Would it be possible to negotiate write/edit access to their database?
There maybe people who would like to help out transcribing or correcting
transcription errors. As you mentioned place-names are a huge problem
in this area and these often need local knowledge to decode/make sense
of. I for one am very interested in the spellings and variations of old
townland/placenames names and like being able to match them up with
modern day names.
On 2017-08-18 13:41, John Gardiner wrote:
Thanks Clive, I pretty much knew that from all the schooling we had
from David Johnston when he was re-jigging the Fermanagh Gold site.
However being reminded of it does no harm, and for anyone new to the
board... It shows how much we value the level of accuracy that
contributors put in to the work they publish on the site's IGP & FG.
I am exchanging emails with Christina, for information on this matter.
To allow http://freegeneology.org.uk/
to re-transcribe our work into a
format that works with their site (basically creating a new database
using IGP data. Or as Clive identifies it “derivative work”. So the
choice seems to be down to the contributors of the donated files, on
whether we allow it to happen.
More thoughts please..... as part of this group you are the heart of
IGP & FG
----- Original Message ----- From: <gold(a)fermanaghroots.com>
To: "John Gardiner" <johng.home(a)blueyonder.co.uk>;
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: FERMANAGH-GOLD FreeReg submission to use IGP
> Hi folks,
> I would also like to point out that the act of transcribing a source
> does not automatically give you copyright over that source.
> If you transcribe directly from the actual records, provided you have
> permission to do so by the record holder then that would be okay. But
> if you use someone else's work (i.e. photographs, scans, articles,
> books etc) then your work is a “derivative work” and could land you in
> some hot water if you publish without permission. (See list archive
> regarding copyright infringement of Clogher Historical Society works)
> Not providing the source rings serious alarm bells, and "smells a bit
> fishy" to me. Providing incorrect or incomplete information has been a
> huge frustration for me over the years, especially on paid for sites
> who also refuse to fix incorrect information. I would urge the
> copyright holders to think very seriously about giving permission to
> use your work and what these people will do with your work in the
> Just my two cents,
> On 2017-08-18 08:53, John Gardiner wrote:
>> Hi All, further to the information from Chris.
>> I have already been contacted by Mr Eric Booker
>> Here is the thread of our emails so far:
>> My thoughts are at the bottom of this post.
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Booker
>> To: John Gardiner
>> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 11:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: Fermanagh church records transcriptions
>> Hi, John
>> As quick response to the first part of your email:-
>> Thank you for your kind support - despite the difficulties, I am sure
>> that we can work out a solution between ourselves.
>> Before I contacted yourself, I first contacted the gip site (
>> Christina Hunt) who advised me that I only needed your consent as the
>> Copyright owner, - the IGP has no part in it. OR else you can email
>> the files instead then that leaves the IGP out of the loop? I can
>> you her email if you need to see first hand?
>> And the point about irish place naming has caused me mnay problems
>> already, as we have set our stall out to use Place names for the rest
>> of the UK.
>> I suggest I put a small part of one of your files onto out test site
>> where itss not searchable by the general public - and you can do a
>> trial searches and see where you get to. WE could then consider what
>> if anything - we need to review or revise.
>> AS an aside, I have just got the agreement from Vynette Sage to use
>> her transcriptions and I am working on that now.
>> I will respond to the second part of your mail at length, tomorrow if
>> I may.
>> Eric Booker
>> On 17 Aug 2017, at 20:43, John Gardiner <johng.home(a)blueyonder.co.uk>
>> Hi Eric,
>> I know of the FreeReg UK work and I fully support your efforts.
>> Not sure how your searches would work, not identifying the Place or
>> Church as these can be a vital clue to identify the correct person
>> being searched for. As can the Religion.
>> I will contact IGP and see what their position is. What I do know
>> from experience is that finding Irish records has been a huge uphill
>> struggle due to the Dublin Courts fire and the loss of huge amounts
>> Church records.
>> Just putting names into a search engine often gives many results,
>> not being able to see the full document transcription will hinder
>> rather than help. Often being able to see other reconisable names &
>> places on the transcription document gives the answer.
>> Understanding the regional County, Diocese. PLU, Civil Parish,
>> Religious Parish, Barony, Manor, Townland and Registration Boundries
>> is a great help. The Registration boundries often cover more than one
>> County, Parish or Registration area so it's quite a mess. I do know
>> that you have added similar information to the FreeBMD site by
>> placenames within the set boundries attached to the record viewed.
>> I do get it that you want to add Irish to the
Group, but in my honest opinion, the
>> presentation format of IGP and Fermanagh Gold work the best. I should
>> also point out there is a support Group page that members of both
>> groups share their knowledge. IGP & Fermanagh Gold work in my
>> because it is not just a search engine facility, it is a small
>> knowledge sharing community.
>> IGP has grown from nothing, where very little Irish BMD information
>> was available, unless you travelled to repository's like the National
>> Library of Ireland or the Public Record office of Northern Ireland,
>> round the individual Church's in your area fo search.
>> Also the recently https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
>> eventualy have most of the records from 1864 (including scans),
>> much covers the later period of time.
>> I would add that after using your site the level of transcription is
>> very good. After using Ancestry records for the old Parish registers
>> and finding their transcriptions (especially the Secretary Hand
>> written ones) so poor. I wonder if you would think about adding the
>> Old Parish Records for England and Wales to your site. Scotlands
>> People seems to have the scottish ones sewn up.
>> In Conclusion: After all the work our Community has given freely, to
>> help others, I'm afraid I must pin my loyalty to IGP and I gave them
>> the full gardianship and management of my work, so you will need to
>> speak to IGP.
>> John Gardiner
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Booker"
>> To: <johng.home(a)blueyonder.co.uk>
>> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 7:06 PM
>> Subject: re: Fermanagh church records transcriptions
>> Hello, Mr Gardiner.
>> May I first introduce myself: Eric Booker, Data Manager for FreeReg
>> I have come across your extensive collection of Church Record
>> transcription files, contributed to the Fermanagh website, and
>> wondered if I could interest you in letting me add these
>> Transcriptions to our site: FreeReg.org.uk?
>> We have over 39 million records to date and receive some 13,000
>> searches a day at present so your data would add to our appeal and
>> your efforts appreciated by a wider audience.
>> Up to now, we have covered the 3 regions: England, Wales and
>> Scotland. But are expanding right now to include the Counties of
>> Northern Ireland. I would do all the necessary adapting of your
>> Transcriptions into our format so they fit into our database and
>> search engine, so there would be nothing for you to do (except give
>> your consent of course).
>> Our database works as a Free Search engine, on a database of Parish
>> Register Transcriptions, returning single records. We do not present
>> whole files of places, nor of Churches so as to minimise misuse. But
>> more important, we will not sell files onward if you dont want us to.
>> I do hope that you are content with my request, and look forward to
>> making positive progress to get your data viewed far and wide. If you
>> need further information, please just ask.
>> Eric Booker
>> for FreeReg
>> I have not yet decided what to respond. But I think this may be the
>> thin end of the wedge that has all our hard work moved to another
>> site. That may in the future, become just another site linked to the
>> Pay Sites.
>> What IGP and Fermanagh Gold have achived is special, with an awful
>> lot of input and work over the years. Just to be farmed out to a
>> Search engine facility, good though it may be for UK only files.
>> But Irish research in my mind is, due to the various dificulties, a
>> whole different ball game compared to the rest of UK.
>> A single line search engine displaying information out of context,
>> without the ability to view the whole document content, is a waste of
>> time. Even the Pay sites know this, and display scans of the availabe
>> document scans where available.
>> I suspect FreeReg and others of the same group would have to charge
>> if they had the huge storage and bandwidth issues associated with
>> large file scan attachements.
>> They at least would be worried, as I am now that someone would just
>> download and re-transcribe their work. I am at a loss for a response
>> and will wait for some Community feedback.
>> Sorry it's a long post, but I dont want to decide without some
>> Thanks All
>> John Gardiner
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> FERMANAGH-GOLD-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe'
>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> -- Clive Johnston