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Dear all,
I did a tiny bit of checking into this in the Genealogy library in London. Argall was from an area called East Surrey, but is now part of Kent. Unlike our ancestor, he was from landed gentry so there is more info on Argall. This is supposing that John Claye came from that area, which is a hypothesis only. So the registers in that area of Kent would be useful. There are some on-line data bases that you can check.
I did not go further than this as it is a daunting task and I am a strict amateur when it comes to searching records.
Jaquelin Clay Fisher
--- On Mon, 19/4/10, clay-request(a)rootsweb.com <clay-request(a)rootsweb.com> wrote:
> From: clay-request(a)rootsweb.com <clay-request(a)rootsweb.com>
> Subject: CLAY Digest, Vol 5, Issue 8
> To: clay(a)rootsweb.com
> Date: Monday, 19 April, 2010, 0:01
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Captain Samuel Argall on the Ship
> Treasurer
> (redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 10:18:46 -0400
> From: "redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net"
> <redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net>
> Subject: [CLAY] Captain Samuel Argall on the Ship
> Treasurer
> To: "CLAY-L" <CLAY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Message-ID: <410-220104018141846236(a)earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> In reviewing the cruise excursions for my cruise May 1 from
> Norfolk to Bermuda, I noticed one tour in St. George
> discussing a stop at Buildings Bay where the famous ship
> Deliverance was built. This ship was built by
> survivors of the Sea Venture to enable them to continue to
> Virginia. I read a book about the Sea Venture that
> left England in 1609 and was shipwrecked on the island of
> Bermuda. One reason I had read this book was because
> it mentioned Sir Samuel Argall, and the Treasurer. I
> was browsing the book again yesterday.
>
> We were talking about trying to determine which port the
> ship Treasurer left from in England. After a little
> bit of research, I found two sources that say Captain Argall
> was in Dover just prior to leaving England. When
> George Percy returned to England on the ship Trial sometime
> around July 21, 1612, and Percy’s vessel was anchored in
> the port of Dover [one source called it Dover Roade], the
> former governor met with Samuel Argall, now the admiral of
> Virginia, who had just been given command of the
> Treasurer. According to Percy, the two men stayed
> together a few days in Dover, apparently to keep Argall
> company as the newly appointed admiral waited for
> unfavorable winds to change. [see page 156 of the book
> Sea Venture: Shipwreck, Survival, and The Salvation of
> Jamestown by Kieran Doherty]. This would meet the date
> of 23 July [Gynger Cook] or early August 1612 when Capt.
> Argall left England.
>
> Would this help narrow down the parish registers to
> review?
>
> Janis
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of CLAY Digest, Vol 5, Issue 8
> **********************************
>
In reviewing the cruise excursions for my cruise May 1 from Norfolk to Bermuda, I noticed one tour in St. George discussing a stop at Buildings Bay where the famous ship Deliverance was built. This ship was built by survivors of the Sea Venture to enable them to continue to Virginia. I read a book about the Sea Venture that left England in 1609 and was shipwrecked on the island of Bermuda. One reason I had read this book was because it mentioned Sir Samuel Argall, and the Treasurer. I was browsing the book again yesterday.
We were talking about trying to determine which port the ship Treasurer left from in England. After a little bit of research, I found two sources that say Captain Argall was in Dover just prior to leaving England. When George Percy returned to England on the ship Trial sometime around July 21, 1612, and Percy�s vessel was anchored in the port of Dover [one source called it Dover Roade], the former governor met with Samuel Argall, now the admiral of Virginia, who had just been given command of the Treasurer. According to Percy, the two men stayed together a few days in Dover, apparently to keep Argall company as the newly appointed admiral waited for unfavorable winds to change. [see page 156 of the book Sea Venture: Shipwreck, Survival, and The Salvation of Jamestown by Kieran Doherty]. This would meet the date of 23 July [Gynger Cook] or early August 1612 when Capt. Argall left England.
Would this help narrow down the parish registers to review?
Janis
Hi Ned and Others:
I think I have seen the website of information about the ship Treasurer written by Gynger Cook. Thanks again. I believe the ship made several voyages back and forth from England to Virginia. I know of at least one each year in 1612-1613, 1614, 1615, 1616, 1617, and 1618. See �A History of Colonial Virginia - The First Permanent Colony in America� by William Broaddus Cridlin, Chapter XI �The Ship Treasurer � Captain Samuel Argall Sails from England� Richmond, VA 1923. In 1619 the ship turned pirate and went to Bermuda. I guess the ship's end was in 1620. The ship probably sailed from Southampton on one trip, but we cannot be sure about the original voyage.
Janis
check out The Birth of Black America: the first African Americans and
the Pursuit of Freedom at Jamestown, by Tim Hashaw
published by Carroll and Graf 2007 for information on the Treasurer
-----Original Message-----
From: Ned Boyajian <nboyajian(a)earthlink.net>
To: clay(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Wed, Apr 14, 2010 8:39 pm
Subject: Re: [CLAY] Ship Named Treasurer
Hi Janis and All,
Really good thought, Janis. Hopefully this helps - Gynger Cook posted
some
research on the Treasurer on her sister's website a few years ago:
http://jshaputis.tripod.com/ClayArticles/treasurer-info.htm
-----Original Message-----
>From: Kith-n-Kin <Kith-n-Kin(a)cox.net>
>Sent: Apr 14, 2010 4:08 PM
>To: clay(a)rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: [CLAY] Ship Named Treasurer
>
>Nancy
>
>That's an interesting proposition. I don't recall the dates for Jonas,
but
>of course a DNA match would rule that in or out. There are a few Clay
men
>who have been identified with lineages to John Clay the Immigrant to
>Virginia.
>
>Do you have any Clay men who would like to get involved in that
project?
>
>Pat Dunford
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: clay-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:clay-bounces@rootsweb.com] On
Behalf
>Of nsalzer(a)juno.com
>Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:38 PM
>To: redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net; clay(a)rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: [CLAY] Ship Named Treasurer
>
>Wonder if our Jonas Clay was related to John since he shows up as ships
>captain in Bermuda.
>
>---------- Original Message ----------
>From: "redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net" <redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net>
>To: "CLAY-L" <CLAY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>Subject: [CLAY] Ship Named Treasurer
>Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:43:03 -0400
>
>Hi Clay List:
>
>I was re-reading the Clay Family Society newsletter "Pieces of Clay"
for
>February 2010, and the article "The Elusive Ancestor - John Clay" by
David
>Clay of England. I think David is on the right track. He talks about
using
>the parish registers, specifically the London parishes. We may be
able to
>narrow down the search. I think if we can focus on the history of the
ship
>Treasurer and its Captain Samuel Argall, we can determine where the
ship was
>built and where the men were recruited from, to determine where our
John
>Clay was probably living. According to the history books, the
authorization
>to build the ship was in 1611 and the ship was built in England in
1612. In
>August 1612, the ship sailed from England on its first cruise. John
Clay
>was on this first cruise. The ship first entered the Nansemond River.
The
>ship does not get to Point Comfort [Virginia] until February 11, 1613.
>
>In November of 1616, Captain Argall was selected deputy-governor of
>Virginia. The command of the Treasurer was given to Captain Daniel
Elfrith.
>In 1624, Captain John Smith recorded the ships end in 1620. She was a
wreck
>lying in a Bermuda Creek. Nathaniel Butler, the new Governor of Somers
>Islands, reported salvaged some guns from her and erected them on the
>Smith's and Paget Island forts. Nothing has been said about her crew,
of
>how many perished on the ship. Captain Daniel Elfrith does show up in
>history later, so he does not perish. Smith's Fort is on Governor's
Island.
>Paget Fort is on Paget Island, St. George, Bermuda.
>
>Nathaniel Butler, governor of Bermuda wrote to the Earl of Warwick that
>Elfrith's vessel was "in an unseaworthy condition and with her a
number of
>negros" when he arrived in the island later that year 1619. He further
>stated that "he [Elfrith] has disposed of his lordships negroes
according to
>instructions, but that the Treasurer's people were dangerous-tongued
fellows
>and had given out secretly that, if they were not paid to their
uttermost
>penny of wages, they would go to the Spanish Ambassador and tell all."
>
>The Treasurer was noted as being scarcely seaworthy in January 1620,
but it
>departed from Bermuda nevertheless for Virginia. An article from
Cambridge
>University Press said that in February 1620, the Treasurer was "a
leaky,
>tired old ship that returned her [Angela] to Virginia before
overturning and
>sinking in a creek off the James River." Angela/Angelo, an African
woman,
>is listed in the muster/census of 1624 as having arrived in Virginia,
James
>City, in the Treasurer. No date is listed. The ship could actually
still be
>in the James River of Virginia.
>
>So - since on May 1 I will be on a cruise from Norfolk VA to Bermuda,
I am
>curious as to where you think the ship is lying. Has anyone checked
the
>history of Bermuda and forts for the truth in the theory the ship
Treasurer
>is lying in a Bermuda Creek??? Did our John Clay stay on the ship
until it
>returned to James City??? Do you think he disembarked at Point
Comfort in
>1613???
>
>Janis in NC
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>CLAY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in
>the subject and the body of the message
>
>
>-------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CLAY-request(a)rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the
body of
the message
Twitter: NedBoyajian for high-tech, marketing, and other interesting
news
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CLAY-request(a)rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the
body of
the message
There are some Clays in Michigan, but I've lost their info since my email crashed a couple years ago. I'll see if I can locate them, but it may take some time. Jonas I died in the 1650's in Maine. He could have sailed the seas at the time referenced. Jonas 2 also sailed.
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Kith-n-Kin" <Kith-n-Kin(a)cox.net>
To: <clay(a)rootsweb.com>
Subject: Re: [CLAY] Ship Named Treasurer
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:08:50 -0700
Nancy
That's an interesting proposition. I don't recall the dates for Jonas, but
of course a DNA match would rule that in or out. There are a few Clay men
who have been identified with lineages to John Clay the Immigrant to
Virginia.
Do you have any Clay men who would like to get involved in that project?
Pat Dunford
-----Original Message-----
From: clay-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:clay-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf
Of nsalzer(a)juno.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:38 PM
To: redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net; clay(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CLAY] Ship Named Treasurer
Wonder if our Jonas Clay was related to John since he shows up as ships
captain in Bermuda.
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net" <redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net>
To: "CLAY-L" <CLAY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Subject: [CLAY] Ship Named Treasurer
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:43:03 -0400
Hi Clay List:
I was re-reading the Clay Family Society newsletter "Pieces of Clay" for
February 2010, and the article "The Elusive Ancestor - John Clay" by David
Clay of England. I think David is on the right track. He talks about using
the parish registers, specifically the London parishes. We may be able to
narrow down the search. I think if we can focus on the history of the ship
Treasurer and its Captain Samuel Argall, we can determine where the ship was
built and where the men were recruited from, to determine where our John
Clay was probably living. According to the history books, the authorization
to build the ship was in 1611 and the ship was built in England in 1612. In
August 1612, the ship sailed from England on its first cruise. John Clay
was on this first cruise. The ship first entered the Nansemond River. The
ship does not get to Point Comfort [Virginia] until February 11, 1613.
In November of 1616, Captain Argall was selected deputy-governor of
Virginia. The command of the Treasurer was given to Captain Daniel Elfrith.
In 1624, Captain John Smith recorded the ships end in 1620. She was a wreck
lying in a Bermuda Creek. Nathaniel Butler, the new Governor of Somers
Islands, reported salvaged some guns from her and erected them on the
Smith's and Paget Island forts. Nothing has been said about her crew, of
how many perished on the ship. Captain Daniel Elfrith does show up in
history later, so he does not perish. Smith's Fort is on Governor's Island.
Paget Fort is on Paget Island, St. George, Bermuda.
Nathaniel Butler, governor of Bermuda wrote to the Earl of Warwick that
Elfrith's vessel was "in an unseaworthy condition and with her a number of
negros" when he arrived in the island later that year 1619. He further
stated that "he [Elfrith] has disposed of his lordships negroes according to
instructions, but that the Treasurer's people were dangerous-tongued fellows
and had given out secretly that, if they were not paid to their uttermost
penny of wages, they would go to the Spanish Ambassador and tell all."
The Treasurer was noted as being scarcely seaworthy in January 1620, but it
departed from Bermuda nevertheless for Virginia. An article from Cambridge
University Press said that in February 1620, the Treasurer was "a leaky,
tired old ship that returned her [Angela] to Virginia before overturning and
sinking in a creek off the James River." Angela/Angelo, an African woman,
is listed in the muster/census of 1624 as having arrived in Virginia, James
City, in the Treasurer. No date is listed. The ship could actually still be
in the James River of Virginia.
So - since on May 1 I will be on a cruise from Norfolk VA to Bermuda, I am
curious as to where you think the ship is lying. Has anyone checked the
history of Bermuda and forts for the truth in the theory the ship Treasurer
is lying in a Bermuda Creek??? Did our John Clay stay on the ship until it
returned to James City??? Do you think he disembarked at Point Comfort in
1613???
Janis in NC
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CLAY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
the subject and the body of the message
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CLAY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Wonder if our Jonas Clay was related to John since he shows up as ships captain in Bermuda.
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net" <redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net>
To: "CLAY-L" <CLAY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Subject: [CLAY] Ship Named Treasurer
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:43:03 -0400
Hi Clay List:
I was re-reading the Clay Family Society newsletter "Pieces of Clay" for February 2010, and the article "The Elusive Ancestor - John Clay" by David Clay of England. I think David is on the right track. He talks about using the parish registers, specifically the London parishes. We may be able to narrow down the search. I think if we can focus on the history of the ship Treasurer and its Captain Samuel Argall, we can determine where the ship was built and where the men were recruited from, to determine where our John Clay was probably living. According to the history books, the authorization to build the ship was in 1611 and the ship was built in England in 1612. In August 1612, the ship sailed from England on its first cruise. John Clay was on this first cruise. The ship first entered the Nansemond River. The ship does not get to Point Comfort [Virginia] until February 11, 1613.
In November of 1616, Captain Argall was selected deputy-governor of Virginia. The command of the Treasurer was given to Captain Daniel Elfrith. In 1624, Captain John Smith recorded the ships end in 1620. She was a wreck lying in a Bermuda Creek. Nathaniel Butler, the new Governor of Somers Islands, reported salvaged some guns from her and erected them on the Smiths and Paget Island forts. Nothing has been said about her crew, of how many perished on the ship. Captain Daniel Elfrith does show up in history later, so he does not perish. Smiths Fort is on Governors Island. Paget Fort is on Paget Island, St. George, Bermuda.
Nathaniel Butler, governor of Bermuda wrote to the Earl of Warwick that Elfriths vessel was in an unseaworthy condition and with her a number of negros when he arrived in the island later that year 1619. He further stated that he [Elfrith] has disposed of his lordships negroes according to instructions, but that the Treasurers people were dangerous-tongued fellows and had given out secretly that, if they were not paid to their uttermost penny of wages, they would go to the Spanish Ambassador and tell all.
The Treasurer was noted as being scarcely seaworthy in January 1620, but it departed from Bermuda nevertheless for Virginia. An article from Cambridge University Press said that in February 1620, the Treasurer was a leaky, tired old ship that returned her [Angela] to Virginia before overturning and sinking in a creek off the James River. Angela/Angelo, an African woman, is listed in the muster/census of 1624 as having arrived in Virginia, James City, in the Treasurer. No date is listed. The ship could actually still be in the James River of Virginia.
So - since on May 1 I will be on a cruise from Norfolk VA to Bermuda, I am curious as to where you think the ship is lying. Has anyone checked the history of Bermuda and forts for the truth in the theory the ship Treasurer is lying in a Bermuda Creek??? Did our John Clay stay on the ship until it returned to James City??? Do you think he disembarked at Point Comfort in 1613???
Janis in NC
Hi Janis and All,
Really good thought, Janis. Hopefully this helps - Gynger Cook posted some research on the Treasurer on her sister's website a few years ago: http://jshaputis.tripod.com/ClayArticles/treasurer-info.htm
-----Original Message-----
>From: Kith-n-Kin <Kith-n-Kin(a)cox.net>
>Sent: Apr 14, 2010 4:08 PM
>To: clay(a)rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: [CLAY] Ship Named Treasurer
>
>Nancy
>
>That's an interesting proposition. I don't recall the dates for Jonas, but
>of course a DNA match would rule that in or out. There are a few Clay men
>who have been identified with lineages to John Clay the Immigrant to
>Virginia.
>
>Do you have any Clay men who would like to get involved in that project?
>
>Pat Dunford
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: clay-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:clay-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf
>Of nsalzer(a)juno.com
>Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 2:38 PM
>To: redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net; clay(a)rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: [CLAY] Ship Named Treasurer
>
>Wonder if our Jonas Clay was related to John since he shows up as ships
>captain in Bermuda.
>
>---------- Original Message ----------
>From: "redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net" <redwingersgen(a)earthlink.net>
>To: "CLAY-L" <CLAY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>Subject: [CLAY] Ship Named Treasurer
>Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 15:43:03 -0400
>
>Hi Clay List:
>
>I was re-reading the Clay Family Society newsletter "Pieces of Clay" for
>February 2010, and the article "The Elusive Ancestor - John Clay" by David
>Clay of England. I think David is on the right track. He talks about using
>the parish registers, specifically the London parishes. We may be able to
>narrow down the search. I think if we can focus on the history of the ship
>Treasurer and its Captain Samuel Argall, we can determine where the ship was
>built and where the men were recruited from, to determine where our John
>Clay was probably living. According to the history books, the authorization
>to build the ship was in 1611 and the ship was built in England in 1612. In
>August 1612, the ship sailed from England on its first cruise. John Clay
>was on this first cruise. The ship first entered the Nansemond River. The
>ship does not get to Point Comfort [Virginia] until February 11, 1613.
>
>In November of 1616, Captain Argall was selected deputy-governor of
>Virginia. The command of the Treasurer was given to Captain Daniel Elfrith.
>In 1624, Captain John Smith recorded the ships end in 1620. She was a wreck
>lying in a Bermuda Creek. Nathaniel Butler, the new Governor of Somers
>Islands, reported salvaged some guns from her and erected them on the
>Smith's and Paget Island forts. Nothing has been said about her crew, of
>how many perished on the ship. Captain Daniel Elfrith does show up in
>history later, so he does not perish. Smith's Fort is on Governor's Island.
>Paget Fort is on Paget Island, St. George, Bermuda.
>
>Nathaniel Butler, governor of Bermuda wrote to the Earl of Warwick that
>Elfrith's vessel was "in an unseaworthy condition and with her a number of
>negros" when he arrived in the island later that year 1619. He further
>stated that "he [Elfrith] has disposed of his lordships negroes according to
>instructions, but that the Treasurer's people were dangerous-tongued fellows
>and had given out secretly that, if they were not paid to their uttermost
>penny of wages, they would go to the Spanish Ambassador and tell all."
>
>The Treasurer was noted as being scarcely seaworthy in January 1620, but it
>departed from Bermuda nevertheless for Virginia. An article from Cambridge
>University Press said that in February 1620, the Treasurer was "a leaky,
>tired old ship that returned her [Angela] to Virginia before overturning and
>sinking in a creek off the James River." Angela/Angelo, an African woman,
>is listed in the muster/census of 1624 as having arrived in Virginia, James
>City, in the Treasurer. No date is listed. The ship could actually still be
>in the James River of Virginia.
>
>So - since on May 1 I will be on a cruise from Norfolk VA to Bermuda, I am
>curious as to where you think the ship is lying. Has anyone checked the
>history of Bermuda and forts for the truth in the theory the ship Treasurer
>is lying in a Bermuda Creek??? Did our John Clay stay on the ship until it
>returned to James City??? Do you think he disembarked at Point Comfort in
>1613???
>
>Janis in NC
>
>
>
>
>-------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>CLAY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
>the subject and the body of the message
>
>
>-------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CLAY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Twitter: NedBoyajian for high-tech, marketing, and other interesting news
Hi Clay List:
I was re-reading the Clay Family Society newsletter "Pieces of Clay" for February 2010, and the article "The Elusive Ancestor - John Clay" by David Clay of England. I think David is on the right track. He talks about using the parish registers, specifically the London parishes. We may be able to narrow down the search. I think if we can focus on the history of the ship Treasurer and its Captain Samuel Argall, we can determine where the ship was built and where the men were recruited from, to determine where our John Clay was probably living. According to the history books, the authorization to build the ship was in 1611 and the ship was built in England in 1612. In August 1612, the ship sailed from England on its first cruise. John Clay was on this first cruise. The ship first entered the Nansemond River. The ship does not get to Point Comfort [Virginia] until February 11, 1613.
In November of 1616, Captain Argall was selected deputy-governor of Virginia. The command of the Treasurer was given to Captain Daniel Elfrith. In 1624, Captain John Smith recorded the ships end in 1620. She was a wreck lying in a Bermuda Creek. Nathaniel Butler, the new Governor of Somers Islands, reported salvaged some guns from her and erected them on the Smith�s and Paget Island forts. Nothing has been said about her crew, of how many perished on the ship. Captain Daniel Elfrith does show up in history later, so he does not perish. Smith�s Fort is on Governor�s Island. Paget Fort is on Paget Island, St. George, Bermuda.
Nathaniel Butler, governor of Bermuda wrote to the Earl of Warwick that Elfrith�s vessel was �in an unseaworthy condition and with her a number of negros� when he arrived in the island later that year 1619. He further stated that �he [Elfrith] has disposed of his lordships negroes according to instructions, but that the Treasurer�s people were dangerous-tongued fellows and had given out secretly that, if they were not paid to their uttermost penny of wages, they would go to the Spanish Ambassador and tell all.�
The Treasurer was noted as being scarcely seaworthy in January 1620, but it departed from Bermuda nevertheless for Virginia. An article from Cambridge University Press said that in February 1620, the Treasurer was �a leaky, tired old ship that returned her [Angela] to Virginia before overturning and sinking in a creek off the James River.� Angela/Angelo, an African woman, is listed in the muster/census of 1624 as having arrived in Virginia, James City, in the Treasurer. No date is listed. The ship could actually still be in the James River of Virginia.
So - since on May 1 I will be on a cruise from Norfolk VA to Bermuda, I am curious as to where you think the ship is lying. Has anyone checked the history of Bermuda and forts for the truth in the theory the ship Treasurer is lying in a Bermuda Creek??? Did our John Clay stay on the ship until it returned to James City??? Do you think he disembarked at Point Comfort in 1613???
Janis in NC