odin info is on the way as a seperate e-mail ahead of this one. The Norse Sagas is the
main story.
More later!
Terry
Greetings,
Thanks Roland for the great list. I hope we can have some responses for
the call to help. Please post what you are ordering so the group doesn't
repeat your efforts.
Beth, your info on the Price home is very interesting. I will try to get
more done on the Welsh Land Tenure as I recall mention that the owner of
the land did have a farm and it is referred to by a particular name.
I greatly doubt that the farm at Fron Goch is the Price home farm. The
current residence have been there much longer than 1985 and they are not
Price, but Davies. The father of the current resident received the tenancy
and the current resident stated to me that his son will be allowed to
remain as they had a three-generation tenancy. After that, the farm
reverts to a year or so lease. The current resident told me he was a "54
model." After a minute we caught on....he meant he was born in 1954. (He
asked us what "model" we were! <G>)
I think the Price home could be the farm at Rhiwlas (is located near Bala,
as well). Mr. Davies did make reference to Fron Goch being part of the
Price estate.
I intend to visit several farms in the area, inc. Rhiwlas. (We'll have to
put the Price farm on the list.) It didn't get it's name hap-hazardly! <G>
I'm curious to see if people on the other farms of the Rhiwlas estate
contain families who are related. I do suspect the possibility that in the
time of our Evan ap Robert ap Lewis that there were people from the near
farms that connect to us. It is possible that we have a common ancestor
with the Price family, as well.
Thanks for the info and please do pursue your lead. It can only be helpful.
It may be a grand idea, if someone will start a list of what we need to
check and what we need to visit. All the little places, etc. It would be
nice to have them all in one spot and not totally separate pieces of paper.
Perhaps if everyone will enter their ideas, someone who isn't going would
have the time to compile an organized list of what is posted. I know I
would be most grateful!
Thanks everyone!!!
Emily
Beth and others who may be new to genealogy resources....
Look in your phone book under CHURCHES. Find the section for the Church of
Latter Day Saints. Then check for the Family History Center listings and
find the one closes to you.
IF you live in a city, there may be more than one. In that case, it can be
beneficial to visit several as each has a different collection that is
permanent to that center.
The people there are very helpful, but call and check on the times. They
are all volunteers and may be open only a few hours a day. They do try to
be open in the evening on some days. They are closed on church days and
some of their own holidays.
You must read the film at the History Center on microfilm readers. You are
allowed to read ANY film that is in the center whether you ordered it or
not. Like I said, some film is permanent and others have been ordered by
patrons.
The people there can help you check the microfisch to see what is relevant
to you. You copy the film numbers and name and then order the film or
microfish.
Microfish stays at the library forever and is about $.35 each. The film is
$3.65 (about that, at least) and takes a few weeks to arrive. You may have
about 5 weeks to see it. IF you wish to have the film stay permanently you
pay $10 per roll. You may see the film and then decide to keep it
permanently, at which time you just pay the difference between the $3.65
and $10.
Besides the microfisch and microfilm readers, there is a reader which will
print copies of what pages you find on the film or fisch. That's about
$.50 per page, I think.
I've not been for a while (ours isn't open at times that are great for
teachers), so the prices may not be exact.
There are also some books at these locations....and computers to check the
IGI, etc.
You may be surprised to find a Family History Center is some very small
towns, as well.
Jump in, if I left something out.
Best wishes,
Emily
Dear Beth, Emily, and you' all
Beth--Thanks a million for the info on the TAPESTRY THREADS book. I will
write to see if any copies are still available and let you know.
Emily--I did get a copy of the book RESEARCHING WELSH ANCESTRY by John and
Sheila Rowland. I was disappointed in the section on the Pugh Family. It
was from the period 1775-1900...too late to help us on our earlier FRONGOCH
ancestors. I have not read the book yet. It may contain other resource
info for our research. If so I will let you know.
Emily noted earlier the Evans family connection to Abe Lincoln. I'm not
sure everyone has any of the sources for this. In case not following is an
excerpt from WELSH SETTLEMENT OF PENNSYLVANIA by Charles H. Browning, 1912,
p.284:
2. EVAN AP EVAN of Vron Goch farm, Merionethshire, who had:
I.--THOMAS EVANS, 1651-1738, removed to Gwynedd
II.--ROBERT EVANS, removed to Gwynedd, d. in 1738
III.--OWEN EVANS, 1659-1723, removed to Gwynedd
IV.--CADWALADER EVANS, 1664-1745, removed to Gwynedd in 1698. He m.,
Ellin, daughter of John Morris, of Bryn Gwyn,
Denbighshire, by his wife, Ellin, daughter of Ellis Williams, of Caifadog,
also of Royal Descent, and had:
SARAH EVANS, who m. at the Gwynedd Meeting, 11, 10mo., 1711,
John Hank, of White Marsh, will dated 12 Dec. 1730, proved in
May, 1731, and had besides other children:
1. JOHN HANK, JR., b. 1712, who sold his farm near Reading,
Pa., in 1787, and removed eventually to Fayette Co., Ky.,
where his daughter, NANCY, m. Thomas Lincoln, and settled in Larue Co.,
Ky., and here was
born their only child, ABRAHAM LINCOLN, twice President of the United
States.
Sincerely
Randall
--- G. Pugh
--- grandallpugh(a)earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
Hi All!
The wife or concubine or mistress or whatever of King John was Clemence DAUNTSEY.
LDS Records show Isabella as Joan's mother, but recent sources seem to lean toward
Clemence. I got carried away on this and traced the line back through William the Conqueror,
Charlemagne, and - I love this one - ODIN! [Founder of and god of Vikings.] Of course there is
the little problem of one of these guys marrying/fathering a child by his daughter.
If anyone is interested in a couple of links on tracking this madness, let me know.
Terry
Terry and Everyone,
I've been meaning to ask you, Terry, if you could tell us more about
Clemence Dauntsey. Was she Norman French or Poitivan? I've been wondering
about her background. What sources do you have for her? I've seen that she
was the wife of Henry Pinel. Is that what you have seen? I'd love to know
more and appreciate any info you have on our many-greats grandmother,
Clemence.
And Priscilla, thanks for posting those two lines from Llywelyn Fawr. I
have many more and will post them when I have time. You must have been
reading my mind, because I've been thinking for awhile now that I should post
those lines. So thanks from a busy mother who is now preparing for a belated
17th birthday party for her oldest daughter! I'll have about 20 people here
for dinner tomorrow night!
Susan
Dear Randall & all,
Thanks for the gentle prodding on trying to locate a passenger list for the Robert & Elizabeth's voyage in 1698 with so many of our relatives. I phoned Maurie Evans (through Thomas ap Evan's line, & he still lives in Gwynedd), as the most information I've been able to find has been through his book, "Tapestry Threads". He is a benefactor to the Haverford Library Special Collections, largely thousands of letters which he's indexed from generations of the Evans & Cope families (the Evans & Copes of the area overlapped quite a bit as well as being original founders of Haverford College). I've elsewhere found reference to Maurie & his wife and "The J.M. & A.T. Evans Fund Project" @ Haverford (he was class of '43).
Anyway... after identifying myself & expressing my interest, we chatted & he's not certain that a passenger list exists, but also couldn't remember offhand what his resource was for the information he published. He did a quick look-up in Jenkins' book, but his first thought was to contact the Welsh Society in Philadelphia & ask them. All this time and I've never heard of a "Welsh Society" there. He said they're a good source of information & wanted him to join, but he wasn't interested (!). So after talking about Radnor Meeting a bit, we left the conversation with him saying he would go back into his notes, and also call the Welsh Society, and either phone or mail me what he found. So that's my update. I'm hopeful.
One other thing he mentioned, before moving on in his conversation is that when he was in Wales in 1985, he visited the Price home just outside of Bala. He referred to it as the old family farmhouse, not the Frongoch farmhouse, and met with the Prices who still reside in it. He said the 12 year old boy he met was going to be the 15th or 16th generation to reside there. He went on in his conversation, but now I'm wondering if the current Price family in that house might be a resource to contact directly regarding Rhwilas (& Frongoch) information or records - to say nothing of our band of travelers being able to see the house firsthand. We know where some records are, but I'd sure hate to miss something with everyone only a couple of miles away! I'll jot Maurie a note & see if he has an address or contact person there.
That's it for now. Beth.
Hi Cousins,
Here's where I expose my outdated reliance on physical books & records: I've never been to an FHC or dealt with their films though I've certainly seen plenty of references to them. If there's one in Denver, I'm about 125 miles & 2 passes from it. If I ordered a film (ie Roland's impending posting) is it something I can do @ home? Do I need special equipment to read it?
I'm completely ignorant of the process & need a beginner's step-by-step explanation. Think of it as a research investment!
Thanks, Beth.
OLD OCCUPATION TERMS
Accomptant Accountant
Almoner Giver of charity to the needy
Amanuensis Secretary or stenographer
Artificer Soldier mechanic who does repairs
Bailie Bailiff
Baxter Baker
Bluestocking Female writer
Boniface Keeper of an inn
Brazier One who works with brass
Brewster Beer manufacturer
Brightsmith Metal Worker
Burgonmaster Mayor
Caulker One who filled up cracks (in ships or windows or seams to make them watertight by using tar or oakum-hem fiber produced by taking old ropes apart
Chaisemaker Carriage maker
Chandler Dealer or trader; one who makes or sells candles; retailer of groceries, ship supplier
Chiffonnier Wig maker
Clark Clerk
Clerk Clergyman, cleric
Clicker Servant of a salesman who stood at the door to invite customers; one who received the matter in the galley from the compositors and arranged it in due form ready for printing; one who makes eyelet holes in boots using a machine which clicked.
Cohen Priest
Collier Coal miner
Colporteur Peddler of books
Cooper One who makes or repairs vessels made of staves & hoops, such as casks, barrels, tubs, etc.
Cordwainer Shoemaker, originally any leather worker using leather from Cordova/Cordoba in Spain
Costermonger Peddler of fruits and vegetables
Crocker Potter
Crowner Coroner
Currier One who dresses the coat of a horse with a currycomb; one who tanned leather by incorporating oil or grease
Docker Stevedore, dock worker who loads and unloads cargo
Dowser One who finds water using a rod or witching stick
Draper A dealer in dry goods
Drayman One who drives a long strong cart without fixed sides for carrying heavy loads
Dresser Surgeon's assistant in a hospital
Drover One who drives cattle, sheep, etc. to market; a dealer in cattle
Duffer Peddler
Factor Agent Commission merchant; one who acts or transacts business for another; Scottish steward or bailiff of an estate
Farrier Blacksmith, one who shoes horses
Faulkner Falconer
Fell Monger One who removes hair or wool from hides in preparation for leather making
Fletcher One who made bows and arrows
Fuller One who fulls cloth; one who shrinks and thickens woolen cloth by moistening, heating, and pressing; one who cleans and finishes cloth
Gaoler Keeper of the goal, a jailer
Glazier Window glassman
Hacker Maker of hoes
Hatcheler One who combed out or carded flax
Haymonger Dealer in hay
Hayward Keeper of fences
Higgler Itinerant peddler
Hillier Roof tiler
Hind A farm laborer
Holster A groom who took care of horses, often at an inn
Hooker Reaper
Hooper One who made hoops for casks and barrels
Huckster Sells small wares
Husbandman Farmer who cultivated the land
Jagger Fish peddler
Journeyman One who had served his apprenticeship and mastered his craft, not bound to serve a master, but hired by the day
Joyner/Joiner Skilled carpenter
Keeler Bargeman
Kempster Wool comber
Lardner Keeper of the cupboard
Lavender Washer woman
Lederer Leather maker
Leech Physician
Longshoreman Stevedore
Lormer Maker of horse gear
Malender Farmer
Maltster Brewer
Manciple Steward
Mason Bricklayer
Mintmaster One who issued local currency
Monger Seller of goods (ale, fish)
Muleskinner Teamster
Neatherder Herds cows
Ordinary Keeper Innkeeper with fixed prices
Pattern Maker Maker of a clog shod with an iron ring. A clog was a wooden pole with a pattern cut into the end
Peregrinator Itinerant wanderer
Peruker Wig maker
Pettifogger Shyster lawyer
Pigman Crockery dealer
Plumber One who applied sheet lead for roofing and set lead s, etc.
Whitesmith Tinsmith; worker of iron who finishes or polishes the work
Whitewing Street sweeper
Whitster Bleach of cloth
Wright Workman, especially a construction worker
Yeoman Farmer who owns his own land
compiled by Dan Burrows
>"I put these 130 items together from many sources and used it as a handout >for our local Orange County (NY) Genealogical Society. I was asked by many >recipients if the CHART could be forwarded to other lists or used in local >newsletters. The answer is yes please share this information."
>Dan Burrows - dburrows1(a)juno.com
Dear all,
I read Emily's discussion of membership in the Fron Goch list. I am
afraid I have not contributed much to the education of the others on the
list. Emily mentioned a table of Welsh and English Kings, so I thought I
would post these lists, none of which I take credit for.
Gwynedd: Main Line (from www.castlewales.com)
IAGO ap IDWAL
I
Cynan ap Iago
I
GRUFFYDD ap CYNAN (d.1137 = Angharad
I
Cadwaladr (d. 1172)--OWAIN GWYNEDD (d1170) = Gwladus
I
Rhun (d.1146) ----Iorwerth Drwyndyn = Margaret ------Hwyl(d.1170)
I
LLYWELYN FAWR (d.1240) = Tangwystl
I
Gruffydd ap Llwelyn (d.1244) = Senena
Owain Goch -----LLYWELYN ap GRUFFYD ------Rhodri
(d.c.1282 Dafydd (d.1283)
(d.1282)
Lists provided me by Susan Hammond about a year ago , which started all this!
EVAN ROBERT LEWIS' DESECNT FR0M LLYWELYN FAWR
AND PRINCESS JOANNA OF ENGLAND
1. Llywelyn Fawr (The Great) ap Iowerth King of Gwynedd. Prince of Wales
born 1173, died 1246. m. Joanna (Joan) daughter of King John of England,
and an unknown woman named Clemence.
2. Dafydd Prince of Wales and an unknown woman (not his wife, Isabela de
Broase)
3. Llwelyn (Constable of Rhuddlan Castle under King Edward I
4. Cynwrig (Constable of Rhuddlan)
5. David Lloyd (the brown or the gray) m. Anne verch "Y gwyn Lloyd of
Rhiwaedog" ap Madog ap Rhirid Flaidd, Lord of Penllyn
6. Mawd m. David Goch (the red) son of Trahairn Goch ap Madoc who descended
from the Lord Rhys.
7. Ievan Goch m. Eva dau. of Einion ap Cynvelyn (who traced descent from
Bleddyn, Prince of Wales, according to "Merion in the Welsh Tract")
8. Madoc
9. Deikws Ddu (the dark) m. Gwen verch Ievan Ddu
10. Einion m. Morvydd verch Matw ap Llowarch
11. Howell m. Mali (Mary) verch Llwelyn
12. Griffith m. Gwenllian verch Einion m. Gwenhwyfar (desc. from Prince
Gruffydd ap Llyweln Fawr) - see "Merion"
13. Lewis m. Ellen (Ethli) verch Edward (see "Merion")
14. Robert Lewis m. Gwervyl verch Llywelyn
15. Evan Robert Lewis m. Jane Cadwallader (Heiress of Fron Goch, desc. from
Rhirid Fflaidd)
EVAN ROBERT LEWIS' DESCENT FR0M LLYWELYN FAWR AND
TANGWYSTL GOCH
1. Llwelyn Fawr and Tangwystl Goch (the red) of Rhos
2. Gruffydd Prince of Wales m. Senena verch Caradog (cousins)
3. Dafydd, the last Prince of Wales (hung, drawn and quartered in 1282 by
Edward I for high treason) and Tangwystl verch Owain Fflam of Deheubarth.
4. Dafydd Goch, Lord of Penmanchno m. Angharad verch Heilin ap Sir Tudor,
Knt.
5. Griffith
6. Griffith Fychan (the younger)
7. Rhys Gethin
8. Ievan
9. Llywelyn
10. Griffith
11. Anne
12. Gwenhwyfar m. Einion (desc. from Hedd Molwynog, founder of the 9th Noble
Tribe of Wales)
13. Gwenllian m. Griffith ap Howell
14. Lewis m. Ellen (Ethli) verch Edward and Catherine
15. Robert Lewis m. Gwervyl verch Llywelyn ap David of Llan Rwst, Denbighshire
16. Evan Robert Lewis m. Jane Cadwallader
SOURCES
"Welsh Genealogies" by Peter C. Bartrum (Table Gruffydd ap Cynan 5 of vol, 3
in series 300-1400)
"Heraldic Visitation to Wales and Part of the Marches" by Lewis Dwnn
"Merion in the Welsh Tract" by Thomas Allen Glenn
"Gwynedd" by Howard M. Jenkins
"Some of the Descendants of Evan Robert Lewis of Fron Goch, Wales" from
"Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography", vol.24, pp 203-206
"Peniarth Manuscripts" (128D pp. 147a, 281a, 282b, and 134B p. 248 courtesy
of National Library of Wales.
"Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants" by Gary Boyd Roberts
"Here Be Dragons" by Sharon Kay Penman (author's notes)
I have no idea how much of this is new to you - as I said I owe it all to
Susan. Thanks Emily and Beth for all the interesting info.
Priscilla
Beth and others!
This is wonderful news! I collect it for Visa, telephone, flying AND NOW
my FINGERS! --NOW, I am sure I will be able to return to Wales!
Thanks for the terms. I don't think you received the list from me, but
even so, do post it again.....we could use the refresher course!
If you dont receive another installment by late Sunday, yell at me. We are
demolishing walls Saturday and entering phase II of the remodel. IF my
fingers are still operable or not little nubs, I'll put more mileage on
them.....I can always use more mileage!
BTW, the other book I just received was Snowdonia and Northern Wales....but
is is newer. I'll check it out later. Remember, I also ordered 4 others
from Genealogy Book Store and Geneal. Pub Co (Bishop's Transcripts).
Roland is intending to list some FHC film we all need to split up and
order. PLEASE jump in to help when he does. Time is running out and we
can't do it all. We (the group going to Wales) really could use your support.
Priscilla, I promise to call the travel agent and decide on a return date.
I'm about ready to say, let's just drive to Heathrow and return the car. I
don't know the cost of a place at the airport, but my plane leaves about
11am. How about yours? What airlines are you on? I do United. I think
we are looking at around $300 US for a week. Has anyone gotten a better
car rate? Do let us know what company.
Best wishes,
Emily
Here are some more terms one might find in old documents from Dick Jones on the Powys List:
"A hundred was a subdivision of a county or shire, made up of a number of parishes. In Wales each county or shire consists of between four and eight hundreds.
Originally in the Anglo-Saxon period a hundred was deemed to contain exactly one hundred hides of land. A hide was defined as being as much land as could be tilled with one plough in a year, normally equal to 100 acres, but the size of the acre varied. This was considered to be the amount of land required by one _free_ man and his wife, with their dependants."
I think I already posted livery of seizin which stumped me for a while. I also have a long list of terms of old occupations & will post them if anyone would like (or did I get the list from Emily? I've already lost track of where I found it...).
Though I hate to put more mileage on your fingers, Emily, I really like the info.
Beth.
Greetings,
Recently, I purchased from DataWales.com a couple of books and found some
info that can help us, I hope.
_The Welsh People_ by John Rhys and David Brynmor-Jones, T. Fisher Unwin,
pub, London, 1906, p. 399-401
FYI:
wele or gwely = family gorup
tydynau = homesteads
cymwds = land divisions during the time of the Welsh princes
cantref = two cymwds
nativi = bond tenants
"When a new tribesman was born into the tribe, both parents being full
tribal blood, he remained, according to Welsh custom or tradition, more or
less rigidly adhered to, under the paternal lordship of his father, and was
maintained by his father till he was fourteen. At fourteen, he claimed
from the kindred, and not from his father, his full tribal rights. That
is, he was apparently provided with cattle, independently of his father,
and became liable to answer for his own misdeeds, and his father was no
longer obliged to maintain him. When he married, if not before, he was
allowed to establish himself in a separate homestead or tydyn, and became,
like his fellow-tribesmen, a small dairy farmer on his own account, putting
his cattle into the common heerd along with the rest. He also had a right
to join in the common ploughing of portions of the waste. This tribal
provision for his maintenance he got from the kindred to which he belonged,
and not by inheritance from his father. But he also had a prospective
right or chance of one day,if he lived long enough, becoming the successor
of his father's rights or privileges, and of becoming, on the death of his
ancestors, the head of a wele. The ordinary tribesman, therefore, was in a
double position: he was a member of a kindred with tribal rights of
maintenance, and not a joint tenant of any particular land. And at the
same time, prospectively, and by possibility, he might suceed to the
headship of a wele, and so become the person in whom the landed rights of a
family group were vested.
"This, according to traditional theory,and to some extent in practice, was
the complicated condition of things in North Wales at the conquest as
regards the free tribesmen. The English surveyors described it as best
they could, and the Crown lawyers judge it right under the terms arranged
on the conquest to let these Welsh family units of land occupation continue
under Welsh custom.
"...till the statue of Henry VIII, when English law as extended to Wales,
and the laws of primogeniture and English tenure were introduced.
"Then, at last, after many generations of confusion, it became necessary
for the Crown lawyers to bring whatever remained of the tribal rights of
the descendants of the free tribesmen under some category of English law,
and so define their rights for the future.
"But there is also the case of the non-tribesmen or strangers in blood to
be considered before we go futher.
"The distinguishing mark of this class was the absence of tribal blood, and
this, in North Wales, was technically and under tribal tradition an
impassable barrier between the stranger and the tribesmen for ever; whilst
in South Wales it only could be bridged by continued residence under a
chieftain for nine generations, or by repeated intermarriage with
tribeswomen for four generations.
"The typical tenure of these non-tribesmen -- who were settled upon the
estates of the cheiftain or head tribesmen, and called tacogs or aillts (my
note: the two lls are crossed with a wavy line) or alltuds (same wavy
line) -- was that which in the extents is called by the common name of
"trefgevery," the holding of tir cyfrif, or "register land," as opposed to
the tribesmen's holdings in gwelys. Its peculiarity was that there were no
rights of inheritance, no family groups with their heads, but that in the
hamlet or group of these non-tribesmen there was absolute equality between
all males above fourteen. parents and children, side by side, all were
treated alike, except that the youngest son kept house with his father, and
had no separate recognition.
"This was the normal tenure of non-tribesmen, but as regards some classes
of strangers, after residence for four generations in the same place,
kindred was recognised in the non-tribesman's family, but from that moment
and for ever after its descendants became adscripti glebae (ae is run
together).
"Hence the surveyors when they came to make the extents found two classes
of non-tribesmen: those living in groups or hamlets with no rights of
inheritance and in what was called trefgevery, and others occupying in
families or gwelys, like the free tribesmen, though not acknowledged as
belonging to the tribe. Both these classes of non-tribesmen were
permanently attahced to the land of the chieftain or of some landed
tribesman, and hence, rightly or wrongly, were naturally classed by the
surveyors as nativi or bond tenants, and so regarded until Tudor times.
"Before tracing the after history of the tribesmen and non-tribesmen, there
remains to be noticed the position of the cheiftain and his family and the
territorial arrangements which were connected with the chieftainship.
"Now at the time of the extents and long before, in the time of the Welsh
princes, the country was divided into cymwds, two of these generally making
a cantref.
"In each cymwd or sometimes in each cantref there was a tract of land set
aside for the cheiftain's residence. It formed an estate which the
surveyors very naturally called a manor, and which in many respects
resembled a manor. On this estate was what may be described as the home
farm of the chieftain, called his maerdref, worked by groups of
non-tribesmen or nativi under the management of a land maer or other
officers. The chief also had pasture land allotted to him for his cattle,
and all this he held in severalty."
More later, when time permits. Do remind me. It is a long chapter and I
will probably start paraphrasing. As you can see, it is a book from
England and being in the early 1900s, the language isnt' used the same as
ours.
I've not had time to digest all this, but will pull out info that may be
important, if any of you are interested. I feel that we may run across
some of these terms if we get to see the Rhiwlas papers.
Other topics of the book:
The Picts; Roman; history in sections; religion; education; language & lit;
rual wales in the present day
There are two maps which I will try to get Kinkos to copy. One is a map of
Cantrefs and Cymwds and the other of Roman Britain.
There's a chronological table of English and Welsh Kings and Princes down
to 1066 and the house of Rhodri (about 10 generational chart of mailes, of
course, going from Rhodri Mawr (d. 877) to Iago who d. 1039)
Let me know if there is any interest or not. I don't need to spend the
time typing, if no one is interested.
Best wishes,
Emily
Greetings,
I was asked to comment on prospective members for the list, and this is my
attempt! <G>
The History:
On the RootsWeb site where our list is posted, there is a paragraph which
in part states that the list is ONLY for descendants whose ancestors lived
at the Fron Goch farm, Merionethshire, Wales and that documentation is needed.
This has in the past been ignored and still is by some researchers who
think we are a surname list and will help them find a connection OR by
others who are interested in families in the same area.
Anyone can subscribe and unsubscribe at will, and this does not allow much
control of who joins us.
I do operate a "private" list for another surname. On this list I must sub
members, and I do so after I have discussed their lines and their level of
research interest and ability. That list is ONLY interested in finding
researchers who work in the same areas as the group does and who are
willing to abide by some stipulations. These stipulations include NOT
sharing the data with others outside the list in any form without the
group's permission and to make efforts in using primary documents to
support the dates, places, and relationships. Putting the info on
webpages, in books, booklets, newsletters, etc. is not allowed. These
rules were a group decision at the inception of the list. Members of the
group are very content with their decision and do share freely their data.
It is often a very busy site. ALSO, there are no archives that others may
access.
This surname list (above) was developed when Maiser existed....some of you
may remember that organization. Maiser was spammed about three years ago
and gave up it's support to the genealogy community. RootsWeb agreed to
take all the email lists that Maiser had. Shortly after that RootsWeb had
to update its equipment and began asking for donations. RootsWeb accepted
my other surname list as it was developed....it remains private
today......much to the dismay of people who want to join. (We've gained a
reputation of being "exclusive and not wanting people to join." Not so, we
only want members who will work and produce quality products. Anyway.....
I doubt seriously that RootsWeb will ever allow another private list, so
here we are....a Public one....and anyone CAN join.
I receive an email every time someone joins or unsubs. I write them asking
their connection. Some people have been evasive about answering. Some
have understood after I explained they must have a connection to the farm
and that we aren't actually posting info on lineages and some have unsubbed.
The Question:
I was asked how I wanted to handle letting others know we are here and if
/how they may join. (my paraphrasing)
I still want our members to have a connection to Fron Goch. That is the
purpose. The farm is the core of this list. At least that was how I
conceived it originally. My purpose was to locate descendants in order to
learn and celebrate our ancestral home. I was so excited when I found it
still existed that I wanted all the descendants to know. I had hoped to
return with others....and that appears to be happening thanks to all of you!
I suggest that as we find people who positively connect to us for certain,
you just need to let them know how to sub. Hopefully, they will be people
who will post and not be lurkers. If you are uncertain, email them a few
times, get to know them and their lineage. Then if you believe they
connect, have them sub....but tell them to post their lineage. (I have
asked everyone to do that, although some have not.)
IF you think they might, but aren't sure, ask one/all of us to check their
lineage. For example, I have a person who relates to Griffith and a
Cadwallar name in the Philadelphia, PA area. As soon as I get a tad more,
I want Priscilla to look at it. I've not mentioned the list to them as
yet. IF that person discovers the list before I find out they are
connected, I will let them know that we have to find out HOW they are
connected first. I am willing to do that on lines that appear to have
possibility. (If someone says I have EVANS in 1800s or even late 1700s,
etc.....forget it! That name changed too many times before it gets back to
1600s probably. I tell them to get the line back to the early 1700s and
we'll talk.)
IF you are not sure they connect; that is, they do not supply you with
enough information to lead you to believe their connection is accurate,
please send them to me (or someone else on the list you KNOW may have that
line or surname). This can be done many ways. Tell them I have files on
several descendants who lived at the FARM Fron Goch and I can put them in
contact with others on their lines, perhaps. STRESS that they must have a
connection to the farm and some source showing that. (Many of us know the
various books that mention our lines and the farm...if they can prove
connection to those, that's fine.)
What I DO NOT want to see on this list, is a group of people who are just
sitting around waiting for the rest of us to figure out their genealogy for
them. I do not mind steering people in a direction and giving advice (if I
know enough on the subject.) I do believe in helping the newcomer, BUT not
the lazy one. I've a very large soap regarding the NET and the type of
genealogists it appears to be producing. Trust me, you don't want to open
that box. <VBG>
In anything you do, let's remember our goals:
To learn more about the farm, it's dwellers, and their culture
To fill in the gaps we have on our lines
To verify our lineage
Can anyone add more? This topic is open for discussion. Your opinons are
welcomed.
ALSO, you may wish to know that currently we are being archived. I can
stop that, if the GROUP wishes. (Let me explain what "I" consider "The
GROUP" --Those people who post regularly and are active on this list.
Those from whom we never or seldom hear, I don't think have a voice in
major decisions. If this bothers any of you, get interested in posting and
helping.) I don't believe in democracy except among the deserving workers!
<VBG>....I'm sure you know how much of that is teasing and what I mean
seriously.)
BTW, before I forget. Beth, while I'm out of the country this summer, I
would like for you to be in charge. There's nothing to it for the time
I'll be gone. I know you can handle it....if you will be in town during
those few weeks, that is.
THANKS! <G>
Best wishes,
Emily
Thanks Beth for posting those books.
You, Priscilla and I recevied the same message. It appears we were on the
waiting list for Founders of PA. I just ordered several books --Founders,
Bishop's Transcripts, Quaker Arrivals (I've other lines that came, as well)
and Key to Ancient Parish Registers. No doubt they will be helpful sooner
or later.
Roland! Great you have your ticket. I'll firm up my return date this
week. I'm sure it will be the 6th or 7th. Sorry for the delay Priscilla.
We still haven't heard from Jim.
Gary? How are your tickets coming??
Off to school.....
Emily
Here are 2 other books on the Genealogical Publishing Co. list which I'm not familiar with but might be of interest. Maybe they could be viewed via a library...
"Key to the Ancient Parish Registers of England and Wales" by Arthur M. Burke
163 pp., Illus. (1908), 2000. ISBN 0806304456. Item #CF-800 Paper. $18.00.
Burke's guide to the ancient parish registers of England and Wales lists in alphabetical sequence all the parishes for which registers existed prior to 1813. The bulk of the book, an annotated index, gives the names of the counties in which the parishes are located and the dates of the earliest entry in each register, as well as notes on the existence of published parish registers down to 1908. The volume commences with a succinct chronology of the history and statutes relating to parish registers.
"Bishops' Transcripts and Marriage Licenses, Bonds and Allegations, A Guide to Their Location and Indexes". 4th Edition by Jeremy Gibson 56 pp., 1997. ISBN 0806315695.
Item #GPC-2176 Paper. $7.50.
This is a guide to the location of Bishops' Transcripts and of the records connected with the issuance of marriage licenses in England, Wales, and Ireland, such as Bonds and Allegations. Also included are abstracts, calendars, and indexes to marriage licenses, published or not, and when these are lacking there is an indication of the arrangement of the surviving documents. English marriage records were maintained in a wide variety of ecclesiastical courts. Anyone searching for marriage records prior to 1837, when civil registration was introduced, will find this simplified guide to be of inestimable value. This new edition includes maps of ecclesiastical jurisdictions.
Dear Cousins,
In case anyone has been looking for a copy, I received notice that Genealogical Publishing has just reprinted "Welsh Founders of Pennsylvania" by Thomas A. Glenn. It's their typical high price ($35), and paper binding. www.GenealogyBookShop.com
I know it's almost pure luck or good karma if you find a copy, so I thought I'd pass it on.
Beth.