I would also like to point out that the act of transcribing a source
does not automatically give you copyright over that source.
If you transcribe directly from the actual records, provided you have
permission to do so by the record holder then that would be okay. But if
you use someone else's work (i.e. photographs, scans, articles, books
etc) then your work is a “derivative work” and could land you in some
hot water if you publish without permission. (See list archive
regarding copyright infringement of Clogher Historical Society works)
Not providing the source rings serious alarm bells, and "smells a bit
fishy" to me. Providing incorrect or incomplete information has been a
huge frustration for me over the years, especially on paid for sites who
also refuse to fix incorrect information. I would urge the copyright
holders to think very seriously about giving permission to use your work
and what these people will do with your work in the future.
Just my two cents,
On 2017-08-18 08:53, John Gardiner wrote:
Hi All, further to the information from Chris.
I have already been contacted by Mr Eric Booker
Here is the thread of our emails so far:
My thoughts are at the bottom of this post.
----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Booker
To: John Gardiner
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: Fermanagh church records transcriptions
As quick response to the first part of your email:-
Thank you for your kind support - despite the difficulties, I am sure
that we can work out a solution between ourselves.
Before I contacted yourself, I first contacted the gip site (
Christina Hunt) who advised me that I only needed your consent as the
Copyright owner, - the IGP has no part in it. OR else you can email me
the files instead then that leaves the IGP out of the loop? I can copy
you her email if you need to see first hand?
And the point about irish place naming has caused me mnay problems
already, as we have set our stall out to use Place names for the rest
of the UK.
I suggest I put a small part of one of your files onto out test site -
where itss not searchable by the general public - and you can do a few
trial searches and see where you get to. WE could then consider what -
if anything - we need to review or revise.
AS an aside, I have just got the agreement from Vynette Sage to use
her transcriptions and I am working on that now.
I will respond to the second part of your mail at length, tomorrow if I
On 17 Aug 2017, at 20:43, John Gardiner <johng.home(a)blueyonder.co.uk>
I know of the FreeReg UK work and I fully support your efforts.
Not sure how your searches would work, not identifying the Place or
Church as these can be a vital clue to identify the correct person
being searched for. As can the Religion.
I will contact IGP and see what their position is. What I do know
from experience is that finding Irish records has been a huge uphill
struggle due to the Dublin Courts fire and the loss of huge amounts of
Just putting names into a search engine often gives many results, and
not being able to see the full document transcription will hinder
rather than help. Often being able to see other reconisable names &
places on the transcription document gives the answer.
Understanding the regional County, Diocese. PLU, Civil Parish,
Religious Parish, Barony, Manor, Townland and Registration Boundries
is a great help. The Registration boundries often cover more than one
County, Parish or Registration area so it's quite a mess. I do know
that you have added similar information to the FreeBMD site by listing
placenames within the set boundries attached to the record viewed.
I do get it that you want to add Irish to the
Group, but in my honest opinion, the
presentation format of IGP and Fermanagh Gold work the best. I should
also point out there is a support Group page that members of both
groups share their knowledge. IGP & Fermanagh Gold work in my opinion,
because it is not just a search engine facility, it is a small
knowledge sharing community.
IGP has grown from nothing, where very little Irish BMD information
was available, unless you travelled to repository's like the National
Library of Ireland or the Public Record office of Northern Ireland, or
round the individual Church's in your area fo search.
Also the recently https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
Website that will
eventualy have most of the records from 1864 (including scans), pretty
much covers the later period of time.
I would add that after using your site the level of transcription is
very good. After using Ancestry records for the old Parish registers
and finding their transcriptions (especially the Secretary Hand
written ones) so poor. I wonder if you would think about adding the
Old Parish Records for England and Wales to your site. Scotlands
People seems to have the scottish ones sewn up.
In Conclusion: After all the work our Community has given freely, to
help others, I'm afraid I must pin my loyalty to IGP and I gave them
the full gardianship and management of my work, so you will need to
speak to IGP.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Booker"
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 7:06 PM
Subject: re: Fermanagh church records transcriptions
Hello, Mr Gardiner.
May I first introduce myself: Eric Booker, Data Manager for FreeReg
I have come across your extensive collection of Church Record
transcription files, contributed to the Fermanagh website, and
wondered if I could interest you in letting me add these
Transcriptions to our site: FreeReg.org.uk?
We have over 39 million records to date and receive some 13,000
searches a day at present so your data would add to our appeal and get
your efforts appreciated by a wider audience.
Up to now, we have covered the 3 regions: England, Wales and
Scotland. But are expanding right now to include the Counties of
Northern Ireland. I would do all the necessary adapting of your
Transcriptions into our format so they fit into our database and
search engine, so there would be nothing for you to do (except give me
your consent of course).
Our database works as a Free Search engine, on a database of Parish
Register Transcriptions, returning single records. We do not present
whole files of places, nor of Churches so as to minimise misuse. But
more important, we will not sell files onward if you dont want us to.
I do hope that you are content with my request, and look forward to
making positive progress to get your data viewed far and wide. If you
need further information, please just ask.
I have not yet decided what to respond. But I think this may be the
thin end of the wedge that has all our hard work moved to another
site. That may in the future, become just another site linked to the
What IGP and Fermanagh Gold have achived is special, with an awful
lot of input and work over the years. Just to be farmed out to a
Search engine facility, good though it may be for UK only files.
But Irish research in my mind is, due to the various dificulties, a
whole different ball game compared to the rest of UK.
A single line search engine displaying information out of context,
without the ability to view the whole document content, is a waste of
time. Even the Pay sites know this, and display scans of the availabe
document scans where available.
I suspect FreeReg and others of the same group would have to charge
if they had the huge storage and bandwidth issues associated with
large file scan attachements.
They at least would be worried, as I am now that someone would just
download and re-transcribe their work. I am at a loss for a response
and will wait for some Community feedback.
Sorry it's a long post, but I dont want to decide without some
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