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Surnames: Colebourn, Murray, Williams, Cole, Cain, Martin
Classification: Query
Message Board URL:
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/mbexec/msg/5538/nQJ.2ACEB/21.1
Message Board Post:
1901: the family are in the census at Brassey St, Toxteth Park as Murray. James Murray, 32, Dock Labourer, Catherine Murray, wife, 27. Children Margaret, Catherine, Walter, Ernest & Edith. All names match the only Toxteth-born Colebourns 1891-1900 in FreeBMD. (I found this only because I had first found a probable family match in 1901, and the mother-in-law was Margt Murray, and in desperation I checked for a 7 year old Catherine Murray).
In 1891 Brassey St, Toxteth Park it's:
Margt Murray, 38. R Colebourne, son-in-law, 20, Labourer. C Colebourne wife, 18. M. Colebourne, Dau, 2months.
A search for Catherine Murray in 1881 came up with:
Brassey St, Toxteth Park:
John Murray, 35, Seaman, West Indies
Margaret Murray, 28, wife
Catherine Murray, 7, Dau.
From IGI listings, it's possible that John is the son of Philly Murray (mother), baptised at Christ Church, Barbados... the date is close, but I have no proof as yet. As Margaret is described as married in 1891, I can only assume that John is at sea on the census date.
I've found the black roots within this line of the family, and we also have the confirmation that all the assumed siblings of Catherine Colebourn are those listed in BMD.
As already established, Margaret married Samuel Cole. Catherine married Henry Williams.
additionally: Walter disappears after 1901, no marriage found and no family knowledge of him... I suspect he may have been killed in WW1, as he would be 19 at the outbreak of war.
Ernest married Cecelia Cain, and apparently loses touch with the rest of the family (we believe some disagreement over their racial background).
Edith married William Martin.
The big question is why the family made a point of being so elusive on census returns. The children are all born as Colebourns, and marry as such, but are named Murray in the 1901 census. OIn addition to this, Robert, Catherine & Margaret's forenames are omitted in 1891. I've pondered this question a great deal and the onlyn logical explanation is that Robert/the family were living outside the law in some way, or wanted to be untraceable by the authorities. Perhaps it's as simple as them not being married and believing that this would somehow be made public by them giving their actual full names. I still can't be sure whether James Murray & Robert Colebourn are one & the same man, or whether Catherine had taken up with James between 1900-1901 (though the surname seems highly coincidental if this is the case, as I'm sure she had no Murray cousins in Liverpool, with her father being a West Indian sailor). It seems more likely that, for whatever reason, they chose to use her ma!
iden name rather than the one they were known by.
If anyone has any thoughts, or recognises anyone here... please reply... I'm still stuck on the Colebourn side!
This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list.
Surnames: Colebourn, Cole
Classification: Query
Message Board URL:
http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/nQJ.2ACEB/21
Message Board Post:
I'm getting VERY stuck with my partner's family, the Colebourns.
Initially we were told that Catherine's father was Joseph, nicknamed Joey Cuff/Cuffy, but recent consultation of the original marriage register reveals that her father was Robert Colebourn. Catherine married Henry Williams, of Sierra Leone, in 1915... 3 weeks after her sister's marriage to Samuel Cole. Their father was Robert Colebourn, Labourer.
Both of these spouses were black men, and it is believed that the girls also had African/Caribbean ancestry. We also think that another sister may have married a man of afro/caribbean origin (possibly another of the Cole family).
Catherine married from 20 Circus St, Margaret's address was just listed as Circus St. both men were also listed in the same street (Henry at number 24, no number for Samuel). Margaret was 20, Catherine 22.
Although there is a Catherine Colebourn born in Toxteth in 1894, I'm not sure it is the same woman (there is another Catherine Colebourn married a year earlier in Toxteth, though I believe it's possible this is her mother). There is no Margaret Colebourn in FreeBMD at present for 1895.
I am loathed to pay for the certificate for Catherine as yet, until I have stronger evidence that this is her. On her death, the record office found it difficult to locate her certificate based on the information given, and I suspect that they were finally given the closest match, and actually the wrong one (1894?)... this may be where the belief that her father's name was Joseph came in, if they had another Catherine's birth certificate.
I believe it possible that the children were not born as Colebourns, and perhaps adopted the name of a stepfather (a Catherine Lyons married a Robert Henry Colebourn in jun-sep 1901). But I can find no matching children of Lyons, either, in 1901.
Was Catherine Lyons their unmarried mother, and gave the children their natural father's name? which was changed when she married Colebourn? I have found a Catherine Lyons, Fish Hawker, in Walton Prison in 1901... could this be her and her children living with other families?
If any of these are the case, I have no idea of how to identify them in the 1901 census, except if someone has some first hand knowledge of the family's history.
Does anyone know of any Colebourn/Cole links? or anyone think they knew Catherine Colebourn/Williams or Margaret Colebourn/Cole?