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Jim:
If you havent done so already, take a look at the Irish Times newspaper.
Its daily edition can be accessed via the web. It is also an Irish
genealogical site.
Furthermore, you can get (for free) an Irish website the addrss of which will
be:
---------(a)Ireland.Com. Way cool!
In a genealogical article re Cleary/Cleireach it claims that the name is the
oldest recognized surname in Europe dating to 800-900 AD. The article was in
their weekend edition and may still be available if you are interested.
Bob Cleary
Actually, Cleary is not the oldest surname in Europe, it is the earliest
recorded (known to be recorded) surname. First recorded in the middle of the
tenth century according to MacLysaght's "Irish Families, Their Names, Arms
and Origins". The first Cleary was Cleireach who was born about the year 820
AD some two centuries before hereditary surnames began to be used. Cleireach
was in the line of Guaire the Hospitable (King of Connacht). also from
McLysaght's Irish Families.
The Iberians first came to Ireland in 500BC scouting for a favorable place to
migrate due to a famine.
>From the Quest for the Galloping Hogan, by Matthew J. Culligan-Hogan, the
following historical timeline of events:
"A long continuous famine drove an expeditionary force of Iberians to what
their chief Druid described as the "Island of Destiny", Innisfail.
"The favorable report of the expeditionary force started a mass migration of
Iberians to Innisfail, who then called themselves Milesians. This was
sometime around 500 BC.
"The Milesians settled in what was called, in ancient times, Dalcassia, now
comprised of the modern counties of Clare, Limerick, and Tipperary, in
central western Ireland.
"Around 300 BC the Gallo-Celts of Central Europe migrated to Ireland. The
Milesians, and the almost legendary earlier races, mingled to become the
basic native Irish stock.
"The Romans invaded Europe, leaving excellent written documents of the Celts
in Europe.
"The basic native Irish adopted Brehon Law, two principal features of which
were: land ownership by clans, and clan leadership by election, the
leadership being restricted to specific clans.
"Record-keeping was a sacred duty of the clans. Therefore, heavy penalties
were given for failure or falsification.
"Farmlands, forests, mountains, and bogs were scattered throughout Ireland,
making natural, logical and peaceful divisions of the clans.
"The conversion of Ireland to Christianity by Saint Patrick and others around
AD 500 added written records to the oral and archaelogical records that
extended back to approximately 4000 BC.
"Monks in monastaries copied original documents, sending many to the Vatican
in Rome. These and some others escaped the burning and destruction of the
Viking invasions.
"The Normans came in waves starting in the twelfth century, bringing new
architectural, technical and administrative skills.
"The native Irish and Normans mingled through gossiprage, fosterage, and
intermarriage.
"Anglo-Saxon Catholics, accepted as coreligionists, settled in Ireland during
the twelfth through the fourteenth centuries."
Also from the "Quest for the Galloping Hogan" is the following list:
"A List of Families that made up the Dalcassians"
"Modern Name Ancient Name"
"Conroy Conray
King McConry
McArthur Artureigh
McBrody Brodach
McCoghian Coghlan
McCormaick Cormicain
McEneiry Enrach
McGilduff Giolladurh
McGildea Giolladea
McGrath Craith
McLsaght O'Brien
McMahon Mainchin
McNamara Conmara
McReedy Riada
McTeigue O'Brien
Meade Meadhra
O'Brien Brian
O'Bilrigh Bilrigh
O'Bellian Beolach
O'Clanchy Clanach
O'Cormac Cormicain
O'Conklin Congolaighs
O'Dea O'Brien
O'Carmody O'Meadhra
O'Delany Deaghlabhairb
O'Finnellan Feinnedhelan
O'Gleason Gleasain
O'Grady Gradha
O'Griffin Gribhean
O'Hea Easc
O'Herlighy Erlamh
O'Hennigan Hennigan
O'Hartigan Earthoghadh
O'Healy Eailamh
O'Hurley Uriataidh
O'Hogan Oghdha
O'Hifferman Irfionnech
O'Hickey Hicidhes
O'Hannan Huanan
O'Honeen Oineach
O'Howley Ollamh
O'Hanragthy Annracht
O'Hanragman Anraidhan
O'Kearney Cearnach
O'Kelleher Ceallacher
O'Kennedy Ceanadh
O'Kerwick O'Brien
O'Looney Loinsighes
O'Mullanny Miollaineach
O'Mullowney Miollainneach
O'Meara Meadra
O'Moroney Mormheamnach
O'Neaghtain Neaghtain
O'Quill Cuilfhion
O'Quinn Cuingidh
O'Regan Raegha
O'Riady Ryada
O'Scully O'Brien
O'Slattery O'Brien
O'Sexon Seasnain
O'Spillane Speoilain
O'Shanaghan Siansanach
O'Shine Siodhachain
O'Tuohy O'Brien
O'Teigue Teigue
O'Tuomy Tuamá "
End of list
Jim McNamara
McNAMARA-McGRATH, CLEARY-CONWAY, CLEARY-McNAMARA
In a message dated 5/25/01 12:57:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
pworthin(a)mindspring.com writes:
<<
I've seen the "one of the oldest names in Europe" boilerplate for 100s of
surnames, but Cleary really is one of the oldest names. I have heard that
Cleary is one of the oldest surnames, >>
Jim:
my father used to tell me that we were descended from Irish kings. They must
have been busy little devils. Sorry I missed it.
Re Irish crests: Cleary name doesnt have one. If you send for a Cleary crest,
you get a shield w/3 leaves of some sort arranged in triangular design which
means there was no family crest. No kings. No estates. No Tara! Drat!
I too am not really interested in genealogy as my main interest in life. One
of my brothers started the whole thing and then dropped it. I then became
interested as a sort of "ego trip". That is to say that if I track my
ancestors back to the old country
to see the poverty of their situation at the time, I can then say something
along the lines "that was then and this is NOW!"
Probably a terrible thing to say but, it helps to keep life in perspective.
We may not have everything but, we have a lot. Far more than most.
Bob Cleary
Hey Bob,
I'm probably not related -- well, I probably am, you go back far enough,
it's hard not to be related to just about everybody. I figured you were
kidding around, and on a whim kidded back. I follow the Cleary postings
because my wife was a Cleary. Actually, I haven't done much research of my
own for several years, for various reasons, not the least of which, a
growing apathy about genealogy, but haven't been able to completely
eliminate the habit, so still have a few lists I haven't unsubscribed from
just yet.
I've seen the "one of the oldest names in Europe" boilerplate for 100s of
surnames, but Cleary really is one of the oldest names. I have heard that
Cleary is one of the oldest surnames, though, for real, not just from the
boilerplate you see in the magazine ads and junk mail trying to get you to
buy The [Surname] Family History book for $49.95 or whatever. They were
scribes, so the name is basically an occupation name. As opposed to a place
name or nickname. (I don't remember the title of the book where I read that,
in some book in a library, so it probably has some validity.)
With ten or eleven centuries, 45th cousin is a possibility, technically,
even 50th. I've come to feel that beyond living relatives, it really doesn't
matter. Yet some flickering flame of curiosity won't die completely, and I
still feel enough interest to pay attention when somebody else finds
something, although I can't bring myself to visit the libraries, write all
the letters, spend hours on the Internet, that sort of stuff anymore.
You're probably more related than 33 to the woman who posted all that
genealogical information with names and dates and places, though. And
probably more related than that to my wife's family. But who knows? It's all
kind of indeterminate in the end. How many generations before you're hardly
related at all to your thousands upon thousands of direct ancestors?
It can be fun, though, even if it is pretty much meaningless, overall. There
are worse hobbies.
Good luck, hope you find what you're looking for with your membership to the
list,
Phil
Phil Worthington
>The name is supposedly derived from the Gaelic "Mac a' Chlerich/Cleireach",
>son of the cleric or, sometimes, clerk. It is supposedly one of the oldest
>surnames in Europe. Maybe. Supposed to go as far back as 9th/10th century.
>It has been anglicised as Clark, Clarke, Clarkson, Cleary, Clerk, Leary,
>MacChlerich,
>MacChlery, MacClair, MacClear, MacCleary, MacClerie, MacLear, and MacLerie.
>
>The above is not based on my own research but, was derived from another
>source and, unfortunately, I cannot cite the author as I do not know who
>he/she is.
>
>So, based on the above, you might actually be my 35th cousin, 4 times
>removed, more or less.
>
>Bob Cleary
>
>
>
>==============================
>Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history
>learning and how-to articles on the Internet.
>http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library
>
Bob,
I saw a TV genealogical documentary that showed researchers stating that all
humans on earth, regardless of race are no less than 16th (I think that was
the number) cousins. This was due to the practice of Kings having first
rights to each and every bride the first night after the wedding for every
wedding performed in their kingdom.
I'm not sure I believe that, but if it is true then maybe I am a 12th cousin
of yours as I have many CLEARY 1st cousins in Ireland. LOL
Jim McNamara
CLEARY-CONWAY, McNAMARA-McGRATH, CLEARY-McNAMARA
KACHMAR-JACOBS(LECKO), HANNAH-DENK, DENK-LOSTETTER
In a message dated 5/24/01 5:45:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, MARBOB16(a)cs.com
writes:
<< So, based on the above, you might actually be my 35th cousin, 4 times
removed, more or less.
Bob Cleary >>
Possibly so.
The name is supposedly derived from the Gaelic "Mac a' Chlerich/Cleireach",
son of the cleric or, sometimes, clerk. It is supposedly one of the oldest
surnames in Europe. Maybe. Supposed to go as far back as 9th/10th century.
It has been anglicised as Clark, Clarke, Clarkson, Cleary, Clerk, Leary,
MacChlerich,
MacChlery, MacClair, MacClear, MacCleary, MacClerie, MacLear, and MacLerie.
The above is not based on my own research but, was derived from another
source and, unfortunately, I cannot cite the author as I do not know who
he/she is.
So, based on the above, you might actually be my 35th cousin, 4 times
removed, more or less.
Bob Cleary
Have there been that many generations of the CLEARY surname?
:-)
Phil
Phil Worthington
-----Original Message-----
From: MARBOB16(a)cs.com <MARBOB16(a)cs.com>
To: CLEARY-L(a)rootsweb.com <CLEARY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Cleary] CLEARY in Philadelphia
>In a message dated 5/23/01 5:33:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>mag_psu(a)rocketmail.com writes:
>
>
>> http://genconnect.rootsweb.com/gc/surnames/c/l/CLEARY/queries/10015
>>
>Sorry but I know of no connection other than the commanality of the name.
>
>Perhaps 33rd cousins, twice removed?
>
>Bob Cleary
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>==============================
>Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com!
>http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp
>
In a message dated 5/23/01 5:33:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mag_psu(a)rocketmail.com writes:
> http://genconnect.rootsweb.com/gc/surnames/c/l/CLEARY/queries/10015
>
Sorry but I know of no connection other than the commanality of the name.
Perhaps 33rd cousins, twice removed?
Bob Cleary
Posted on: CLEARY Queries
Reply Here: http://genconnect.rootsweb.com/gc/surnames/c/l/CLEARY/queries/10015
Surname: CLEARY, CRONIN
-------------------------
Looking for descendants of John CLEARY and Margaret CRONIN (b. 1861 in
Kanturk, Cork, Ireland with siblings Denis, Mary, Anna, Michael, Patrick
and Ellen). They married in 1884 in Philadelphia and had 13 children:
Ella 1885
Margaret 1887
Katherine 1888
Jospehine 1891 (married a man named Markhorst and had several children)
John 1894
Elizabeth 1896 (married a man named "Winters" and had several kids)
Francis 1899
Edward 1901
Robert 1903
Edna 1907
and others
They remained in the Philadelphia area; Margaret and John both died AFTER
1920.
Melissa Gordon
mag_psu(a)rocketmail.com