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----Original Message Follows----
From: "ljcrain1" <ljcrain1(a)asapchoice.com>
Reply-To: GENEALOGY-DNA-L(a)rootsweb.com
To: GENEALOGY-DNA-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [DNA] Churches OK Jamestown Remains DNA Testing
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:30:53 -0600
Churches OK Jamestown Remains DNA Testing
Thu Feb 24, 6:25 PM ET Science - AP
By SUE LINDSEY, Associated Press Writer
NORFOLK, Va. - A historical society hoping to prove that an unearthed
skeleton is that of a Jamestown founder has won permission from two English
churches to dig up graves believed to belong to the pioneer's relatives.
Archaeologists must conduct more tests to determine whether the graves
indeed contain remains but, if so, DNA testing could begin this spring, the
nonprofit Association for the Preservation of Virginia Antiquities said
Thursday.
Cont. here:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1894&e=2&u=/ap/20050224/a...
Hello,
I was wondering if anyone has information on the following Coats family from
Havana, Illinois.
Harvey Coat(s)
b. 1862 Havana, Mason Co., Illinois
d. July 22, 1940 Peoria, Peoria Co., Illinois
Married: Oct. 7, 1886 Mason Co., Illinois
Fannie Lindberg
b. abt. 1886 Havana, Mason Co., Illinois
d. Dec. 4, 1941 Peoria, Peoria Co., Illinois
Children:
Bessie Coat(s)
Ethel Coat(s)
Lyman Coat(s)
Fannie's parents:
Peter E. Lindberg
Harriett Ann Hanthorne or Hawthorn
I appreciate any help you might offer.
Sincerely, Kathleen Brown
from So. CA
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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Char,
Thank you so much for this wonderful website and the Heritage Quest on-line
website.
I have found so many wonderful Revolutionary war records including what I
believe proves that Austin Murphy or Murray Coates married to Lucinda
Dismukes is not the son of William Coates who married Susannah Dismuke.(She
is a cousin to Susannah how ever)
In William Coates Pension record he states he has a son (Austin) that is
unmarried but, has built a fine house in Virginia and plans to move to
Virginia.
In Susannah Dismuke (widows pension) (m) this same William Coates she states
in 1820 that their son (Austin)and his "family" are living in Virginia.
Austin Murray or Murphy Coates was not married to Lucinda Dismukes until
1824 in Davidson Tennessee.They move to Mississippi.
This William and Susannah Dismuke Coates did move from Sportslvania (Maybe
mispelled)Virginia to Davidson Tennessee.
I believe they are related but, Austin M. is not their son Austin.
The Dismuke family also, say that William had a daughter named Sallie that
married a Dismuke.
Sallie is not named in either pension record as a daughter.They both say
they have "A" son named Austin.
Please, I would love some input if someone thinks I am missing something or
has proof that I am wrong in my observation. I don't mind being told I am
wrong if there is proof.
Bye the way there were quite a few Dismuke's that went to Mississippi and
Louisiana. Some are buried in the same grave yards with my Coates. This is
one reason I am so interested in this group.
One of my Austin Marion Coates wife's (Margaret Coon) uncle also, moved to
Davidson County, Tennessee in the early 1800's.
I just find all this very interesting to say the least.
Robbie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlotte Coats" <coats(a)hotmail.com>
To: <coates-l(a)rootsweb.com>; <Coates_Coate_Coats(a)yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:02 PM
Subject: [Coates_Coate_Coats] FW: Missouri State Archives
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:56:27 -0800 (PST)
>
> Jefferson City -- Secretary of State Robin Carnahan today announced the
> Missouri State Archives' selection as one of the nation's top
> twenty-five best family history websites by the readers of Family Tree
> Magazine.
> Only one other state archives made the list of popular genealogy sites.
>
> Carnahan said: "I am pleased that the Archives is considered one of the
> best websites. It is especially meaningful because the sites were
> selected by the people who use them the most - family historians. At the
> Archives, we are committed to offering access to Missouri history in
> innovative ways. Our enthusiasm and ability to connect the public to
> historical and genealogical information has been recognized and we feel
> privileged to be included in the magazine's list."
>
> The Missouri State Archives is the officially designated repository for
> all state records of permanent and historical value. A wealth of
> information is available, with more than 150 million pages of paper,
60,000
> reels of microfilm, and many other resources. A variety of online
> databases and projects provide access to birth and death records, county
> coroner's inquests, Missouri Supreme Court historical cases, and St.
> Louis Probate Court records. The Archives also recently updated its
> comprehensive Soldiers Database, which includes personnel from the War of
> 1812 through World War I. Other online projects of interest include the
> Civil War Provost Marshal Index Database and the St. Louis Circuit Court
> Historical Records Project. To access these resources, log on to the
> Secretary of State's website at http://www.sos.mo.gov and click on
> "State Archives."
>
>
>
> Laura Wilson
> Missouri State Archives Staff Liaison to Friends of the Missouri State
> Archives
> (573) 526-5326
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
> Low Cost Web Hosting:
> http://www.duoservers.com/?r=timecapsule
>
> Make a Donation for Coats DNA Kits:
> http://www.familytreedna.com/public/coats/
>
> Coates, Coate, Coats Digital Archive at:
> http://www.coatsarchive.us
>
> Ancestrees database by Linda Coate:
> http://www.ancestrees.com/
>
> Privacy Statement: as moderator of this group I do NOT save, download or
otherwise reproduce or sell any information submitted to this list by
members - see Yahoo's Privacy Statement for what they do
>
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>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Coates_Coate_Coats-unsubscribe(a)yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
Good catch Charlotte - that is why I put the disclaimer on the will
abstracts since the will abstracts at Ancestry.com have messed up in the
past by including a Benjamin Coates in a will when he was not in the
original (it was suggested they may have misread bequeath). If the will
is Samuel Preston Jr. then I think when he refers to Sisters in Law Mary
& Margaret Coates and Ruth Webb it may actually read (or intend) Mary
Langdale/Coates as sister in law and her daughter Margaret Coates who
was mentioned in the will of Samuel Coates as receiving items from
grandparents Samuel & Margaret Preston.
An online search of various family trees which include Samuel Preston do
not seem to list a Samuel Preston Jr. but did include (again I can't
guarantee the accuracy of the data but hope that the Preston researchers
did their homework)....
from "Colonial and Revolutionary Families of Pennsylvania, Volumes I-III
Carpenter and Preston Family-- Samuel Preston succeeded Samuel Carpenter
as Provincial Treasurer in 1714, and held that office until his death,
September 10, 1743."
and
"The Provincial Councilors of Pennsylvania 1733-1776 -- Preston became
Provincial Treasurer in 1714 , and held the office until his death,
almost thirty year s. He was also one of the Trustees under William Penn
's will. He died September 10, 1743 . He m., 1st, at the house of
Francis Cornwall in Sussex , July 6, 1688 Rachel , dau. of Thomas Lloyd
, President of the Council. He m., 2nd, Margaret , wi dow of Josiah
Langdale . She was a Quaker preacher from Yorkshire, England , and came
to Pennsylvania on a religious mission in 1723 , her first husband dying
on the voyage. She was ancestress of Josiah Langdale Coates , and d. 6,
23, 1742 , in t he 58th year of her age"
If the information offered on the family trees is correct then Margaret
Burton/Langdale/Preston died a year before her husband Samuel Preston so
she would not have been listed on the 1743 will (if it is Samuel Sr's will).
But without reading a copy of the actual document is all boils down to
guess work. If someone is interested they could try tracing the other
people listed in the 1743 will to see how they interrelate to the
Preston family which should help clear up which Samuel it was.
Charlotte Coats wrote:
> This Samuel Preston seems to be a brother in law to Mary and Margaret
> Coates?? and doesn't name his wife??
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: Susan McIntyre <sbmc2(a)chartermi.net>
> To: COATES-L(a)rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: [COATES-L] Sam Coats - 1748 - PA
> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:30:17 -0500
>
> I have researched the Coates family in PA and although this is not my
> group the point that you made about Samuel's will was intriguing so I
> took a few minutes to look into it....
>
> on Ancestry.com....
> in Encyclopedia of American Quaker Genealogy Vol. 2
> 1724, 5, 9 Langdale, Margaret, wd. Phila., PA., m. Samuel Preston,
> Phila., PA., MH
> 1734, 4, 13. Langdale, Mary, Phila., Pa., m. Samuel Coates, Phila.,
> Pa., at Phila. Mtg.
> Coates, Samuel (s Thomas & Beulah, b. 6-7-1711) m. Mary Langdale (dt.
> Josiah & Margaret, b. 3-26-1713)
>
> can't guarantee accuracy of these will abstracts -
> Samuel Preston. City of Philadelphia. September 5, 1743. September 22,
> 1743. G.68. Brother: Thomas Berry. Children: Carpenter, Margaret
> Moore. Grandchildren: Mordecai Moore, Preston Carpenter, Margaret
> Moore. Son-in-law: Samuel Preston Moore. John Langdale.
> Sisters-in-law: Mary and Margaret Coates, Ruth Webb, widow of Richard
> Rhoades. Samuel Pemberton and William Orr. Exec: Saml. Preston Moore
> and Preston Carpenter. Trustees: Israel Pemberton, John Kinsey and
> Cadwalader Fooks.
>
> Langdale, Josiah. Late of Bridlington Key, Yorkshire. 2/14/1723.
> Joseph Bond, Hannah Carpenter relict of Samuel Carpenter, deceased,
> mentioned. Will signed on board the ship London Hope laying at anchor
> in the Downes near Deale in Great Britain, where he died. Proved at
> Philadelphia. Executrix: Wife Margaret, daughter of William and Isabel
> Burton, yeoman, late of Yorkshire, deceased. John Annis, Sr. Commander
> of the Ship London Hope.
>
>
> So it would appear that Mary Langdale w/o Samuel Coates is the
> daughter of Josiah & Margaret (nee Burton) Langdale. Josiah Langdale
> died in 1723 and in 1724 his widow Margaret remarried to Samuel Preston.
>
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:56:27 -0800 (PST)
Jefferson City -- Secretary of State Robin Carnahan today announced the
Missouri State Archives' selection as one of the nation's top
twenty-five best family history websites by the readers of Family Tree
Magazine.
Only one other state archives made the list of popular genealogy sites.
Carnahan said: "I am pleased that the Archives is considered one of the
best websites. It is especially meaningful because the sites were
selected by the people who use them the most - family historians. At the
Archives, we are committed to offering access to Missouri history in
innovative ways. Our enthusiasm and ability to connect the public to
historical and genealogical information has been recognized and we feel
privileged to be included in the magazine's list."
The Missouri State Archives is the officially designated repository for
all state records of permanent and historical value. A wealth of
information is available, with more than 150 million pages of paper, 60,000
reels of microfilm, and many other resources. A variety of online
databases and projects provide access to birth and death records, county
coroner's inquests, Missouri Supreme Court historical cases, and St.
Louis Probate Court records. The Archives also recently updated its
comprehensive Soldiers Database, which includes personnel from the War of
1812 through World War I. Other online projects of interest include the
Civil War Provost Marshal Index Database and the St. Louis Circuit Court
Historical Records Project. To access these resources, log on to the
Secretary of State's website at http://www.sos.mo.gov and click on
"State Archives."
Laura Wilson
Missouri State Archives Staff Liaison to Friends of the Missouri State
Archives
(573) 526-5326
I have researched the Coates family in PA and although this is not my
group the point that you made about Samuel's will was intriguing so I
took a few minutes to look into it....
on Ancestry.com....
in Encyclopedia of American Quaker Genealogy Vol. 2
1724, 5, 9 Langdale, Margaret, wd. Phila., PA., m. Samuel Preston,
Phila., PA., MH
1734, 4, 13. Langdale, Mary, Phila., Pa., m. Samuel Coates, Phila., Pa.,
at Phila. Mtg.
Coates, Samuel (s Thomas & Beulah, b. 6-7-1711) m. Mary Langdale (dt.
Josiah & Margaret, b. 3-26-1713)
can't guarantee accuracy of these will abstracts -
Samuel Preston. City of Philadelphia. September 5, 1743. September 22,
1743. G.68. Brother: Thomas Berry. Children: Carpenter, Margaret Moore.
Grandchildren: Mordecai Moore, Preston Carpenter, Margaret Moore.
Son-in-law: Samuel Preston Moore. John Langdale. Sisters-in-law: Mary
and Margaret Coates, Ruth Webb, widow of Richard Rhoades. Samuel
Pemberton and William Orr. Exec: Saml. Preston Moore and Preston
Carpenter. Trustees: Israel Pemberton, John Kinsey and Cadwalader Fooks.
Langdale, Josiah. Late of Bridlington Key, Yorkshire. 2/14/1723. Joseph
Bond, Hannah Carpenter relict of Samuel Carpenter, deceased, mentioned.
Will signed on board the ship London Hope laying at anchor in the Downes
near Deale in Great Britain, where he died. Proved at Philadelphia.
Executrix: Wife Margaret, daughter of William and Isabel Burton, yeoman,
late of Yorkshire, deceased. John Annis, Sr. Commander of the Ship
London Hope.
So it would appear that Mary Langdale w/o Samuel Coates is the daughter
of Josiah & Margaret (nee Burton) Langdale. Josiah Langdale died in
1723 and in 1724 his widow Margaret remarried to Samuel Preston.
Charlotte Coats wrote:
I have added the documents for PA and most of the docs for NJ
now....will be working on the anaylsis pages next...
But interesting is the Samuel Coats of Philly who died in 1748:
http://www.coatsarchive.us/pennsylvdocs.html
Linda, is he the one you have listed as married to Mary Langsdale...it
would appear that his will names his daughter Margaret's grandparents as
Margaret and Samuel Preston...
Char
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Sandy" <srschmidt(a)stx.rr.com>
To: "Charlotte Coats" <coats(a)hotmail.com>
Subject: Coates
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:42:18 -0600
Hi,
I came across your Coates page while searching for my Coates relatives. I
do not know much at all and am running into brick walls. I was told by a
2nd cousin that the Coates' were from Pennsylvania. I have no living
relatives left to ask questions. I know that my grandfather, my mother's
dad, who was John Wesley Coates, came from Nacogdoches County, Texas. His
father was Charles Conner Coates. I believe he could have been from
Alabama. I cannot find anything on him, except I know he died in Texas,
possibly Knox County. If I could just make this connection, I believe I
could proceed.
Do you happen to have anything that might be helpful?
Thank you for your time.
Sandra Schmidt
srschmidt(a)stx.rr.com
Was his wife Mary's maiden name Preston rather than Langsdale?
It appears from the will, that his father in law was Samuel Preston whose
wife was Margaret Preston??
Charlotte
----Original Message Follows----
From: osborn cresson <oscresson(a)juno.com>
To: COATES-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [COATES-L] Re: Sam Coats - 1748 - PA
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 07:27:33 -0500
Yes, you have the will of Samuel Coates (1711-1748; PA Will Book I, p.
14; http://www.coatsarchive.us/pennsylvdocs.html). He was the son of
Thomas Coates and Beulah Jacques, and the son-in-law of Josiah Langdale
and Margaret Burton. Before leaving for America in 1723 to seek
religious liberty, Josiah sensed that he might die and he had a coffin
built. As Mary Coates wrote in Aunt Mary's Patchwork, he became ill and
"died very happily when about three days out, singing a 'melodious song'
unto the Lord just before his death. He was committed to the deep, but
his coffin floated back to England, near to his old home, where his
remains were recognized and he was buried from his own meeting-house."
He lived in Bridlington in Yorkshire and was about 50 years old. His
widow wrote, "This testimony I have to give of him, that he was an
affectionate, loving husband, a tender father, a kind master, a good
neighbor, a faithful friend; full of compassion, ready to forgive
injuries and to reach a helping hand to the afflicted; and he himself was
given up and devoted to what he believed to be his indispensable duty."
(p. 25) A good example for us to follow. Margaret Burton Langdale later
became the second wife of Samuel Preston. Os Cresson
==== COATES Mailing List ====
Find out where your Coate/s family fits. Join the Coats/Coates/Coate DNA
Project, http://www.rootsquest.com/~coatsfar/coatsarchive/dna.htm
----Original Message Follows----
From: "KATE WORRELL" <tworrell(a)verizon.net>
To: <coats(a)hotmail.com>
Subject: Coates Family in PA/NJ
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:30:58 -0500
I came across your website in a search for ancestors. I am descended from a
Thomas L. Coates who was born in 1800 and married Deborah C. Johnston. They
had a son named William, named after his father's brother. And, a daughter
named Laura T. Coates. In William Coates' journal, son of Thomas and
Deborah, he states that his father was from a rich and aristocratic family
in Pennsylvania, but, through reverses in business, became poor. His mother
was of a southern family that came north before the revolution.
William states that he was born on Dec. 5, 1859 in Bristol, Bucks County,
Pennsylvania at the Old Shipyard near Hollow Creek on the north branch of
the Delaware river.
Laura T. Coates was born in 1844 and married William Armour Worrell of
Burlington, New Jersey. Laura and William are my gggrand-parents.
I have not been able to find any information about this line.
I just thought that you might be interested, as you have quite an extensive
list of Coates.
Sincerely,
Tom Worrell
Yes, you have the will of Samuel Coates (1711-1748; PA Will Book I, p.
14; http://www.coatsarchive.us/pennsylvdocs.html). He was the son of
Thomas Coates and Beulah Jacques, and the son-in-law of Josiah Langdale
and Margaret Burton. Before leaving for America in 1723 to seek
religious liberty, Josiah sensed that he might die and he had a coffin
built. As Mary Coates wrote in Aunt Mary's Patchwork, he became ill and
"died very happily when about three days out, singing a 'melodious song'
unto the Lord just before his death. He was committed to the deep, but
his coffin floated back to England, near to his old home, where his
remains were recognized and he was buried from his own meeting-house."
He lived in Bridlington in Yorkshire and was about 50 years old. His
widow wrote, "This testimony I have to give of him, that he was an
affectionate, loving husband, a tender father, a kind master, a good
neighbor, a faithful friend; full of compassion, ready to forgive
injuries and to reach a helping hand to the afflicted; and he himself was
given up and devoted to what he believed to be his indispensable duty."
(p. 25) A good example for us to follow. Margaret Burton Langdale later
became the second wife of Samuel Preston. Os Cresson
I have added the documents for PA and most of the docs for NJ now....will be
working on the anaylsis pages next...
But interesting is the Samuel Coats of Philly who died in 1748:
http://www.coatsarchive.us/pennsylvdocs.html
Linda, is he the one you have listed as married to Mary Langsdale...it would
appear that his will names his daughter Margaret's grandparents as Margaret
and Samuel Preston...
Also interesting is the finding of a James Coats who died in Philly in 1705,
who was suppose to have a brother named Samuel Coats, and there doesn't
appear to be any estate records for a Samuel Coats of that time period??
Char
>I checked this out and was delighted. I am always having to find places in
>my area. The directions are clear and 'READABLE' Woo Hoo! Go
>Google! Thanks Char
Gup
>----Original Message Follows----
>with a new search service Google Maps
>
>http://maps.google.com
>
>the maps are draggable! meaning you don't have to wait for them to regenerate.
>Still in beta, but boy it sure looks good
----Original Message Follows----
with a new search service Google Maps
http://maps.google.com
the maps are draggable! meaning you don't have to wait for them to
regenerate.
Still in beta, but boy it sure looks good
Wonderful. I didn't think we needed a 37 marker test for the close knit
South Carolina Coates related to Marmaduke until I read the article
Charlotte forwarded stating that our R1B type was the most common 12 point
type there was and that the only real way to differentiate that group was
to have a 37 marker test. Looks like that was an understatement. Of the
extended DNA we have from that group so far, Marmaduke only has the exact
same DNA as the William Coate of Ohio and Indiana. The others have
similarities but are probably related a further back in time.
At 01:34 PM 2/8/2005, you wrote:
>We have a new 37 marker test back for the Coats DNA project....this
>completes the test for Marmaduke out of SC...
>
>Char
>
>
>
>==== COATES Mailing List ====
>Find out where your Coate/s family fits. Join the Coats/Coates/Coate DNA
>Project, http://www.rootsquest.com/~coatsfar/coatsarchive/dna.htm
>
LINDA COATE,
Columbus, Ohio
lcoate(a)ancestrees.com
www.ancestrees.com
These discussions are really interesting, note the discussions on public
domain records a repository has...and this might be why they hesitate to
digitize their collections i.e. for genealogy research...
1. These records are an ASSET, used to generate income for the respository
2. We use PUBLIC DOMAN records from them and once they release a copy the
ASSET value of the record is gone because they no longer control the
record...
3. In Peter's article was mention of charges for the information....it
sounds to me, like *what the market will bear* was the charge
threshold....that by the way, can and usually is a pretty high
threshold....I'd say from our petition, they've gone beyond what *the market
will bear*....
I do believe however, some of this *concern* on their part could be
eliminated with web databases and a nominal fee for use, not much different
than going there to look at the records and getting copies I'd say....boy,
they are just slow to embrace technology and web use....also remember, that
at least state and federal Archive and Libraries receive State and Federal
funding, as well as private donations, although that has dropped in
years...but never the less, they do still receive substantial funding from
state and federal sources...they're basic organizer...
Char
**************************
From : George Miles <George.Miles(a)YALE.EDU>
Reply-To : George Miles <George.Miles(a)YALE.EDU>
Sent : Tuesday, February 8, 2005 7:11 AM
To : ARCHIVES(a)LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU
Subject : Re: [ARCHIVES] public domain and charging fees
I've found the discussion about publication fees interesting and have
appreciated Peter Hirtle's contributions - both in his address to SAA and
his recent statements to the list, including his observations about Yale's
statement regarding copyright and special collections. I don't however,
agree with his take on the question about the ability of repositories to
control publication.
Some background information about events that contributed to Yale's
statement may be helpful. In 1999 and 2000, the director of Beinecke
Library, Ralph Franklin, led the library's staff in a full review of our
"permission" policies. Mr. Franklin was particularly concerned about
understanding both our rights and liabilities under the copyright laws as
well as the way our permission policies and fees met or conflicted with our
mission to foster teaching and learning. The University Librarian at the
time, Scott Bennett, was interested in the conversations and joined our
staff to present his own perspectives. I recall that he was particularly
concerned that non-profit institutions recognize that while they faced
significant economic challenges and had to be wise custodians of their
resources, that they also needed to recognize that the government and
society had extended significant privileges to them to assist in those areas
and that we should try to embody the constitutional principle that copyright
was meant to foster creativity and learning rather than to produce income.
During the course of our discussions, which soon extended beyond Beinecke to
involve other members of Yale's Library system, we brought several experts
on intellectual property to campus both to inform us and to brainstorm with
us about copyright law. Ann Okerson, our Associate University Librarian for
Collections, played an important role in arranging those discussions and was
particularly interested in understanding the implications of copyright law
for digital library developments.
I remember drawing several observations from those discussions that seem
directly pertinent to Peter's point about control of publication.
First, the experts observed that they believed that the fundamental
constitutional principle of copyright, and in particular the place of the
public domain, would trump "license" arrangements that attempted to restrict
use of public domain materials. As they put it: Yes, we could refuse to
allow someone to see a copy of something in the public domain; Yes, we could
refuse to make a copy for them; Yes, we could charge them anything we wanted
for making that copy. However, once someone had a copy of something in the
public domain - whether through manual copying in our reading room or by
receiving a photo-facsimile from us, we had no legal standing to prevent
their publishing it as they wished. We could, we supposed, refuse to serve
such people in the future, but we were very, very unlikely - they told us -
to recover any damages if we tried to sue them for "breach of contract."
Second, the experts impressed upon us that if we imposed "use" fees on
non-public domain material, we might be liable for damage to the copyright
holder's interests. That is to say, the law protects the rights of
copyright owners to exploit their material without interference from third
parties. If our "use" charges reduced the ability of owners to interest
third parties in publishing their material or reduced the fees that
publishers were willing to pay them, we were interfering with their rights.
Note that I am NOT saying that we must make copies available for no charge,
nor that we can charge ONLY "costs of reproduction" (whatever that means),
but that fees associated only with "permission to publish" would on their
face seem a potential interference with the rights of the copyright owner.
Any fees need to be applied to the process of providing access -either
through access to the reading room or to copies of original material, not to
how any notes or copies are later used.
In the end, Beinecke dramatically revised its permission policies. We
continue to charge photo-duplication fees but no longer charge publication
fees. We inform users that we provide copies to them under the fair use
provisions of the copyright law and that it is their responsibility to
secure permission from copyright owners if their own uses exceed fair use.
When we are asked to "grant permission to publish" we respond that unless
the Library owns the copyright in the requested material (as we do in a
very, very small number of cases), we have no rights to grant OR to deny
concerning publication of the material. This frustrates some users and
publishers who would like to use us as an assurance that they can publish
material, but in truth, such a "shield" never had any standing in court.
Having said this, I want to say that I agree with Peter about the nature of
copyright in photoduplications and "copy photographs." To my understanding,
there is still a gray area in the matter of photographing works of art,
especially three-dimensional art because the photographer must make a series
of choices about how to approach the subject. This would not seem to be the
case in making a microfilm of a book or diary, or an exact copy-print of an
illustration from a book, etc. Yes, one photographer may be better than
another, but copyright lies in original expression not in skill. In defense
of the Yale statement, I think it is useful to understand that it emerged in
the context of extensive discussions Yale's vibrant museum and art history
community who remain very concerned about the issues associated with use of
art photography.
George Miles
Curator, Yale Collection of Western Americana
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:16:18 -0500
From: Peter Hirtle <pbh6(a)CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Re: public domain and charging fees
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At 11:47 AM 2/7/2005, Kathy Gaynor wrote:
Peter, a request. To further our understanding of this complicated issue,
would you comment on those portions of the Yale statement on copyright
versus use permissions with which you don't agree? Thank you.
Sure. FYI, the document is at
<http://www.library.yale.edu/special_collections/copyright.html>. I have
these concerns:
1. Yale argues that only the copyright owner can grant "permission to
publish," but not the institution that owns the document. This may be
technically correct (I would have to think about that a bit more), but in
practice repositories tend to think of their physical ownership rights as
allowing them also to grant "permission to publish." So I think the
document may be confusing when it says:
If you own a "copy" and the intellectual content has passed into the
public domain, you can charge for providing access to your "copy," but you
cannot charge for permission to publish, nor can you withhold permission
to publish...
I think that you can stipulate as a condition of access the terms under
which a user could "publish" the document. In effect, you can use your
access rights to control publication (though technically the pure
"publication right" may belong only to the copyright owner). Some day a
court may forbid repositories from using their control of access to control
publication, but to date none have.
2. In 2B, the document says "All photographs, even those referred to as
'copy photographs,' are copyrighted." Since the Bridgeman decision, this
is wrong. If you are making a copy photograph of a two-dimensional item,
and your goal is to reproduce as closely as possible the original item,
then the copy photograph does not have enough originality to warrant
copyright protection (no matter how much skill or digital manipulation it
took to make it).
3. In section 4, they got it backwards. If we have copyright relations
with a foreign country, then we don't have to worry about the copyright
laws in that country. The foreign work is protected in the US as if it had
been created in the US.
4. In the "additional information" section, it says "Works of art are
considered to be published when they are publicly displayed." This is
wrong. The copyright law states that "A public performance or display of a
work does not of itself constitute publication" (though if no provision is
made to prevent people from making copies of the work, then publication may
have occurred).
5. In recommending the use of the copyright symbol on the page, the page
could have made it clear that the use is desirable, but not mandatory, for
copyright protection.
As I said in my original message, the thing I like the best about this page
is that it encourages us to think about the differences between the rights
of the copyright owner and the rights of the owner of the physical item. I
applaud Yale for trying to address thoughtfully some tough issues, even if
they got a few things wrong.
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Does anyone have a Coats/Coates/Cotes family in Jefferson Co., TN, around
1880? My husband's grandfather, Samuel Earl Dooley, was born in Jefferson
Co. in January, 1880, to Alice J. Dooley. He took the name of Dooley, but
some years before he died in 1960 in Hamilton Co., TN, he told his family
that his father's name was Coats (have no idea which spelling). Searching
in Ancestry.com I cannot find a Coats by any spelling in Jefferson Co. in
either 1870 or 1880. I have no idea how to go about finding his father
with such meager information.
Barbara Dooley
Hello to all,
I have recently joined this mailing list thinking I might found some additional information about Henrietta.
I have looked a little in the archives of this list but haven't found everything I was thinking that I might.
Henrietta was born about 1762, either in Va. or Ga. Her youngest child made it to the 1880 census and he said Va. but most people say Ga.
I read that there may be a book on this family but don't have that information.
Henrietta married John Bankston probably in Ga. They named a son Henry, one Simeon Coates, one Young, one Lesley, and one John Jacques. There were other children but I have seen where these names appear to be part of a Coates family.
Henrietta is my gggggrandmother.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Pat
http://dspace.library.cornell.edu/bitstream/1813/52/3/Archives+or+assets....
Archives or Assets?
by PETER B. HIRTLE, Cornell University
58th president of the Society of American Archivists
That archival records can have monetary value is not a surprise to any
practicing archivist. We are custodians of records that are of incalculable
value in the study of our history, culture, and valuesand that can also be
sold on eBay or in an auction house for substantial sums. I have heard it
estimated that at my own institution, Cornell University, the library is the
single largest asset that the university owns. Since Cornell has among its
seventy million manuscripts items such as a copy of the Gettysburg Address
in Lincoln's hand and some of James Joyce's manuscripts for Ulysses, it
would be easy to imagine that most of the value in the library resides in
the archival and manuscript collections.
Name Parents or spouse Home in 1880
(City,County,State) Est.
Birth Year Birthplace Relation View Image Save This
Augustus COATS Kinny COATS,
Mary COATS Free Run, Yazoo, MS <1872> Mississippi Son
Dixson Barksdale COATS Kinny COATS,
Mary COATS Free Run, Yazoo, MS <1879> Mississippi Son
Elija COATS Free Run, Yazoo, MS <1861> Mississippi Something other than a direct relationship
Elliott COATS Kinny COATS,
Mary COATS Free Run, Yazoo, MS <1873> Mississippi Son
G. A. COATS Free Run, Yazoo, MS <1868> Mississippi Something other than a direct relationship
Jeff COATS Free Run, Yazoo, MS <1866> Mississippi Something other than a direct relationship
Kinny COATS Mary COATS Free Run, Yazoo, MS <1847> Mississippi Self
Lucy COATS Kinny COATS,
Mary COATS Free Run, Yazoo, MS <1876> Mississippi Daughter
Mary COATS Kinny COATS Free Run, Yazoo, MS <1851> North Carolina Wife
Carrie COATS W. E. COATS Hart Town, Yazoo, MS <1856> Mississippi Wife
Cornelia COATS Louis COATS Hart Town, Yazoo, MS <1862> Alabama Wife
Harriett COATS Hart Town, Yazoo, MS <1830> Mississippi Daughter-in-law
Louis COATS Cornelia COATS Hart Town, Yazoo, MS <1852> Mississippi Self
W. E. COATS Carrie COATS Hart Town, Yazoo, MS <1854> Mississippi Self
W. Ricd. COATS Hart Town, Yazoo, MS <1801> Kentucky Self
Anthony COATS Midway, Yazoo, MS <1874> Mississippi Stepson
Bell COATS Midway, Yazoo, MS <1867> Mississippi Stepdaughter
Darkus COATS Midway, Yazoo, MS <1873> Mississippi Something other than a direct relationship
Dianna COATS Midway, Yazoo, MS <1850> Mississippi Something other than a direct relationship
Elijah COATS Elvire COATS Midway, Yazoo, MS <1822> Mississippi Self