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Okay, the immigrant is the one born in 1587, how about if we call him John
1587 s/o John 1558 rather than John the immigrant, son of John, that is way
too confusing, someone else had a fit a few weeks ago about calling John 1587
"John Claye" and said that only John 1558 was "John Claye", now it looks like
we have two of them, right?
In a message dated 5/31/00 10:42:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mrick2(a)bellsouth.net writes:
> There is no proof that the father of John Claye (the immigrant) was John
> Claye I. No one knows who the immigrant's father was. TRADITIONALLY,
> the father is shown as John Claye with two sons, John Claye (the
> immigrant) and William.
>
> John Claye, the immigrant, was married twice. The first wife's name was
> Anne. Her maiden name is not known. She was the mother of William the
> younger and John III. The second wife was Elizabeth, the mother of
> Charles.
>
> I've never seen any proof that there was a son named Francis.
>
> John Claye I (Traditional)
> John Claye II (the immigrant)
> William Claye (no known descendants)
>
> John Claye II (the immigrant)
> m. (1) Anne
> William the younger Clay
> John Clay III
> m. (2) Elizabeth
> Charles Clay
>
Sandy in Florida
[Sandra Griffith]
In a message dated 5/31/00 10:43:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mrick2(a)bellsouth.net writes:
> John Claye the immigrant is usually shown with only two sons from the
> first marriage - William and John...no Henry, Thomas or Francis.
I have this John/1558 with two children now, but died in Wales, does that
mean he immigrated to the new world, and then went back to die in Wales? or
is it the other one, see chart below.
The problem of sending info w/o dates is confusion results, a few months ago
I got this info from someone who claims to be the desc. of Charles, s/o john,
no dates so maybe she does not mean John 1558, but some other John,
however---I can't tell. And both of them had children named John and William?
>>Date: 2/17/00
My Lineage is a follows:
Captain John Clay [1587?]
Charles Clay
Charles Clay
Thomas Clay
John Moore Clay 1757 -1828
Simeon Clay 1785 - unknown
John Green Clay 1811 - 1894
William Edward Clay 1839 - 1902
Ross Gilliland Clay 1885 - 1962<<
I have deleted the child Charles, and now have John 1558 with two children,
Descendants of John Claye
1 John Claye b: 1558 in Wales d: 1623 in Wales
.... 2 John Clay II b: 1587 in Wales d: 1656 in Virginia
........ +Anne Unknown m: Abt. 1624 in Jamestown, Virginia
Colony d: Bef. 1645 Father: Mother:
.... *2nd Wife of John Clay II:
........ +Elizabeth Unknown m: Bef. 1645 Father:
Mother:
.... 2 William Clay b: 1588 in England d: 1655 in Charles City,
VA
Sandy in Florida
[Sandra Griffith]
I have just worked out that my great great grandfather Levi Clay was second
cousin to Henry Clay (they shared the same great grandfather (Henry Clay
1672-1760). Cousin-wise, does that make me a second cousin thrice removed,
or have I got it completely wrong? Any help from those who have a better
handle on this than me would be appreciated.
Thanks
Jackie
There is no proof that the father of John Claye (the immigrant) was John
Claye I. No one knows who the immigrant's father was. TRADITIONALLY,
the father is shown as John Claye with two sons, John Claye (the
immigrant) and William.
John Claye, the immigrant, was married twice. The first wife's name was
Anne. Her maiden name is not known. She was the mother of William the
younger and John III. The second wife was Elizabeth, the mother of
Charles.
I've never seen any proof that there was a son named Francis.
John Claye I (Traditional)
John Claye II (the immigrant)
William Claye (no known descendants)
John Claye II (the immigrant)
m. (1) Anne
William the younger Clay
John Clay III
m. (2) Elizabeth
Charles Clay
Mary Anne
In a message dated 5/31/00 6:27:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jfa(a)globalnet.co.uk writes:
> I have just worked out that my great great grandfather Levi Clay was second
> cousin to Henry Clay (they shared the same great grandfather (Henry Clay
> 1672-1760). Cousin-wise, does that make me a second cousin thrice removed,
There are charts to help with this, but I can't find mine, below is a chart
of what I have on Henry 1672, please make additions if you can
Sandy in Florida
[Sandra Griffith]
Descendants of Henry Clay I
1 Henry Clay I b: 03 August 1672 in Henrico Co., VA d: 1760
in Chesterfield Co., VA
. +Mary Mitchell b: 1693 in Virginia m: 1709 in Henrico/Chesterfield
Co., VA d: 1777 Father: Mother:
.... 2 William Mitchell Clay b: 1710 in Henrico Co., VA d: 06
September 1774 in Virginia
........ +Martha Anne Lewis b: Abt. 1711 m: 1732 d: Bef. 01
January 1764 Father: Mother:
.... *2nd Wife of William Mitchell Clay:
........ +Agnes Unknown m: Aft. 1764 in Virginia
Father: Mother:
.... 2 Henry Clay II b: 03 September 1711 in Henrico Co., VA d:
1764 in Cumberland Co., VA
........ +Lucy Green d: 1805 Father: Mother:
.... 2 Charles Clay b: 31 January 1716/17 d: 1789 in Powhatan
Co., VA
........ +Martha Green b: 25 November 1719 m: 11 November 1741 d: 06
September 1793 Father: Mother:
.... 2 John Clay b: Abt. 1718 d: 1761-1762 in Chesterfield Co.,
VA
........ +Sarah Watkins Father: Mother:
.... *2nd Wife of John Clay:
........ +Mary Bass Father: Mother:
.... 2 Amey Clay b: 1713 in Chesterfield Co., VA d: Abt. 1774 in
Amelia Co., VA Alt. date: 1720 birth
........ +William Marston Green b: Abt. 1705 in Amelia Co., VA m:
Abt. 1730 d: 1744-1747 in Amelia Co., VA Father: Mother:
.... *2nd Husband of Amey Clay:
........ +Benjamin Williamson m: 1748 Father: Mother:
.... 2 Mary Clay b: Abt. 1722
........ +Mister Watkins Father: Mother:
.... 2 Martha Clay d: 01 March 1745/46
........ +William Bass b: 05 December 1707 m: 06 May 1731 d:
1769-1775 Father: Mother:
In a message dated 5/29/00 11:37:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mrick2(a)bellsouth.net writes:
> "Clay" compiled by Ruth C. Burrell, Peggy C. Peacock, and Shirley L.
> Wilcox as well as the research of Robert Clay say that there were three
> sons - William, John and Charles. William does not seem to have had any
> surviving children. The compliers of "Clay" show John as 'possible',
> born ca 1627 possibly Charles City Co., VA; d. 1675 Isle of Wight Co.,
> VA; married ca 1650 possibly Charles City Co., VA to Mary _____ who
> survived him. No children mention in this publication.
Which John are you talking about? I thought you meant john 1558, but then you
mention another john born 1627, I have john Jr. born 1587. below my signature
is a chart of john claye, is this son john 1587 the father of the one born in
1627? And was there a Henry for john 1558? is he the one with the 3 sons
above, HELP! Too many Johns, need numbers/dates to keep them straight
Sandy in Florida
Descendants of John Claye
1 John Claye b: 1558 in Wales d: 1623 in Wales
.... 2 John Clay II b: 1587 in Wales d: 1656 in Virginia
........ +Anne Unknown m: Abt. 1624 in Jamestown, Virginia
Colony d: Bef. 1645 Father: Mother:
.......... 3 Francis Clay b: Abt. 1626 d: 1667
.......... 3 John? Clay III b: 1627 d: 1675 in Isle of Wight Co., VA
.............. +Mary Unknown Father: Mother:
.......... 3 William Clay b: Abt. 1630
.............. +Emlin Unknown Father: Mother:
.......... 3 Thomas Clay b: Abt. 1634
.... *2nd Wife of John Clay II:
........ +Elizabeth Unknown m: Bef. 1645 Father:
Mother:
.......... 3 Charles Clay b: 1645 in Charles City Co., VA d: 1686
in Henrico Co., VA
.............. +Hannah Wilson d: Bef. August 1706 Father:
John WILSON Mother:
.... 2 Charles Clay
.... 2 William Clay b: 1588 in England d: 1655 in Charles City,
VA
Does anyone have a line with Henry Clay the statesmen. My grandfather always
said that we where related to him. I have had little luck finding a line to
him. Any help would be appreciated.
Joel Clay
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Anne C. Rick <mrick2(a)bellsouth.net>
To: CLAY-L(a)rootsweb.com <CLAY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Date: Monday, May 29, 2000 11:36 AM
Subject: John's children
>"Clay" compiled by Ruth C. Burrell, Peggy C. Peacock, and Shirley L.
>Wilcox as well as the research of Robert Clay say that there were three
>sons - William, John and Charles. William does not seem to have had any
>surviving children. The compliers of "Clay" show John as 'possible',
>born ca 1627 possibly Charles City Co., VA; d. 1675 Isle of Wight Co.,
>VA; married ca 1650 possibly Charles City Co., VA to Mary _____ who
>survived him. No children mention in this publication.
>
>The probate records of William's estate exist - Will is missing. He was
>married to Emlin _____ who survived him.
>
>BTW, "Clay" shows an older brother to John the immigrant. William,
>sometimes referred to as William the Elder to distinguish him from his
>nephew, was born ca 1588 England and died after 1655 in Charles City
>Co., VA. Came to VA in 1638. No know descendants.
>
>William and John Claye are shown as the sons of John Claye (Tradition).
>Here's where the problem may start. Stories get handed down in families
>and get changed along the way. While oral history can be amazingly
>correct, it is also infamous for being wrong - way wrong. I have other
>surnames where there is a "traditional" person. This simply means that
>oral history has given us this person but no proof exists that the
>information is correct. And just like the Clay lineage, there are those
>who will not let go of the 'traditional' name.
>
>The recent interest in genealogy has brought forth many family stories
>and has put those stories under a microscope. Some are easily proven or
>disproven. Others we may never know about. I've got one that's driving
>me crazy! Along with the family story goes absolute NO information in
>the records.
>
>Mary Anne
>
>
>==== CLAY Mailing List ====
>Visit the Rootsweb Archives at:
>http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl
>
>
"Clay" compiled by Ruth C. Burrell, Peggy C. Peacock, and Shirley L.
Wilcox as well as the research of Robert Clay say that there were three
sons - William, John and Charles. William does not seem to have had any
surviving children. The compliers of "Clay" show John as 'possible',
born ca 1627 possibly Charles City Co., VA; d. 1675 Isle of Wight Co.,
VA; married ca 1650 possibly Charles City Co., VA to Mary _____ who
survived him. No children mention in this publication.
The probate records of William's estate exist - Will is missing. He was
married to Emlin _____ who survived him.
BTW, "Clay" shows an older brother to John the immigrant. William,
sometimes referred to as William the Elder to distinguish him from his
nephew, was born ca 1588 England and died after 1655 in Charles City
Co., VA. Came to VA in 1638. No know descendants.
William and John Claye are shown as the sons of John Claye (Tradition).
Here's where the problem may start. Stories get handed down in families
and get changed along the way. While oral history can be amazingly
correct, it is also infamous for being wrong - way wrong. I have other
surnames where there is a "traditional" person. This simply means that
oral history has given us this person but no proof exists that the
information is correct. And just like the Clay lineage, there are those
who will not let go of the 'traditional' name.
The recent interest in genealogy has brought forth many family stories
and has put those stories under a microscope. Some are easily proven or
disproven. Others we may never know about. I've got one that's driving
me crazy! Along with the family story goes absolute NO information in
the records.
Mary Anne
In a message dated 5/27/00 9:38:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mrick2(a)bellsouth.net writes:
> You're giving John and Anne more sons that I've seen on any lists.
> William and John, Jr. seem to be the accepted ones
I don't know if this is directed to me, but here is where I got the names
>> Clay Family Article, 1950 "Clay Family Is One Of The Oldest In This
County" Article was published 26 Aug. 1950 in the 1950 Centennial Edition of
the Beckley Post-Herald.
Reprinted by permission.
The Clay family is one of the oldest in America. Members of this family
resided in what is now Raleigh County even before it's foundation 100 years
ago and have figured prominently through the years of the county's existence.
John Clay, an ancient planter, came to Virginia in 1613, and his wife, Ann,
in 1623. It is claimed by some that he came from Wales, but the best
authority is that he was English. It is known that he had three sons, whose
names, according to some, were Henry, William, and Charles, while others
state that he had four sons, Francis, William, Thomas, and Charles. At any
rate from the sons of John Clay descended most of the Virginia Clays. There
was a Clay family also in Surrey County at an early date, and it is probable
that the names of this family in the early records has caused the confusion
as to the names of John Clay's children. <<
Sandy in Florida
Hello, all
It appears that my natural father, Douglas Berneville Webster CLAYE, went to
live in Australia, married a lady of German extraction called Gisela, and
had a further 2 or 3 children. I've just dicovered a cousin in the UK, his
brother's son, who told me this, also that Douglas Claye died sometime in
the late 1960s/early 1970s and lived at Campbeltown near Canberra.
So this means my half-brother Graeme and I have another 2 or 3 half-siblings
born in Australia. Could I ask SKS in Australia to look for their
registrations? Father's name as above, mother's maiden surname unknown,
first name Gisela.
He went to prison in the early 1950s for bigamy (Graeme was the product of
the bigamous marriage) and I don't know how long for, so the children in
Australia will have been born around late 1950s/1960s.
I'd be grateful for any help.
Margaret Metcalfe (Essex UK)
PS: BTW you'll notice that I've put my initials in the subject line. This
is on advice from my partner Barry, who works for Demon Internet. He says
that the newer breed of viruses are able to attach themselves to emails and
attachments, so by putting my initials you'll know this message comes from a
trusted source. Please put your initials in the subject line of messages to
me, for the same reason.
You're giving John and Anne more sons that I've seen on any lists.
William and John, Jr. seem to be the accepted ones. I'm basing this on
what little I know of Robert Clay's research and 'Clay'.
Mary Anne
In a message dated 5/25/00 1:03:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mrick2(a)bellsouth.net writes:
> The best information available on the Clay's states that John (NMN)
> Claye, the immigrant, was married twice: (1) Anne, whose maiden name is
> not know and (2) Elizabeth, whose maiden name is not know but may have
> been Frame. There were two sons from the first marriage - not much is
> known about them. The second marriage produced Charles from whom most
> of us are descended.
Do you know which children go to which marriage? chart below my signature,
thanks
Sandy in Florida
Descendants of John Clay
1 John Clay b: 1587 in Wales d: 1656 in Virginia
. +Anne Unknown m: Abt. 1624 in Jamestown, Virginia Colony d:
Bef. 1645 Father: Mother:
.... 2 Francis Clay b: Abt. 1626 d: 1667
.... 2 William Clay b: Abt. 1630
........ +Emlin Unknown Father: Mother:
.... 2 Thomas Clay b: Abt. 1634
.... 2 John? Clay d: 1675 in Isle of Wight Co., VA
........ +Mary Unknown Father: Mother:
*2nd Wife of John Clay:
. +Elizabeth Unknown m: Bef. 1645 Father: Mother:
.... 2 Charles Clay b: 1645 in Charles City Co., VA d: 1686 in
Henrico Co., VA
........ +Hannah Wilson d: Bef. August 1706 Father: John
WILSON Mother:
Very tactful and correct. I am as guilty as many. I have written down
"notes" with the hopes of disproving or proving and never put the line "this
is not verified or researched". I know from all our coorespondence and my
own research what is proven but haven't corrected my own written material.
Now is the time to clean up the mess.
thanks...greg
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary Anne C. Rick [mailto:mrick2@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 11:03 AM
To: CLAY-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Clay Lineage
This is one of those times when you wish to be very tactful but aren't
sure how to be and still get your point across.
The best information available on the Clay's states that John (NMN)
Claye, the immigrant, was married twice: (1) Anne, whose maiden name is
not know and (2) Elizabeth, whose maiden name is not know but may have
been Frame. There were two sons from the first marriage - not much is
known about them. The second marriage produced Charles from whom most
of us are descended.
No one has been able to prove the ancestry of John Claye and many have
tried. The business of John of Gloucester, etc. is incorrect. The
English kept very good records of their titled people and there is
nothing the records to show the immigrant's descent. As a matter of
fact, the supposed lineage of the Claye's (Sir John, etc) is not
provable either. Apparently earlier researchers grabbed what looked
good and declared their job done. What a mess they left us!!!
The Clay lineage from Charles on down is usually correct or only mildly
in error.
It is not unusual for a family to have difficulty proving their lineage
before the first immigrant to this country. This is unfortunate but a
fact we have to accept. We are after the truth and sometimes the truth
just wasn't recorded.
There is quite a bit of information on GenForum-Clay on the above
subject.
Mary Anne
==== CLAY Mailing List ====
Visit the RootsWeb Archives at:
http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl
This is one of those times when you wish to be very tactful but aren't
sure how to be and still get your point across.
The best information available on the Clay's states that John (NMN)
Claye, the immigrant, was married twice: (1) Anne, whose maiden name is
not know and (2) Elizabeth, whose maiden name is not know but may have
been Frame. There were two sons from the first marriage - not much is
known about them. The second marriage produced Charles from whom most
of us are descended.
No one has been able to prove the ancestry of John Claye and many have
tried. The business of John of Gloucester, etc. is incorrect. The
English kept very good records of their titled people and there is
nothing the records to show the immigrant's descent. As a matter of
fact, the supposed lineage of the Claye's (Sir John, etc) is not
provable either. Apparently earlier researchers grabbed what looked
good and declared their job done. What a mess they left us!!!
The Clay lineage from Charles on down is usually correct or only mildly
in error.
It is not unusual for a family to have difficulty proving their lineage
before the first immigrant to this country. This is unfortunate but a
fact we have to accept. We are after the truth and sometimes the truth
just wasn't recorded.
There is quite a bit of information on GenForum-Clay on the above
subject.
Mary Anne
Douglas B W CLAYE married Irene May PALMER at the parish church in Thames
Ditton, Surrey on 4th October 1936. She lived at 5 Bridge Cottages, Thames
Ditton (it's a small place, between Esher and Kingston-on-Thames). Before
the M25 and Heathrow it must have been a very quiet, rural place.
According to family gossip which my half-brother, Graeme CLAYE by a later
marriage, was told, there could be up to 4 children from the Claye/Palmer
marriage of 1936. If so I want to make contact with them because they are
our - Graeme's and my - half-siblings.
Can anyone help?
Margaret Metcalfe (Essex UK)
Subject: CLAYE - looking for relatives
I am looking for DOUGLAS BERNEVILLE WEBSTER CLAYE born 1917 at Plumstead,
London, lived in Yorkshire and in London, served in World War II in the
British Army.
Or if he is deceased, his offspring from his marriage to Miss Palmer in
1936. There could be 4 born late 1930s/1940s. If you are out there, I am
your half-sister and you also have a half-brother, Graeme Claye.
I am Douglas Claye's natural daughter, I was born in 1935. He could be
still alive and if so I want to make contact.
Any information will be gratefully received.
Margaret Metcalfe (Essex
In a message dated 5/23/00 10:57:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RickieBlas
writes:
> I am descended from Obedience Clay and Richard Belcher. Have nothing on
> the Clays at all.
I have her name as Mary, if you can add to this please do, thanks, I am from
Phoebe, there is a photo of the statue on my web page, which one are you
from? also my step dad was from phoebe and Richard, which made my Mom his
cousin! story also on web page
<A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/sandrag/index.html">All My Mama's</A>
Sandy in Florida
Descendants of Richard Belcher
1 Richard Belcher b: 1710 in Henrico Co., VA d: October 1763 in
Chesterfield Co., VA
. +Mary Obedience Clay b: 1714 in Virginia m: 1732 in Henrico Co.,
VA Father: Mother:
.... 2 Anne Belcher b: 1730 in Henrico Co., VA
.... 2 Isom Belcher b: 1732 in Amelia/Henrico Co., VA d:
January 1823 in Tazewell Co., VA
........ +Elizabeth Clay m: in Franklin Co., VA Father:
Mother:
.... 2 Richard Belcher b: 1734 in Henrico Co., VA
.... 2 Phoebe Belcher b: 1735-1738 in Franklin Co., VA d: 26
July 1810 in Giles Co., VA
........ +Mitchell Clay b: Abt. 1736 in Franklin Co., VA m: April
1760 in Franklin Co., VA d: April 1811 in Pearisburg, Giles Co, VA
Father: William Mitchell CLAY Mother: Martha Anne LEWIS
.... 2 Elizabeth Ann? Belcher b: 1742 in Henrico Co., VA
I am looking for DOUGLAS BERNEVILLE WEBSTER CLAYE born 1917 at Plumstead,
London, lived in Yorkshire and in London, served in World War II in the
British Army.
Or if he is deceased, his offspring from his marriage to Miss Palmer in
1936. There could be 4 born late 1930s/1940s. If you are out there, I am
your half-sister and you also have a half-brother, Graeme Claye.
I am Douglas Claye's illegitimate daughter, I was born in 1935. He could be
still alive and if so I want to make contact.
Any information will be gratefully received.
Margaret Metcalfe (Essex UK)
I am researching my wife's CLAY family that came from Vermont/New Hampshire.
This is what I have so far.
Paul CLAY born 1792 in Vermont/New Hampshire
he married Sarah RAND in 1813 in Plattsburg, New York
he then migrated to Ontario in 1822.
they had the following children
Simeon
Daniel
David
George
Philander
John
Louisa
Melissa
Sarah
Emiline
Mary Ann
William
James
Charles
I have run into a brick wall on finding Paul's parents and hope that someone
can help.
Thanks in advance,
Ralph Bird
Lansing, Mich.
e-mail Birdret(a)aol.com