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Author: sarahsea44
Surnames:
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/133.1.1.1.2/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Barry
I have tried to email the address that was on the website, please let me know that you received it. Alternatively you can reach me at sarahsea(a)ntlworld.com
Kind regards
Sarah
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Author: JosephAHittle
Surnames:
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2.1.2.1.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
"the common belief of USA Claypoole descendants of James 'the migrant', prior to Graff's 1893 work being published; was that they were direct descendants of Oliver Cromwell. "
While this may be the case in some "family legends," it's never been the case in what I've been hearing in my lifetime. If this is what Bracken is holding to, I don't see it that way and frankly, haven't seen anyone else claim it in print. That's not saying that it isn't in print, only that I've yet to find it thusly.
Now I have another question:
Let's say that you have my Claypoole line figured differently than what seems to be the line of progression followed by different researchers even than Bracken (much earlier than her)(ie, James I, James II, James III, Jesse, Jonathan, John, George, Birt, my mom, me). If that isn't the line, what is?
I'm hardly suggesting that you cannot be correct in any of your points. We're both suggesting that we're not seeing the story the same way.
I'm not even asking you to "prove" your position. Frankly, I'm not ready to counter any of your arguments, and have made that clear from my earliest posts in dealing with my Claypoole family line.
So, if you're going to tell me that the story I've heard most of my life isn't a good one, tell me where it goes wrong. Don't keep bashing the people who've told it to me (which you're not doing directly, but because you have no idea how I came to "learn" what I "know," in effect that is exactly what you're doing).
As for your questions about my sources, let me do some checking. Maybe I mis-read something, but I don't think so at this point.
Joe
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Author: barrychapman59
Surnames: Claypoole
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/133.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Sarah,
If you'd like to email me direct via max at claypoolefamily.com - see www.claypoolefamily.com - I'll send you what I have on Benjamin, youngest son of Sir John and Lady Claypoole of Northborough.
Barry
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Author: sarahsea44
Surnames: Claypoole
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/133.1.1.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Barry
As an afterthought, I suppose I could try to trace Benjamin of the Northborough Claypooles and try to find out what happened to him, whom he married, where he lived etc. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated, I am in England in the Midlands so local(ish) to the area. Any ideas where to begin looking for him?
Kind regards
Sarah
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Author: sarahsea44
Surnames: Claypoole Cronkshaw
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/133.1.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Barry
Many thanks for your prompt reply, I also suspect the same line but have been unable to prove it as yet. My Benjamin married a Deborah Cronkshaw who's father was Nathan Cronkshaw a 'gentleman'. Nathan's father was the Rev Nathan Cronkshaw who studied at Oxford University and was (according to his inventory) a very wealthy man for the time period. Nathan snr was in his early career Head schoolmaster at Kimbolton School (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimbolton_School )a very prestigious place, I feel that Benjamin would also have been connected with the same school. In view of Benjamin Claypooles connections I do not think that he came from farming stock and would love to prove that he was the child of a less obvious member of the renowned Claypoole line. Because of the Civil War it has been difficult finding any relevant information so proving it is another huge task!
Kind regards
Sarah
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Author: barrychapman59
Surnames: Claypoole
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2.1.2.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
1) Re John Claypoole's marriage to Elizabeth Cromwell - yes, it would have been documented in England, but according to Graff, the common belief of USA Claypoole descendants of James 'the migrant', prior to Graff's 1893 work being published, was that they were direct descendants of Oliver Cromwell. My point was that descendants of James Claypoole of Jamaica held a similar mistaken belief.
2) It was James the migrant's eldest son John Claypoole who arrived in America before his father, mother and siblings. James Jr. remained in London, working in his father's business till the rest of the family left England on the 'Concord'. Ref: Balderston, Marion, Editor.(1967)'James Claypoole's Letter Book, London and Philadelphia, 1681-1684'
(NOTE: the first member of the Claypoole family of Northborough to arrive in America was James the migrant's brother, Norton. He sailed from London on the 'Bachelor's Delight', on 22 February 1678, to New York via Barbados, West Indies, where he stayed with his brother Edward for over 2 years. On 27 Feb 1681, he was granted 500 acres near New Deal, later called Lewestown, then Lewes, in Sussex Co., Delaware. He died there in 1688.)
3) Oliver Cromwell's daughter Elizabeth and husband John Claypoole had four children, namely Henry, Cromwell, Martha and Oliver. My researches haven't found a grandson of Oliver Cromwell named either James Claypoole or James Cromwell - is he a scion of one of Cromwell's other daughters?
Ref: Fraser, Antonia (1973)'Cromwell Our Chief of Men'
4) I cannot find any reference to a James Claypoole in Jamaica prior to 1770, when James Claypoole, portrait painter married Helen(a) Frazier. Do you have a primary or reputable secondary source for your claim?
Some 1200 miles SE of Jamaica, as the crow flies, Edward Claypoole, brother of James the migrant, married Abigail, the widow of Edward's friend Timothy Mascall, who died in Barbados, West Indies during March 1674. Edward Claypoole himself died in Barbados c1691/2.
5)Having searched the Pennsylvania Archives via www.footnote.com, the only Claypoole I have found who was Sheriff of Philadelphia, in addition to James'(1720/21-1784)term of 1777-1780, was John Claypoole, eldest son of James the migrant, who served two terms, namely 1687-1689 and 1693-1698.
Incidentally, I claim my direct line from James 'the migrant too; via Joseph, James 'the Sheriff' and James 'the portrait painter'.
Barry
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Author: barrychapman59
Surnames: Claypoole
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/133.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Sarah,
I suggest your Claypoole line may well be linked to the Claypoole family of Northborough, a village located just south of Market Deeping, on or close to the Roman road of Ermine Street that connected the cities of London, Lincoln & York.
Sir John Claypoole (1595-1660) and his wife Marie (or Mary)of Northborough Manor are said to have eight sons. The eldest son, John, married Elizabeth, daughter of Lord Protector Oliver Cromwell. Their youngest, Benjamin, was born c1642 and may well be the grandfather of your Benjamin! I visited the parish churches of Tinwell & Tickencote (both in Rutland)just four weeks ago, following up on Claypoole linked research - Elizabeth Wingfield Allington, nee Cecil, the maternal grandmother of Sir John Claypoole (1595-1660), is buried at Tinwell.
Barry
Tasmania, OZ
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Author: sarahsea44
Surnames:
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/133/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Hi
I have an ancestor Benjamin Claypoole born to John & Ann at Belton in Rutland on 29 JUL 1712, Benjamin was a schoolmaster, I haven't got any more information on him but would appreciate any.
Thanks
Sarah
England
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Author: JosephAHittle
Surnames:
Classification: queries
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http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2.1.2.2.1.1.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Okay,
now I'm lost. What, exactly, am I missing?
a) I've already acknowledged that Barry has done some good work.
b) I've already acknowledged his claim that Bracken may not have gotten his line in order.
c) I've already acknowledged that his line is apparently not in direct succession to mine until at least John and Mary (Angell) Claypoole.
If this is an attempt to drag me into a "dis Bracken" agenda, I'm sorry, that issue really isn't all that important to me.
So again, what is all that important that I would get "called out" on any of the issues I've addressed here?
Help?
Joe
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Author: GClaypool
Surnames: Claypool, Stanton, Keyes, Huntington, Annes, Heth
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2.1.2.2.1.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Joe, I been reading the discussions here lately and have downloaded, read and am deliberating Barry Chapman's research he has done. There are very compelling facts and theory's. We all know that genealogy research, no matter who's research much be checked and double checked before accepting it as gospel. Primary citations are a must if you can get them. Have you downloaded Barry's work and looked at it? If not please do so and see how if dovetails into or away from what Mrs. Bracken published. Good luck and happy researching.
Greg Claypool
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Author: JosephAHittle
Surnames:
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2.1.2.2.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
I've never met anyone who ever had direct contact with Evelyn to have been disappointed by her knowledge and ardor in regard to Claypool family research.
Indeed, her work seems to be the most prolific of anyone I've looked at, and if anyone does have a problem with it, I'm guessing that she would have been the most interested of anyone as to why.
I never met her, wish sorely that I had, and appreciate deeply those who have and are willing to share her insights along the way.
I've never met anyone yet who intentionally tried to throw a monkey-wrench into genealogical research. From what I have read of her, somehow I suspect that kind of motivation would have been the absolute furthest thing from her heart.
And, as you've said, we all do owe her both respect and gratitude. Most of what we "know" is because of either her direct efforts, or because she laid out her case in such a way that her footsteps are very easily traceable.
Really, what more could we ask?
Joe
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Author: JosephAHittle
Surnames:
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2.1.2.1.1.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
That Cromwell's daughter had married a Claypoole is not an undocumented occurrence of history. Over the years it has been "discussed" as to which Claypoole married "Crowmwell's favorite daughter" in 1646.
The most generally accepted theory is that Cromwell's son-in-law turns out not to be a direct ancestor of mine, but rather a many times Great-Grand Uncle to my line. The dates line up to indicate that Elizabeth's husband was most likely the son of Sir John and Mary (Angell) Claypool. My first James, out of my succession of 3 James Claypooles in subsequent generations, was a younger son of John and Mary, and was also the James Claypoole who died in 1687 in Philadelphia.
My James I, however, does not apprear to be the first of my branch of the family to arrive in America. Penn had assigned land to James I, and at least James I's son James II arrived earlier than to assess the situation and begin to lay plans (along with a trusted employee of James I) for the family dwelling of James I.
About this time, as well, Cromwell's grandson James, who evidently spent much of his time in the West Indies (Jamaica being one of the places) also seems to be frequenting Philadelphia. He also seems to predate the James that your focus appears to be addressing.
Another of James I and John's younger brothers, Norton Claypoole, may also have establishing himself in the Philadelphia area, though more on the Jersey side of the river than the Pennsylvania side. Norton also had a son James, who shows up in the written accounts of the area.
The "confusion of the James Claypooles" in early Pennsylvania history is enough to make my head spin, and I've only begun the study. Interestingly, it appears that more than one James Claypoole served as "sheriff," further muddling the issue of which James was which.
Yet another factor that seems to muddle the identities is that the claims of colonial territory in regard to which "colony" entity a certain tract of land belonged to gets to be a tedious progression to follow through with. This also muddies the water substantially.
I suspect that as otherwise suggested, there's probably still work to be done in sorting out and documentally establishing the descendancies of just about any of these early Claypoole families.
And yes, I would agree, both Elizabeth Cromwell and Betsy Ross figure in at some point. Just not down my direct line, or so far as anyone has figured yet.
'tis an interesting way to look at the history of a nation!
Joe
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Author: barrychapman59
Surnames: Claypoole
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2.1.2.1.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Thanks Joe & tc. My initial interest in the Claypoole family came from discovering that it was my 4th grandmother Eliza's maiden name and that her Claypooles were 'related' to Oliver Cromwell. The latter connection was a oral tradition in 'my' line of the Claypoole/Binning/Chapman family, handed down from generation to generation. A cousin that I met for the first time less than 10 years ago, whose line had lost contact with my line in the 1870s, also had that same oral tradition!
Rebecca Irwin Graff's work noted the Philadelphia Claypooles had a similar tradition - Benjamin Franklin recorded that 'connection' when he commented on the circumstances of Philadelphia alderman George Claypoole's (1675-1730/1) death. Graff states that this George was a son of James Claypoole (1634-1687), Quaker and migrant.
George & Deborah Claypoole's surviving son, Abraham(1723-1751) relationship to James Claypoole(1720/1-1784), Sheriff of Philadelphia 1777-1780 is confirmed by Abraham's will.
I claim my line's descent from James the Sheriff's son, known as James Claypoole Jr in the art world. Charles Willson Peale's 1812 letter to his son Rembrandt confirms the relationship between these two men - see my website www.claypoolefamily.com for further evidence!
Barry
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Author: tchoupt1
Surnames:
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2.1.2.2/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Evelyn Bracken did great work and anyone interested in Claypool(e) family history owes her big debt of gratitude. I corresponded with her before her death, trying to sort out the parentage of James Claypoole III of Lost River and she really did try hard to get things right. However, there is always the temptation to take at face value someone else's unproven assumption or hypothesis which then gets repeated as fact. She compiled such an enormous volume of information that you can be certain there are errors. I think every family historian has to look for the evidence underlying every reported lineage. That's part of the fun.
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Author: JosephAHittle
Surnames:
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2.1.2.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Hi Barry,
I've come to read with interest your site. I've been aware of it for quite some time, and appreciate the effort you've put into it.
What I've come to realize is that none of your James Claypooles are direct ancestors of my line. There are enough James Claypooles to confuse anyone, and it's really not all that surprising that over the years that there has been disagreement as to how to sort them all out.
I've got three of them to deal with (and BTW, earlier I asked if the James in Hardy County, WV was James IV in my line. In reality, James IV in my line was Jesse's brother, and ended up in NW Illinois, so I've got one of them figured out :-)
My guess is that James "the painter" was not a direct descendant of William Penn's trusted friend, the James Claypoole who died in 1687 in Philadelphia. On the other hand, I could be completely wrong with my guess, and even if I'm right, my guess really doesn't give much clue as to who "the painter" was.
But, you're right, there has been several different hypotheses, theories, and guesses along that line. Obviously they can't all be correct.
Hopefully much of this can be sorted out with the advent of digitized books and manuscripts in this age of internet accessibility.
And, I agree, there appears to be a need for the sorting process to be worked through very carefully.
In my journey I've come to appreciate even the incorrect data. Sometimes, someone else's mis-aligned short-cut reminds me not to make similar ones of my own.
And, years from now, someone else will be having a "you can't trust what they've got out" discussion about "our" efforts as well. But, that hardly means that we should stop trying to "get it right" with the resources available to us either.
And so, I press on :-)
Thanks for the heads-up!
Joe
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Author: JosephAHittle
Surnames:
Classification: queries
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http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2.1.1.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
I'm not exactly positive where Gundy is, but I'm guessing that it's probably not far from "the old home place" in Newell Township.
Don and I exchange emails from time to time. He, along with my brother Birt, have probably done the most in-depth work on the John and Ruth line of anyone I know. Both of them, as far as I can tell, also believe that the connection from John to Jesse is through Jonathan and Hannah, but neither are any more certain of it than I am.
For that matter, other than the oral tradition which evidently Bracken followed, they're probably the only ones that I know of who have found the marriage permissions for John and George Washington, with Jesse's signature on them.
So, the trail seems to be strong, in one sense, that of oral tradition and "family legend." But to say that we "have it documented" may be a little beyond the scope of certainty.
BTW, if anyone is interested in seeing some of the stuff that has been verified, or at least conversations about it, feed free to check out www.hittle.info , go to the bulletin board section and check out the Claypool board there.
Some of the questions that I started with have been addressed.
And, if you're at all interested, the Birt Claypool family reunion is always the 4th Sunday in June at Christman Park in Rossville, Illinois, just north of Danville on Route 1.
We'd be thrilled to have visitors!
Joe
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Author: barrychapman59
Surnames: Claypoole
Classification: queries
Message Board URL:
http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2.1.2/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Joe,
While I'm not descended from your later Claypoole line, what caught my attention is your comment "What I'm hoping to stumble across is a source other than Bracken which ties our John to Jesse."
You are right to query Evelyn C. Bracken's work! Anyone who is a serious family historian needs to check her work, as she referenced little primary or reputable secondary sources for her claims. She hijacked my line's descendancy with the her claim that James Claypole of Armstrong Co., PA was the son of James Claypoole Sr., 1721-1784 (Gregorian calendar), rather than James Claypoole Jr., c1743-1822, portrait painter of Philadelphia and Kingston, Jamaica.
Good luck with your ongoing research.
Barry
www.claypoolefamily.com
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Author: tchoupt
Surnames:
Classification: queries
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Message Board Post:
Gundy is a beautiful cemetary. My parents are buried there, my grandparents and my great grand parents Andrew and Mary Claypool, along with Andrew's brother James, and I think Squire as well, all children of John and Ruth. As you probably know the next generation back is at Walnut Corners. Have you communicated with Don Claypool of Oakwood IL? I don't know if he is still living but he did lots of work on our line. Let me know if you can find evidence outside of Braken to prove the connection you are looking for. I have assumed it but it would be great to have primary sources.
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Author: JosephAHittle
Surnames:
Classification: queries
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http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
What I'm hoping to stumble across is a source other than Bracken which ties our John to Jesse.
Others have attempted to backtrack her logic. Other than her version of a caregiver's recollection, the closest thing to documentation that I've heard of having been located is that Jesse evidently signed both John and George W.'s marriage permissions (it appears neither of them were 21 at marriage) as their "guardian."
I'm guessing that there is an Orphan's Court record someplace which establishes that, but no-one I've talked to has found it yet.
Another hopeful quest for me is to attempt to sort out Jonathan and Hannah's family, as well as pinpoint his time and place of death/burial. (as well as hers, for that matter).
Jonathan should be on some tax-rolls someplace, but I haven't found them as of yet either.
Questions?? I have TONS of them :-)
I'm also working on the Vermilion County families, and little by little I think I'm making progress in that area. I'm probably far behind what others have accomplished. I need to get to Gundy and take pictures next time I'm in the area (I live in Iowa).
Thanks for your interest. It's always good to meet "new" cousins! And I'm always interested.
Joe
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Author: tchoupt
Surnames:
Classification: queries
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http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.claypoole/66.2/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
Joe, did you get your questions answered? I am also a descendant of John and Ruth Wiggins Claypool(e) through their son Andrew Wood Claypool who was my great-grandfather. I have quite a bit of information on Claypool family history if you are interested.
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