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Hey, Suzy, Thanks for this information. I will share it with our "clan"
tomorrow afternoon when we gather for a shrimp boil. We have had fun being
a part of this "clan" business, but by 2009 I'm afraid we will be too old
to take part in such a gathering, which, by the way, sounds wonderful.
Maybe some of the younger ones can go. Tom and I are talking about going
this Fall. I don't know if that will pan out or not.
Enjoyed being with you yesterday. We should get together for lunch later
on.
Frances
> [Original Message]
> From: Sharon Bryant <SharonBryant(a)cox.net>
> To: <clendenin(a)rootsweb.com>; <clendinen(a)rootsweb.com>;
<clendenin-dna(a)rootsweb.com>
> Date: 7/7/2007 6:33:45 PM
> Subject: [CLENDINEN] Fw: [SCOT-DNA] Off Topic: information re The
Gathering2009
>
> Thought some of you might be interested in this announcement.
>
> Sharon
>
> [I'm going to start saving my pennies. ;>) ]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <confido(a)ix.netcom.com>
> To: "Scot DNA List" <scot-dna(a)rootsweb.com>
> Cc: "Jamie Sempill" <info(a)thegathering2009.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 4:43 PM
> Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Off Topic: information re The Gathering 2009
>
>
> > Dear Listers:
> >
> > Word is just being released about The Gathering 2009. It will be held
at
> > Holyrood Park, Edinburgh, July 25-26, 2009. It is hoped to be the
largest
> > Highland games ever held in Scotland. Jamie, Lord Sempill, is one of
the
> > promoters. His enthusiasm is contagious, so I am certain this will
turn
> > out to be a great event!
> >
> > ALL clans are invited and encouraged to participate. Please check with
> > your clan to ensure they have received word. Encourage your clan's
> > leadership team to post details re your clan's plans to participate in
the
> > event to your clan's resources -- be they at Rootsweb/Ancestry or
Yahoo,
> > or the Internet in general, as well as the clan newsletter.
> >
> > You can read more and sign up for the newsletter here:
> > http://www.thegathering2009.com/
> >
> > You will also find a message describing the event posted here:
> > http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.reunion.uk.scotland/14/mb.ashx
> >
> > I encourage all of you to help to spread the word to your clans and all
> > those of Scottish descent....District Scots count too! I also caution
> > against posting the same message to multiple boards/lists at Rootsweb
as
> > that has already gotten a few in hot water. Make sure you tailor your
> > messages specificially to the resources you may target. Again --
> > encourage *your clan's leadership* to drive the spreading of the
word...
> > it will be more specific to your clan's intent with regard to the
event.
> > Some clans have other official gatherings that may have a conflict.
> >
> > This is a worldwide call for the gathering of the Clans.
> >
> > We might also consider it a prime opportunity to spread the word of the
> > Scot-Clans DNA Project and perhaps garner some good Scots from the "old
> > world" to participate in our project.
> >
> > For any of you that are attending the San Francisco Caledonia Club's
142nd
> > Annual Scottish Highland Games and Gathering, Pleasanton, California,
> > Labor Day weekend this year, you will have opportunity to drop by the
> > Gathering 2009 tent. If you are attending the Scottish Information
> > Society Meeting on Sunday, 10:30 am, Lord Sempill has agreed to come
and
> > tell us about the event.
> >
> > Yours Aye,
> >
> > Lauren
> > President, Scottish Information Society
> > Team Member, Scottish Clans DNA Project
> > Scot-DNA List Admin
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> > SCOT-DNA-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> >
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CLENDINEN-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Thomas Rufus Clendinen's grave is one of the 20 missing, of almost 300 cadet
graves we have been searching for. Our goal is to locate the graves of all
of the Battle of New Market cadets, so they can be honored every New Market
Day along with the cadets killed in the battle and buried at VMI.
We are stumped, and could really use your help!
Thomas Rufus Clendinen died March 25, 1910 in Riverdale, MD. From an
obituary, we know that his body was taken to Harpers Ferry for burial.
Harper's Ferry was a train stop, so it is more probable that his body was
taken to Bolivar Heights. His second wife, Mrs. Mary H English, was from
Charles Town; so he may have been buried there.
This is what VMI archives say about his family:
Thomas Rufus Clendinen, Class of 1867: New Market Cadet; Private, Co. D.
Genealogy: Born- March 31, 1847, in Baltimore, Md.
Father- Dr. Alexander Clendinen
Mother- Marie Louise Belt
Pat. Grandparents- unknown.
Mat. Grandparents- unknown.
Married- 1st Wife: Alice Shriver;
2nd Wife: Mary H.English, in 1908.
Children- 1st Marriage:
1st: Alice; 2nd: Rose.
Career: Lawyer.
Died- March 25, 1910, at Riverdale, Prince George Co., Md.
I have the census images from 1870, 80, 1900, and the obituary notices if
anyone related would like them. We have been advised that he is not in the
cemetery listings, but those books are not necessarily complete. The
Jefferson County Historical Society has told me that the two cemetery books
covering Jefferson Co. VA/WV burials did not include Thomas Rufus Clendenin
or Clendinin. There are Clendennings and Clendenings buried in the county,
but no Clendenins. The
only cemetery in Bolivar, WV is Fairview Lutheran Cemetery and there is no
Clendenins listed there, but it is certainly possible that he was buried
there
but has no tombstone. The Clendenin name is a more common name in Kanawha
Co., WV where the town of Charleston, WV, the state capitol, is named for
Charles Clendenin and his decendants located a short distance away at
Clendenin, WV. Harpers Ferry is just across the river from Maryland, Charles
Town is just west, and the capital, Charleston, is in the Ohio River valley
of the west.
Terry Bowers (VMI '68 Augusta, GA) started the search and has created a
database of all the cadets at
http://www.augustagavmiaa.info/new_market_database.htm . He and Terry Dorn
(VMI '78 of Virginia) are searching and photographing, while I am helping
research. The website I created with history and photos is at
http://www.picturetrail.com/vminewmarket .
Thanks for any help or suggestions you might provide.
Sarah Reveley
descendant of cadet George Francis Reveley
Appomattox, Virginia (still missing)
Hello Group,
I am posting a letter, with permission of the writer, some great ideas for
photographing headstones and related ideas.
Happy Days, Cece
CLENDENNING--Indiana PEAK--Indiana
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In regards to photographing headstones:
I depend on my digital camera. I also shoot many photos of each cemetery -
the entrance. the family groupings, individual close-ups, written
information available at the office.
I find that in libraries I now open the books and shoot photos (in Macro or
close-up mode with flash) of the pages instead of trying to photocopy them.
I use it in the offices of cemeteries to photograph the burial records, or
index cards or pages of their grave index to have for later reference. They
often have more information than is on the stone (if it still exists).
You can adjust contrast & brightness selectively to view faded parts of a
digital picture more sharply.
I often try to visit graveyards to photograph on a bright day in the early
morning or late afternoon. If the sun is slanting in across the face of the
stone the letters are much more legible due to shadowing.
A friend sent me some gravestone photos where the lettering was a beautiful
white. I asked how it was her photography produced such legible results.
She said she traveled with a can of men's shaving cream and an inexpensive
small window-cleaning squeegee. On important stones she rubbed shaving cream
into the letters and then squeegeed the face clean, so the letters filled
with white shaving cream stood out beautifully.
I have used handfuls of dust scraped from the soil and rubbed onto the face
of the stone to create 'lighter' shadows of dust in the cut lettering, that
stand out from the contrasting stone face. Its hard on your hands though.
I've always wondered if I should not take something in a baggie and a light
glove to do that with. It improves the photograph's legibility.
I also recommend you carry cut flowers or silk flowers with you on the
grave-hunting trips. I find it satisfying to decorate my relatives' graves.
Somehow I think recognition or remembrance by those that follow is
important.
Jeff Jernegan
Hi Sharon, we corresponded on this before, but my email changed so I will submit this again, with the note that I have much more and am happy to exchange info with the interested party.... and that this is still very much a "work in progress"!
Janice Quandt MacDaniels
Descendants of ??David Clendenin
1 ??David Clendenin d: 09 Jan 1801 in Westmoreland Co. PA
___ 2 Andrew Clendenen b: 1768 in Ireland d: 1851 in Perry Twp, Hocking Co. OH Burial: Probably Ohio
_____ +Mary b: 1778 in PA ? m: Abt. 1799 in Pennsylvania
________ 3 David Clendenen b: Abt. 1801 in Westmoreland Co., PA d: in Prob. Adams County, IND
__________ +Mary Hedges b: 1802 in MD m: 14 Apr 1825 in Fairfield County, Ohio Father: Stephen Hedges Mother: Sarah Butler
_____________ 4 Hannah Clendenen b: 1827 in Ohio
_____________ 4 Harriet Clendenen b: 1828 in Ohio
_______________ +John Kerr Lacey
_____________ 4 Sylvester Clendenen b: 1829 in Ohio d: 1914 in Illinois Burial: Steenbergen Cemetery, Mt Pulaski, Logan Co., IL
_______________ +Bathsheba Jones b: 10 Apr 1836 in Hallsville, Ross Co., OH d: 20 Apr 1916 in Near Mt. Pulaski, IL Burial: Steenbergen Cemetery, Mt Pulaski, Logan Co., IL m: 24 Feb 1853 in Ohio? Father: Henry Jones Mother: Nancy Moss
__________________ 5 Taylor Clendenen b: 13 Feb 1855
____________________ +Mary McKinney m: 02 Sep 1879 in Douglas Cty, IL
_______________________ 6 Paul McKinney Clendenen b: 09 Mar 1886 d: 12 Sep 1918 Burial: Meuse-Argonne American Cemetery, Romagne, Lorraine, France
_______________________ 6 Grace Clendenen
_______________________ 6 Laura Clendenen
_______________________ 6 Miriam Clendenen
__________________ 5 James Clendenen b: 03 Feb 1857 d: 28 Apr 1913
____________________ +Louise Radabaugh m: 11 Mar 1877
_______________________ 6 Florence Omah "Primrose" Clendenen b: 20 Jul 1881 d: 07 Aug 1883
_______________________ 6 Harry Hugh Clendenen b: 15 Jul 1885 in Clay Center, KS d: 26 Nov 1956
_________________________ +Eunice Mildred Landers d: 17 Nov 1903 in Riverside, CA
__________________ 5 Mary Jane Clendenen b: 25 Jul 1858 d: 08 Sep 1858
__________________ 5 William Leslie Clendenen b: 1860 d: 06 Jun 1920 in Illiopolis Twp, Sangamon Co. IL Burial: Riverside Cemetery, Illiopolis, IL
____________________ +Anna Harbert b: 1865 in Illiopolis, Sangamon Co. IL d: 21 Jul 1963 in Illiopolis, Sangamon Co. IL Burial: Riverside Cemetery, Sangamon Co., IL m: 25 Dec 1887 in Sangamon Co., IL Father: Samuel M. Harbert Mother: Serilda Miller
_______________________ 6 Lovell Clendenen b: Feb 1891 in Illiopolis, Sangamon Co. Illinois d: 24 Apr 1961 in Illiopolis, Sangamon Co. Illinois Burial: Riverside Cemetery, Illiopolis, IL
_________________________ +Rebecca Blackwell b: Abt. 1893 in Illinois d: 1928 Burial: Mt. Pulaski Cemetery, IL
_______________________ *2nd Wife of Lovell Clendenen:
_________________________ +Mary Reamer b: 07 Mar 1898 in Sangamon Co. Illinois d: 26 May 1986 in Springfield, Sangamon Co. Illinois
_______________________ 6 Alma "Ruth" Clendenen b: 01 Sep 1894 in Illiopolis, Sangamon Co. Illinois d: 30 Jul 1997 in Springfield, Sangamon Co. Illinois
_________________________ +Howard Lee Anderson b: 23 Jul 1896 in Springfield, Sangamon Co. Illinois d: 21 Mar 1995 in Petersburg, Menard Co. IL
_______________________ 6 Maud Clendenen b: 1897 in Illiopolis, Sangamon Co. Illinois d: 05 Feb 1990 in Springfield, Sangamon Co. Illinois Burial: Riverside Cemetery, Illiopolis, IL
_______________________ 6 Jules Harbert Clendenen b: 30 Jan 1900 d: Apr 1900 Burial: Riverside Cemetery, Illiopolis, IL
_______________________ 6 Irene Clendenen b: 1901 in Illiopolis, Sangamon Co. Illinois d: 26 Nov 1978 in Springfield, Sangamon Co. Illinois
_________________________ +Gayle Zirkle b: 10 Jul 1903 d: 24 Jun 1960
_______________________ 6 Mary Clendenen b: 1904
__________________ 5 George E. Clendenen b: 29 Nov 1863 d: 25 May 1937 in Arthur, IL
____________________ +Harriett (Hattie) Campbell b: 01 Dec 1869 in Illinois d: 11 Jul 1965 in Los Angeles, California Father: John H. Campbell Mother: Mary E. (Jones) Montgomery
_______________________ 6 Harold Clendenen b: 20 Aug 1901 in Illinois d: 11 Jul 1966 in Orange Co. California
_________________________ +Polly Gibbon b: 19 Jan 1902 in Illinois d: 23 Apr 1979 in Los Angeles, California
__________________ 5 John Henry Clendenen b: 30 Jan 1864 in Illinois d: 02 Aug 1943 in Mt. Pulaski, Illinois Burial: Steenbergen Cemetery, Mt Pulaski, Logan Co., IL
____________________ +Mary Agnes Scroggin b: 09 Feb 1860 in Mt. Pulaski, Il d: 31 Jul 1945 in Lincoln, Logan Co, IL Burial: Steenbergen Cemetery, Mt Pulaski, Logan Co., IL m: 09 Jan 1889 Father: Leonard David Scroggin Mother: Mary Margaret Sims
_______________________ 6 Hazel Marie Clendenen b: 25 Dec 1893 in Mt. Pulaski, IL Burial: Steenbergen Cemetery, Mt. Pulaski, IL
_________________________ +William Burris m: 25 Dec 1918
_______________________ 6 Ruby Olive Clendenen b: 24 Oct 1898 in Mt Pulaski, Logan Co., IL d: 12 Apr 1970 in Springfield, IL Burial: Steenbergen Cemetery, Mt. Pulaski, IL - my grandmother
_________________________ +Eles Harper Quandt b: 20 Jan 1897 in Carter, IL d: 04 Mar 1999 in Mt. Pulaski, IL Burial: 08 Mar 1999 Steenbergen Cemetery, Mt. Pulaski, IL m: 03 Apr 1927 Father: Louis Quandt Mother: Priscilla Perplexney White
__________________ 5 Melvina Minerva Clendenen b: 21 Jul 1867
____________________ +John Kepner b: in Bavaria, Germany m: 03 Jul 1897 in Sangamon Co. IL
_______________________ 6 Percy Raymond Kepner b: 13 Sep 1898 in Sangamon Co. IL
_______________________ 6 Anna Olive Kepner b: 19 May 1900
_______________________ 6 Macie Bathsheba Elizabeth Kepner b: 01 Jun 1902
__________________ 5 Charles Clendenen b: 17 Apr 1870 d: 25 Aug 1929
__________________ 5 Annie Olive Clendenen b: 14 Aug 1873 in Dawson, IL
____________________ +Wilburn Martin Marshall m: 17 Apr 1897 in Sangamon Co. IL
_______________________ 6 Harriet Lucille Marshall b: 21 Mar 1898 in Illiopolis d: 12 Feb 1954
_________________________ +James Reed b: 30 Mar 1881 m: 20 Apr 1942
_______________________ 6 Margery Melvina Marshall b: 13 Nov 1900 d: in Mt. Pulaski, IL
_____________ 4 Minerva Clendenen b: Abt. 1832 in Ohio d: Abt. 1850
_____________ 4 Unknown Clendenen b: Abt. 1836 in Ohio
_____________ 4 Rebecca Clendenen b: 1838 in Ohio
_____________ 4 Mary Clendenen b: 1842 in Ohio
________ 3 Nancy Clendenen b: 1802 in PA
________ 3 Henrietta Clendenen b: 1803 in PA
________ 3 Daniel Clendenen b: 1805 in PA
________ 3 James Clendenen b: 1806 in Westmoreland Co., PA d: 1867 in Hartford Twp, Adams Co. IND
__________ +Hester Mehitable Fox b: in PA m: in Fairfield County, Ohio
_____________ 4 Aaron Clendenen b: 1831 in Ohio
_____________ 4 Salem Clendenen b: 09 Mar 1833 in Fairfield County, Ohio d: 09 May 1915 in Adams Co. Indiana
_______________ +Elizabeth Pontius b: in Pickaway County, Ohio d: Jun 1858 m: Aug 1857
__________________ 5 Lavinia Clendenen
_____________ *2nd Wife of Salem Clendenen:
_______________ +Elsie Proutty b: 09 Mar 1536 in Morrow County, Ohio m: 01 Oct 1861 Father: Stephen Proutty Mother: Mary Barhan
__________________ 5 William F. Clendenen
__________________ 5 Sarah J. Clendenen
__________________ 5 John R. Clendenen
_____________ 4 Keziah Clendenen b: 1835 in Ohio
_____________ 4 Jane Clendenen b: 1839 in Ohio
_____________ 4 Jemima Clendenen b: 1841 in Indiana
________ 3 Mary Clendenen b: 1808 in PA
________ 3 Andrew Clendenen, Jr b: 1809 in PA d: 29 Jul 1875 in Green Twp. Hocking Co. OH
__________ +Nancy Slagel b: 08 Apr 1807 in MD d: 16 Nov 1894 in Perry Twp. Hocking Co. OH Burial: Bethany Cemetery m: 24 Dec 1831 Father: Joseph Slagel Mother: Margaret Monnett
_____________ 4 Mary Clendenen b: 1832
_____________ 4 Joseph Clendenen b: 1834 in Ohio
_______________ +Mary Ann Herron
_____________ 4 Eleanor Clendenen b: 27 Mar 1837 in Perry Township, Ohio d: 07 Jan 1885 in Perry Township, Ohio
_______________ +Alexander M. Chambers b: 23 Jun 1831 m: 03 Nov 1853 in Fairfield County, Ohio
__________________ 5 Allen Chambers b: 06 Oct 1854 in Perry Township, Ohio
__________________ 5 Eliza Jane Chambers b: 28 Jul 1856 in Perry Township, Ohio
__________________ 5 Josephine Chambers b: 08 May 1858 in Perry Township, Ohio
__________________ 5 Missouri Chambers b: 07 Jun 1860 in Perry Township, Ohio
__________________ 5 Francis Burke Chambers b: 02 Feb 1862 in Perry Township, Ohio
__________________ 5 Warren Chambers b: 28 Mar 1864 in Perry Township, Ohio
__________________ 5 William C. Chambers b: 01 Mar 1866 in Perry Township, Ohio
__________________ 5 Rhoda Chambers b: 28 Jun 1870 in Perry Township, Ohio
__________________ 5 Ida Florence Chambers b: 29 Jul 1874 in Perry Township, Ohio
__________________ 5 Stella Chambers b: 07 Apr 1876 in Perry Township, Ohio
_____________ 4 Rachel Clendenen b: 1839 in Ohio
_______________ +John Chambers
_____________ 4 Betsy Clendenen b: 1842 in Ohio
_____________ 4 Burnell Clendenen b: 1846 in Ohio
_____________ 4 Priscilla Clendenen b: 1848 in Ohio
_______________ +William Boyer
________ 3 Eleanor Clendenen b: 24 Jul 1812 in PA d: 09 Nov 1876
__________ +Alexander Julian m: 1834
________ 3 William Clendenen b: 14 Apr 1814 in PA d: 02 Jan 1900 in Perry Twp. Hocking Co. OH
__________ +Isabella Chambers b: 1822 m: 16 Jan 1840 in Fairfield County, Ohio
_____________ 4 George Washington Clendenen b: 1840 in Ohio
---------------------------------
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Sharon:
The information on the Clans is quite interesting and explains in part why
the people of Scotland are mostly amused by the North Americans interest in
being a Clan member. Certainly they love the interest as it brings in good
tourist dollars. Clan interest is much stronger outwith Scotland where many
still hold grudges against the chieftans who betrayed them to England.
Lauraine
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon Bryant" <SharonBryant(a)cox.net>
To: <clendenin(a)rootsweb.com>; <clendinen(a)rootsweb.com>;
<clendenin-dna(a)rootsweb.com>
Cc: <glendenning(a)rootsweb.com>; <glendinning(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:07 AM
Subject: [CLENDINEN] Fw: [SCOT-DNA] Clan or family affiliation (long)
> Hello,
>
> I thought this might be of interest to those of you who are trying to
> connect from the Americas or elsewhere to Scotland or Ireland (or in some
> cases, to both).
>
> I found particularly interesting the fact that some changed their name
> depending on the clan/family in prominence in the area in which they
> lived,
> i.e., the "boll meal" Frasers.
>
> I find myself in somewhat of a quandry. I have documented proof of descent
> from a Fraser-Glenduning marriage in Edinburgh in 1683. My maiden name was
> neither of these two names. And I do not have proof of descent or
> connection, at this point, to the Glendinnings in either Scotland or
> Ireland.
>
> The Douglases do not, currently, have a standing Chief recognized by the
> Lyon Court.
>
> Sharon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Rorer" <drorer(a)fuse.net>
> To: <scot-dna(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:34 AM
> Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Clan or family affiliation (long)
>
>
>> Since there have been a few questions about the origin of the clans I
>> thought a
>> this would be appropriate
>>
>> David Rorer
>>
>> Clans, Families and Septs by Sir Crispin Agnew of Lochnaw Bt., 13th
>> August
>> 2001(found on Electric Scotland)
>> The difference between clans, families and septs is the source of many
>> questions
>> as is the question phrased in one way or another, which asks, "to which
>> clan do
>> I belong". There are many definitions of clans and families as there are
>> people,
>> but this article will try to indicate how these matters are viewed in the
>> Lyon
>> Court.
>> It should first be recognized that a clan or family is a legally
>> recognized
>> group in Scotland, which has a corporate identity in the same way that a
>> company, club or partnership has a corporate identity in law. A clan or
>> family
>> is a ''noble incorporation" because it has an officially recognized chief
>> or
>> head who being a nobleman of Scotland confers his noble status on the
>> clan
>> or
>> family, thus making it a legally and statutorily recognized noble
>> corporation
>> often called "the Honorable Clan..." A name group, which does not have a
>> chief,
>> has no official position in the law of Scotland. The chiefs Seal of Arms,
>> incorporated by the Lord Lyon's letters Patent, is the seal of the
>> corporation,
>> like a company seal, but only the chief is empowered by law to seal
>> important
>> documents on behalf of his clan. A clan as a noble incorporation is
>> recognized
>> as the chief's heritable property - he owns it in law and is responsible
>> for its
>> administration and development.
>> So far the words clan and family have been used interchangeably in this
>> article
>> and this is the position. There is now a belief that clans are Highland
>> and
>> families are Lowland but this is really a development of the Victorian
>> era. In
>> an Act of Parliament of 1597 we have the description of the "Chiftanis
>> and
>> chieffis of all clannis...duelland in the hielands or bordouris" thus
>> using the
>> word clan to describe both Highland and Lowland families. Further, Sir
>> George MacKenzie of Rosehaugh, the Lord Advocate (Attorney General)
>> writing in
>> 1680 said "By the term 'chief' we call the representative of the family
>> from the
>> word chef or head and in the Irish (Gaelic) with us the chief of the
>> family is
>> called the head of the clan''. So it can be seen that all along the words
>> chief
>> or head and clan or family are interchangeable. It is therefore quite
>> correct to
>> talk of the MacDonald family or the Stirling clan, although modern
>> conventions
>> would probably dictate that it was the MacDonald clan and Stirling
>> family.
>> The
>> Lyon Court usually describes the chief of a clan or family as either the
>> ''Chief
>> of the Name and Arms" or as "Chief of the Honorable Clan - -"
>> Who belongs to what clan is of course, a matter of much difficulty,
>> particularly
>> today when the concept of clan is worldwide. Historically, in Scotland a
>> chief
>> was chief of "the cuntrie". He was chief of his clan territory and the
>> persons
>> who lived therein, although certain of his immediate family, would owe
>> him
>> allegiance wherever they were living. The majority of his followers and
>> in
>> particular his battle relatively to a neighboring chief, they would
>> switch
>> their
>> allegiance to the other chief. Thus we find that when Lord Lovat took
>> over
>> a
>> neighboring glen to his clan territory for the donation of a boll of meal
>> to
>> each family, the family was persuaded to change their name to Fraser and
>> owe him
>> allegiance - to this day they are called the "boll meal Frasers". Another
>> example is a migration of a family of the Macleans from the West Coast to
>> near
>> Inverness and on moving to Inverness they changed their allegiance from
>> the
>> Maclean chief to the chiefs of the Clan Chattan. Thus the Macleans of
>> Dochgarroch and their descendants and dependants are properly members of
>> the
>> Clan Chattan and not members of the Clan Maclean even though they bear a
>> common
>> surname.
>> A chief was also entitled to add to his clan by the adoption of families
>> or
>> groups of families to membership of his clan, a good example being the
>> "boll
>> meal Frasers". Equally, a chief has and had the power to expel or exclude
>> particular persons from membership of his clan and this included blood
>> members
>> of his family. It was his legal right to outlaw certain persons from his
>> clan.
>> This is accepted in the modern sense to mean that a chief is empowered to
>> accept
>> anyone he wishes to be a member of his clan or decree that his clan
>> membership
>> shall be limited to particular groups or names of people. All persons who
>> bear
>> the chief's surname are deemed to be members of his clan. Equally, it is
>> generally accepted that someone who determines to offer their allegiance
>> to the
>> chief shall be recognized as a member of that clan unless the chief has
>> decreed
>> that he will not accept such a person's allegiance, Thus, if a person
>> offers his
>> allegiance to a particular chief by joining his clan society or by
>> wearing
>> his
>> tartan, he can be deemed to have elected to join that particular clan and
>> should
>> be viewed as a member of that clan unless the chief particularly states
>> that he
>> or his name group are not to be allowed to join the clan.
>> It should also be said that the various Sept lists, which are published
>> in
>> the
>> various Clans and Tartan books, have no official authority. They merely
>> represent some person's, (usually in the Victorian eras) views of which
>> name
>> groups were in a particular clan's territory. Thus we find members of a
>> clan
>> described, as being persons owing allegiance to their chief "be pretence
>> of blud
>> or place of thare duelling". In addition to blood members of the clan,
>> certain
>> families have a tradition (even if the tradition can with the aid of
>> modern
>> records can be shown to be wrong) descent from a particular clan chief.
>> They
>> are, of course, still recognized as being members of the clan.
>> Historically, the concept of "clan territory" also gives rise to
>> difficulty,
>> particularly as certain names or Septs claim allegiance to a particular
>> chief,
>> because they come from his territory. The extent of the territory of any
>> particular chief varied from time to time depending on the waxing and
>> waning of
>> his power. Thus a particular name living on the boundaries of a clan's
>> territory
>> would find that while the chiefs power was on the up they would owe him
>> allegiance but - if his power declined retrospectively at some arbitrary'
>> date
>> which the compiler of the list has selected. Often the names are
>> Scotland-wide
>> and so it is difficult to say that particular name belongs to a
>> particular
>> clan.
>> Often surnames are shown as potentially being members of a number of
>> clans, and
>> this is because a number of that name has been found in each different
>> clan's
>> territory. Generally speaking, if a person has a particular sept name
>> which can
>> he attributed to a number of clans, either they should determine from
>> what
>> part
>> of Scotland their family originally came and owe allegiance to the clan
>> of
>> that
>> area or, alternatively, if they do not know where they came from, they
>> should
>> perhaps owe allegiance to the clan to which their family had
>> traditionally
>> owed
>> allegiance. Alternatively, they may offer their allegiance to any of the
>> particular named clans in the hope that the chief will accept them as a
>> member
>> of his clan. Equally, as has already been said, with the variations from
>> time to
>> time of particular chiefly territories, it can be said that at one
>> particular
>> era some names were members of or owed allegiance to a particular chief
>> while a
>> century later their allegiance may well have been owed elsewhere.
>> In summary, therefore, the right to belong to a clan or family, which is
>> the
>> same thing, is a matter for the determination of the chief who is
>> entitled
>> to
>> accept or reject persons who offer him their allegiance.
>> (c) Sir Crispin Agnew of Lochnaw Bt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> SCOT-DNA-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CLENDINEN-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
Hello,
I thought this might be of interest to those of you who are trying to
connect from the Americas or elsewhere to Scotland or Ireland (or in some
cases, to both).
I found particularly interesting the fact that some changed their name
depending on the clan/family in prominence in the area in which they lived,
i.e., the "boll meal" Frasers.
I find myself in somewhat of a quandry. I have documented proof of descent
from a Fraser-Glenduning marriage in Edinburgh in 1683. My maiden name was
neither of these two names. And I do not have proof of descent or
connection, at this point, to the Glendinnings in either Scotland or
Ireland.
The Douglases do not, currently, have a standing Chief recognized by the
Lyon Court.
Sharon
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Rorer" <drorer(a)fuse.net>
To: <scot-dna(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:34 AM
Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Clan or family affiliation (long)
> Since there have been a few questions about the origin of the clans I
> thought a
> this would be appropriate
>
> David Rorer
>
> Clans, Families and Septs by Sir Crispin Agnew of Lochnaw Bt., 13th August
> 2001(found on Electric Scotland)
> The difference between clans, families and septs is the source of many
> questions
> as is the question phrased in one way or another, which asks, "to which
> clan do
> I belong". There are many definitions of clans and families as there are
> people,
> but this article will try to indicate how these matters are viewed in the
> Lyon
> Court.
> It should first be recognized that a clan or family is a legally
> recognized
> group in Scotland, which has a corporate identity in the same way that a
> company, club or partnership has a corporate identity in law. A clan or
> family
> is a ''noble incorporation" because it has an officially recognized chief
> or
> head who being a nobleman of Scotland confers his noble status on the clan
> or
> family, thus making it a legally and statutorily recognized noble
> corporation
> often called "the Honorable Clan..." A name group, which does not have a
> chief,
> has no official position in the law of Scotland. The chiefs Seal of Arms,
> incorporated by the Lord Lyon's letters Patent, is the seal of the
> corporation,
> like a company seal, but only the chief is empowered by law to seal
> important
> documents on behalf of his clan. A clan as a noble incorporation is
> recognized
> as the chief's heritable property - he owns it in law and is responsible
> for its
> administration and development.
> So far the words clan and family have been used interchangeably in this
> article
> and this is the position. There is now a belief that clans are Highland
> and
> families are Lowland but this is really a development of the Victorian
> era. In
> an Act of Parliament of 1597 we have the description of the "Chiftanis and
> chieffis of all clannis...duelland in the hielands or bordouris" thus
> using the
> word clan to describe both Highland and Lowland families. Further, Sir
> George MacKenzie of Rosehaugh, the Lord Advocate (Attorney General)
> writing in
> 1680 said "By the term 'chief' we call the representative of the family
> from the
> word chef or head and in the Irish (Gaelic) with us the chief of the
> family is
> called the head of the clan''. So it can be seen that all along the words
> chief
> or head and clan or family are interchangeable. It is therefore quite
> correct to
> talk of the MacDonald family or the Stirling clan, although modern
> conventions
> would probably dictate that it was the MacDonald clan and Stirling family.
> The
> Lyon Court usually describes the chief of a clan or family as either the
> ''Chief
> of the Name and Arms" or as "Chief of the Honorable Clan - -"
> Who belongs to what clan is of course, a matter of much difficulty,
> particularly
> today when the concept of clan is worldwide. Historically, in Scotland a
> chief
> was chief of "the cuntrie". He was chief of his clan territory and the
> persons
> who lived therein, although certain of his immediate family, would owe him
> allegiance wherever they were living. The majority of his followers and in
> particular his battle relatively to a neighboring chief, they would switch
> their
> allegiance to the other chief. Thus we find that when Lord Lovat took over
> a
> neighboring glen to his clan territory for the donation of a boll of meal
> to
> each family, the family was persuaded to change their name to Fraser and
> owe him
> allegiance - to this day they are called the "boll meal Frasers". Another
> example is a migration of a family of the Macleans from the West Coast to
> near
> Inverness and on moving to Inverness they changed their allegiance from
> the
> Maclean chief to the chiefs of the Clan Chattan. Thus the Macleans of
> Dochgarroch and their descendants and dependants are properly members of
> the
> Clan Chattan and not members of the Clan Maclean even though they bear a
> common
> surname.
> A chief was also entitled to add to his clan by the adoption of families
> or
> groups of families to membership of his clan, a good example being the
> "boll
> meal Frasers". Equally, a chief has and had the power to expel or exclude
> particular persons from membership of his clan and this included blood
> members
> of his family. It was his legal right to outlaw certain persons from his
> clan.
> This is accepted in the modern sense to mean that a chief is empowered to
> accept
> anyone he wishes to be a member of his clan or decree that his clan
> membership
> shall be limited to particular groups or names of people. All persons who
> bear
> the chief's surname are deemed to be members of his clan. Equally, it is
> generally accepted that someone who determines to offer their allegiance
> to the
> chief shall be recognized as a member of that clan unless the chief has
> decreed
> that he will not accept such a person's allegiance, Thus, if a person
> offers his
> allegiance to a particular chief by joining his clan society or by wearing
> his
> tartan, he can be deemed to have elected to join that particular clan and
> should
> be viewed as a member of that clan unless the chief particularly states
> that he
> or his name group are not to be allowed to join the clan.
> It should also be said that the various Sept lists, which are published in
> the
> various Clans and Tartan books, have no official authority. They merely
> represent some person's, (usually in the Victorian eras) views of which
> name
> groups were in a particular clan's territory. Thus we find members of a
> clan
> described, as being persons owing allegiance to their chief "be pretence
> of blud
> or place of thare duelling". In addition to blood members of the clan,
> certain
> families have a tradition (even if the tradition can with the aid of
> modern
> records can be shown to be wrong) descent from a particular clan chief.
> They
> are, of course, still recognized as being members of the clan.
> Historically, the concept of "clan territory" also gives rise to
> difficulty,
> particularly as certain names or Septs claim allegiance to a particular
> chief,
> because they come from his territory. The extent of the territory of any
> particular chief varied from time to time depending on the waxing and
> waning of
> his power. Thus a particular name living on the boundaries of a clan's
> territory
> would find that while the chiefs power was on the up they would owe him
> allegiance but - if his power declined retrospectively at some arbitrary'
> date
> which the compiler of the list has selected. Often the names are
> Scotland-wide
> and so it is difficult to say that particular name belongs to a particular
> clan.
> Often surnames are shown as potentially being members of a number of
> clans, and
> this is because a number of that name has been found in each different
> clan's
> territory. Generally speaking, if a person has a particular sept name
> which can
> he attributed to a number of clans, either they should determine from what
> part
> of Scotland their family originally came and owe allegiance to the clan of
> that
> area or, alternatively, if they do not know where they came from, they
> should
> perhaps owe allegiance to the clan to which their family had traditionally
> owed
> allegiance. Alternatively, they may offer their allegiance to any of the
> particular named clans in the hope that the chief will accept them as a
> member
> of his clan. Equally, as has already been said, with the variations from
> time to
> time of particular chiefly territories, it can be said that at one
> particular
> era some names were members of or owed allegiance to a particular chief
> while a
> century later their allegiance may well have been owed elsewhere.
> In summary, therefore, the right to belong to a clan or family, which is
> the
> same thing, is a matter for the determination of the chief who is entitled
> to
> accept or reject persons who offer him their allegiance.
> (c) Sir Crispin Agnew of Lochnaw Bt
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> SCOT-DNA-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
Thought some of you might be interested in this announcement.
Sharon
[I'm going to start saving my pennies. ;>) ]
----- Original Message -----
From: <confido(a)ix.netcom.com>
To: "Scot DNA List" <scot-dna(a)rootsweb.com>
Cc: "Jamie Sempill" <info(a)thegathering2009.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 4:43 PM
Subject: [SCOT-DNA] Off Topic: information re The Gathering 2009
> Dear Listers:
>
> Word is just being released about The Gathering 2009. It will be held at
> Holyrood Park, Edinburgh, July 25-26, 2009. It is hoped to be the largest
> Highland games ever held in Scotland. Jamie, Lord Sempill, is one of the
> promoters. His enthusiasm is contagious, so I am certain this will turn
> out to be a great event!
>
> ALL clans are invited and encouraged to participate. Please check with
> your clan to ensure they have received word. Encourage your clan's
> leadership team to post details re your clan's plans to participate in the
> event to your clan's resources -- be they at Rootsweb/Ancestry or Yahoo,
> or the Internet in general, as well as the clan newsletter.
>
> You can read more and sign up for the newsletter here:
> http://www.thegathering2009.com/
>
> You will also find a message describing the event posted here:
> http://boards.rootsweb.com/topics.reunion.uk.scotland/14/mb.ashx
>
> I encourage all of you to help to spread the word to your clans and all
> those of Scottish descent....District Scots count too! I also caution
> against posting the same message to multiple boards/lists at Rootsweb as
> that has already gotten a few in hot water. Make sure you tailor your
> messages specificially to the resources you may target. Again --
> encourage *your clan's leadership* to drive the spreading of the word...
> it will be more specific to your clan's intent with regard to the event.
> Some clans have other official gatherings that may have a conflict.
>
> This is a worldwide call for the gathering of the Clans.
>
> We might also consider it a prime opportunity to spread the word of the
> Scot-Clans DNA Project and perhaps garner some good Scots from the "old
> world" to participate in our project.
>
> For any of you that are attending the San Francisco Caledonia Club's 142nd
> Annual Scottish Highland Games and Gathering, Pleasanton, California,
> Labor Day weekend this year, you will have opportunity to drop by the
> Gathering 2009 tent. If you are attending the Scottish Information
> Society Meeting on Sunday, 10:30 am, Lord Sempill has agreed to come and
> tell us about the event.
>
> Yours Aye,
>
> Lauren
> President, Scottish Information Society
> Team Member, Scottish Clans DNA Project
> Scot-DNA List Admin
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> SCOT-DNA-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>