Beginning March 2nd, 2020 the Mailing Lists functionality on RootsWeb will be discontinued. Users will no longer be able to send outgoing emails or accept incoming emails. Additionally, administration tools will no longer be available to list administrators and mailing lists will be put into an archival state.
Administrators may save the emails in their list prior to March 2nd. After that, mailing list archives will remain available and searchable on RootsWeb
Lisa:
Suggest you contact Gem Nelson at the Cressman Family Association at <
gemnels(a)aol.com>. My name, Chrisman, is one of many spellings which derive from the
original Crossmann families who emigrated from Pfungstadt, Germany in the
early 1700s. The name translates to mean a follower of Christ. The Family
Assoc has four books available. Your Christman line may/may not decend from the
Pfungstadt Croessmanns.
It was very interesting to read about the Black Dutch (Deutsch). Thank you.
Glenn
Hello Gayle. My Grandmother was a Christman. Her ancestors came from the
"Palatine area of Germany". Part of the family settled for a time in Herkimer
County, New York. Part of the family relocated to Minnesota (I don't know
if parts of those families settled somewhere along the way). The story goes,
as I understand it, that someone in the direct line had married an Oneida
Indian. My ancestry is: Clara Jane Christman, daughter of Isaac, s/o
Nicholas, s/o Isaac, s/o John Johannes, s/o Jacob, s/o Johannes- b. Palatine area,
Germany.
Again, as I understand it, the Christmans were quite a large clan and spread
out all over the country.
_MeGoToo(a)aol.com_ (mailto:MeGoToo@aol.com)
In a message dated 1/23/2007 7:19:15 P.M. Central Standard Time,
glstevens2000(a)yahoo.com writes:
Hello everyone.
Thanks for any help on this, My g.g.grandfather came from Ger. to Pa. then
sons came to MI.
Can anyone tell me the meaning of Black Dutch, They say my grandfather looked
Indian. and they were WHITE.
Any help out there
THANKS
Gayle S
A lot of Christmans/Chrismans/Crismans, etc. etc. did come from Germany -
particularly the Palatine area, but some are believed to have come from
the part of Germany known as Swabia. And a huge number of them settled
in parts of Pennsylvania. William Penn had something a lot better to
offer than what they had - or didn't have - at home.
There were C's of various spellings in Chester Co. PA. in the late 1700s
and 1800. Also some in Montgomery and Berks Counties during that era.
Also some in upstate New York. I had not heard the term "Black Dutch"
before, so have found this discussion very interesting. I'm wondering if
those in New York were the ones who connected so well with the
Indians.....
Happy hunting!
Helen
--------------------------------------
On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 18:25:27 -0800 "Lola" <lolam6(a)sbcglobal.net> writes:
> My husband is a Christman. His Father was born in Texas, his Grand
> Father
> was born in Ohio.
> He and his Father and Grand Father were all dark hair and brown
> eyes. I
> don't know what they were. They came from Germany to Pennsylvania.
> The Grand
> Father is our brick wall.
> We can't seem to get beyond him.
> Lola.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: christman-bounces(a)rootsweb.com
> [mailto:christman-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of gayle lee
> stevens
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:18 PM
> To: ROOTS; roots-request(a)rootsweb.com; CRISMAN; Genealogy.com
> Subject: [CHRISTMAN] Word meaning
>
>
> Hello everyone.
> Thanks for any help on this, My g.g.grandfather came from Ger.
> to Pa.
> then sons came to MI.
> Can anyone tell me the meaning of Black Dutch, They say my
> grandfather
> looked Indian. and they were WHITE.
>
> Any help out there
> THANKS
> Gayle S
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Don't pick lemons.
> See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CHRISTMAN-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CHRISTMAN-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
My husband is a Christman. His Father was born in Texas, his Grand Father
was born in Ohio.
He and his Father and Grand Father were all dark hair and brown eyes. I
don't know what they were. They came from Germany to Pennsylvania. The Grand
Father is our brick wall.
We can't seem to get beyond him.
Lola.
-----Original Message-----
From: christman-bounces(a)rootsweb.com
[mailto:christman-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of gayle lee stevens
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:18 PM
To: ROOTS; roots-request(a)rootsweb.com; CRISMAN; Genealogy.com
Subject: [CHRISTMAN] Word meaning
Hello everyone.
Thanks for any help on this, My g.g.grandfather came from Ger. to Pa.
then sons came to MI.
Can anyone tell me the meaning of Black Dutch, They say my grandfather
looked Indian. and they were WHITE.
Any help out there
THANKS
Gayle S
---------------------------------
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CHRISTMAN-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
THANK YOU to each an eveyone that was kind enough to write about Black Dutch.
Thank You
Gayle S
---------------------------------
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
Thank you for you info.
Could you give me any info on your Chrisman family as we have it spelled many different ways.
Gayle S
rachlisa <rachlisa(a)bellsouth.net> wrote:
Got question myself. What does the phrase "High German" mean?
----- Original Message -----
From: "rachlisa"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:33 PM
Subject: [CHRISTMAN] Black Dutch reply
> Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [CHRISTMAN] Word meaning
>
>
>> Gayle:
>> I have a Christman in my family that was dark complected. i could never
>> find
>> any correlation between the name Christman and the darkish skin though.i
>> did
>> fond that he was part Spanish and part Native American--creek indian. His
>> dad was a Christman- the name then changed to Chrisman. they dropped the
>> T
>> in some census..His mom had a maiden name of Featherstone.......So I
>> presume
>> he and the family were hiding their native american ancestory in order to
>> survive.......But
>> heres a little info I have found on Black Dutch:
>> research of trying to find out just what a Black Dutch or Black Irish
>> was, I
>> found that some have associated them with the Melungeon. The Melungeons
>> live mostly in the Appalachian Mountains. They are people whose ancestry
>> has been shrouded in mystery. They are most likely the descendants of
>> the
>> late 16th century Turks and Portuguese stranded on the Carolina shores.
>> Sir
>> Francis Drake liberated some 200 young Turks on the North Carolina coast.
>> They later intermarried with Powhatan, Pamunkey, Chickahominy, and
>> Catawba
>> Indians. These two groups combined later, settled in the Appalachians,
>> and
>> with further intermarriages with the Cherokees. The word Melungeon is
>> both
>> Portuguese and Turkish, and meaning "cursed soul." Today, Melungeon
>> descendants can be found among all racial and ethnic groups. Like the
>> Cherokee, these people were not out to advertise the fact that they were
>> Melungeon, rather they were trying their best to hide it. There are also
>> many Melungeon roots in southeastern Kentucky families.
>> Melungeon families had to hide their heritage. "Free Persons of Color"
>> laws, were used to take their land and bar them from courts and schools.
>> There are family stories of being Black Dutch, and being Cherokee. Many
>> of
>> these families just seem to show up with no past.
>>
>> The Cherokee was type cast early in the white history of this country.
>> We
>> were light skinned, and they just assumed we were mixed with the whites.
>> The Cherokee actually had complexions that ranged in a variety of skin
>> colors. These ranged from very light to very dark. They assumed that
>> the
>> darker ones were part black. They drove many of our people off their
>> lands
>> because of the darker skin. Many would not leave. They hid out in the
>> woods and in the mountains. Many were forced to live as "white" citizens
>> just for survival. Most lost their Cherokee heritage. Very few were
>> able
>> to hang onto them. Until 1909 they could not vote or hold office. They
>> drove away or forced many onto Indian territory. This forced our people
>> into hiding, and making it better to be "Black Dutch, Black Irish" or
>> anything that was dark, than to be an American Indian.
>>
>> Some people of native American ancestory simply used that term for
>> survival.
>>
>> According to researcher James Pylant, based on his extensive survey of
>> American families claiming Black Dutch as part of their heritage:
>>
>> "There are strong indications that the original "Black Dutch" were
>> swarthy
>> complexioned Germans. Anglo-Americans loosely applied the term to any
>> dark-complexioned American of European descent. The term was adopted as
>> an
>> attempt to disguise Indian or infrequently, tri-racial descent. By the
>> mid-1800s the term had become an American colloquialism; a derogative
>> term
>> for anything denoting one's small stature, dark coloring, working-class
>> status, political sentiments, or anyone of foreign extraction."
>> He also writes:
>>
>> "In contrast to the Anglo-surnamed Melungeons, nearly 60% of American
>> families reporting Black Dutch tradition bear surnames that are either
>> decidedly German or possibly Americanized from Germanic origin." (Pylant,
>> 1997)
>> German Gypsies, Roma People, are also known as Black Dutch, and there is
>> some overlap in surnames between present-day Gypsies and the American
>> families with a "Black Dutch" tradition
>>
>> WHO WERE THE BLACK DUTCH?
>>
>> WHO WERE THE BLACK DUTCH ? ? ? Your answers ran a spectrum from family
>> tradition through encyclopedia citations, and because your findings may
>> assist others who find this tradition in their family, here are some
>> responses:
>>
>> DUTCH, according to Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia: - a term which
>> originally
>> referred to ANYTHING of GERMAN derivation thus High Dutch signified the
>> High
>> German language, and Low Dutch the Low German.
>>
>> In modern usage, however, the term Dutch may be CORRECTLY applied ONLY to
>> the peoples and the language of the Netherlands. The phrase "Pennsylvania
>> Dutch" referring to the speech and origin of the inhabitants of certain
>> sections of Pennsylvania, dates from the time when DUTCH SIGNIFIED
>> GERMAN.
>>
>> The War of Spanish Succession, 1704-1714 fought by Austria, England, the
>> Netherlands and Prussia - against France and Spain, arose over disputes
>> over
>> the succession to the throne of Spain on the death of Charles II of
>> Spain.
>>
>> Spanish soldiers married Dutch (Holland) girls, and their children. whose
>> coloring was olive, with black hair were called "Black Dutch". Their
>> Holland
>> neighbors were fair skinned and blond. This explanation seems to have
>> come
>> down in several of your families who claim "Black Dutch" descent.
>>
>> Another reported that the WILHITES who were imported to VA by Gov.
>> SPOTTSWOOD as part of the Germana Colony of Iron workers were "Black
>> Dutch."
>> They came from Alsace-Lorraine an area of contention between France and
>> Germany. They had black hair, "china blue to purplish blue eyes", fair
>> skin,
>> and tall. "The Black Forest" was mentioned as their home.
>>
>> No doubt some of the German-speaking immigrants to the colonies WERE
>> descendants of some of the darker races.
>>
>> How we may have warped the meaning of "Black Dutch" becomes apparent in
>> both
>> a newspaper article and a letter. At a time when it was not fashionable
>> to
>> have Indian blood, here is what might happen:
>>
>> "It used to be that if you had Indian blood in you and someone asked you
>> what you were, you'd say 'Black Dutch' but now more and more of our
>> people
>> are coming out," said Morning Star, wife of Chief Neal McCormick, chief
>> of
>> the Eastern Creek Indian Nation.
>>
>> Another writer, descendant of a Creek Chief, wrote "the term Black Dutch
>> is
>> used to refer to one that has Indian Blood, and most particularly with
>> CREEK
>> INDIAN BLOOD. Although there were a few German/Swiss in the Creek Nation,
>> they were in the minority. The term acutally does not refer be have any
>> connection to this nationality. The Creeks preferred the Scotch, English
>> or
>> Irish in that order as far as marriage was concerned. There is no
>> explanation as to why they preferred the Scotch." So you see the term
>> used
>> to distinguish and describe progeny of Hollander-Spanish marriages, was
>> later the disquise used by Indian white descendants to cover their red
>> heritage.
>>
>> We must hope that our "enlightened age" will see a renewed value placed
>> on
>> heritage, be it from red-white-or black.
>>
>> This is what I have found abt the Black Dutch. if anyonehas any info on
>> the
>> name Christman let me know also!
>>
>> lisa
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CHRISTMAN-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CHRISTMAN-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
---------------------------------
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
Gayle
I found this on Google, maybe it will help http://www.geocities.com/mikenassau/BlackDutch.htm
George
gayle lee stevens <glstevens2000(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello everyone.
Thanks for any help on this, My g.g.grandfather came from Ger. to Pa. then sons came to MI.
Can anyone tell me the meaning of Black Dutch, They say my grandfather looked Indian. and they were WHITE.
Any help out there
THANKS
Gayle S
---------------------------------
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
=====
If you would prefer digest mode to mail mode, drop a note to roots-admin(a)rootsweb.com and ask for the digest...
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ROOTS-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
---------------------------------
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
"High German" is the German dialect that is considered "correct" and without
local accents or colloquialisms. This would be the dialect that most
well-bred wealthy Germans speak. It may also be a reference to the upper class
that speaks it, but of that, I'm not sure.
Michelle
Gayle, Type in Black Dutch on Google. There are several ones to read.
Bonnie
----- Original Message -----
From: "gayle lee stevens" <glstevens2000(a)yahoo.com>
To: "ROOTS" <roots(a)rootsweb.com>; <roots-request(a)rootsweb.com>; "CRISMAN"
<christman(a)rootsweb.com>; "Genealogy.com" <genealogy(a)email.genealogy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: [CHRISTMAN] Word meaning
> Hello everyone.
> Thanks for any help on this, My g.g.grandfather came from Ger. to Pa.
> then sons came to MI.
> Can anyone tell me the meaning of Black Dutch, They say my grandfather
> looked Indian. and they were WHITE.
>
> Any help out there
> THANKS
> Gayle S
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Don't pick lemons.
> See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CHRISTMAN-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I have Christman's in my family, although I have not managed to trace them
very far. My great grandfather was Jesse Christman from Toledo, Ohio and I
believe his father was Benjamin. Beyond that, I am stuck.
I really can't comment on "Black Dutch", however, I do know that the "Black
Irish" were the dark skinned children of Irish women and the sailors of the
Spanish Armada in the late 1500's. The term dates back to the reign of
Elizabeth I.
Just thought I'd weigh in.
Michelle Posner
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [CHRISTMAN] Word meaning
> Gayle:
> I have a Christman in my family that was dark complected. i could never find
> any correlation between the name Christman and the darkish skin though.i did
> fond that he was part Spanish and part Native American--creek indian. His
> dad was a Christman- the name then changed to Chrisman. they dropped the T
> in some census..His mom had a maiden name of Featherstone.......So I presume
> he and the family were hiding their native american ancestory in order to
> survive.......But
> heres a little info I have found on Black Dutch:
> research of trying to find out just what a Black Dutch or Black Irish was, I
> found that some have associated them with the Melungeon. The Melungeons
> live mostly in the Appalachian Mountains. They are people whose ancestry
> has been shrouded in mystery. They are most likely the descendants of the
> late 16th century Turks and Portuguese stranded on the Carolina shores. Sir
> Francis Drake liberated some 200 young Turks on the North Carolina coast.
> They later intermarried with Powhatan, Pamunkey, Chickahominy, and Catawba
> Indians. These two groups combined later, settled in the Appalachians, and
> with further intermarriages with the Cherokees. The word Melungeon is both
> Portuguese and Turkish, and meaning "cursed soul." Today, Melungeon
> descendants can be found among all racial and ethnic groups. Like the
> Cherokee, these people were not out to advertise the fact that they were
> Melungeon, rather they were trying their best to hide it. There are also
> many Melungeon roots in southeastern Kentucky families.
> Melungeon families had to hide their heritage. "Free Persons of Color"
> laws, were used to take their land and bar them from courts and schools.
> There are family stories of being Black Dutch, and being Cherokee. Many of
> these families just seem to show up with no past.
>
> The Cherokee was type cast early in the white history of this country. We
> were light skinned, and they just assumed we were mixed with the whites.
> The Cherokee actually had complexions that ranged in a variety of skin
> colors. These ranged from very light to very dark. They assumed that the
> darker ones were part black. They drove many of our people off their lands
> because of the darker skin. Many would not leave. They hid out in the
> woods and in the mountains. Many were forced to live as "white" citizens
> just for survival. Most lost their Cherokee heritage. Very few were able
> to hang onto them. Until 1909 they could not vote or hold office. They
> drove away or forced many onto Indian territory. This forced our people
> into hiding, and making it better to be "Black Dutch, Black Irish" or
> anything that was dark, than to be an American Indian.
>
> Some people of native American ancestory simply used that term for survival.
>
> According to researcher James Pylant, based on his extensive survey of
> American families claiming Black Dutch as part of their heritage:
>
> "There are strong indications that the original "Black Dutch" were swarthy
> complexioned Germans. Anglo-Americans loosely applied the term to any
> dark-complexioned American of European descent. The term was adopted as an
> attempt to disguise Indian or infrequently, tri-racial descent. By the
> mid-1800s the term had become an American colloquialism; a derogative term
> for anything denoting one's small stature, dark coloring, working-class
> status, political sentiments, or anyone of foreign extraction."
> He also writes:
>
> "In contrast to the Anglo-surnamed Melungeons, nearly 60% of American
> families reporting Black Dutch tradition bear surnames that are either
> decidedly German or possibly Americanized from Germanic origin." (Pylant,
> 1997)
> German Gypsies, Roma People, are also known as Black Dutch, and there is
> some overlap in surnames between present-day Gypsies and the American
> families with a "Black Dutch" tradition
>
> WHO WERE THE BLACK DUTCH?
>
> WHO WERE THE BLACK DUTCH ? ? ? Your answers ran a spectrum from family
> tradition through encyclopedia citations, and because your findings may
> assist others who find this tradition in their family, here are some
> responses:
>
> DUTCH, according to Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia: - a term which originally
> referred to ANYTHING of GERMAN derivation thus High Dutch signified the High
> German language, and Low Dutch the Low German.
>
> In modern usage, however, the term Dutch may be CORRECTLY applied ONLY to
> the peoples and the language of the Netherlands. The phrase "Pennsylvania
> Dutch" referring to the speech and origin of the inhabitants of certain
> sections of Pennsylvania, dates from the time when DUTCH SIGNIFIED GERMAN.
>
> The War of Spanish Succession, 1704-1714 fought by Austria, England, the
> Netherlands and Prussia - against France and Spain, arose over disputes over
> the succession to the throne of Spain on the death of Charles II of Spain.
>
> Spanish soldiers married Dutch (Holland) girls, and their children. whose
> coloring was olive, with black hair were called "Black Dutch". Their Holland
> neighbors were fair skinned and blond. This explanation seems to have come
> down in several of your families who claim "Black Dutch" descent.
>
> Another reported that the WILHITES who were imported to VA by Gov.
> SPOTTSWOOD as part of the Germana Colony of Iron workers were "Black Dutch."
> They came from Alsace-Lorraine an area of contention between France and
> Germany. They had black hair, "china blue to purplish blue eyes", fair skin,
> and tall. "The Black Forest" was mentioned as their home.
>
> No doubt some of the German-speaking immigrants to the colonies WERE
> descendants of some of the darker races.
>
> How we may have warped the meaning of "Black Dutch" becomes apparent in both
> a newspaper article and a letter. At a time when it was not fashionable to
> have Indian blood, here is what might happen:
>
> "It used to be that if you had Indian blood in you and someone asked you
> what you were, you'd say 'Black Dutch' but now more and more of our people
> are coming out," said Morning Star, wife of Chief Neal McCormick, chief of
> the Eastern Creek Indian Nation.
>
> Another writer, descendant of a Creek Chief, wrote "the term Black Dutch is
> used to refer to one that has Indian Blood, and most particularly with CREEK
> INDIAN BLOOD. Although there were a few German/Swiss in the Creek Nation,
> they were in the minority. The term acutally does not refer be have any
> connection to this nationality. The Creeks preferred the Scotch, English or
> Irish in that order as far as marriage was concerned. There is no
> explanation as to why they preferred the Scotch." So you see the term used
> to distinguish and describe progeny of Hollander-Spanish marriages, was
> later the disquise used by Indian white descendants to cover their red
> heritage.
>
> We must hope that our "enlightened age" will see a renewed value placed on
> heritage, be it from red-white-or black.
>
> This is what I have found abt the Black Dutch. if anyonehas any info on the
> name Christman let me know also!
>
> lisa
Hello everyone.
Thanks for any help on this, My g.g.grandfather came from Ger. to Pa. then sons came to MI.
Can anyone tell me the meaning of Black Dutch, They say my grandfather looked Indian. and they were WHITE.
Any help out there
THANKS
Gayle S
---------------------------------
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.