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Author: asmcj
Surnames:
Classification: queries
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http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.christian/2137.3.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.2/mb.ashx
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Rest up Charlie! I will be taking a break over the holidays too.
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Author: Kennith_Simpson
Surnames:
Classification: queries
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http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.christian/2137.3.1.1.1.1.1.1.2.1/mb.ashx
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Thanks for the message, hope all goes well for you and wish you a speedy recovery from yur surgery.
Happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas and God Bless.
Ken
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Author: nicknurse1
Surnames:
Classification: queries
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Have to let you know, I'm having surgery on Monday. Won't be able to write or type for about 6 wks. Surgery on left arm and am left handed. Merry Christmas...frustration for a month...not gonna be thrilled. Talk to you later.
Charlie
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Author: asmcj
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Classification: queries
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http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.christian/2137.3.1.1.1.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx
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Agree looks don't mean anything.
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Author: Kennith_Simpson
Surnames:
Classification: queries
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Yes, go to http://genforum.genealogy.com. Go to the forum page and look for Wingo Family Genealogy Forum. I thought it was interesting myself. The good thing about it is that it was posted in May of 2012, so it is a recent post.
Ken
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Author: asmcj
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Classification: queries
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http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.christian/2137.3.1.1.1.1.2.1/mb.ashx
Message Board Post:
THAT is interesting! Can you please send the link? I wonder if we can chase down the source for Wingo family's claim.
Also, there is another woman on the forums who says she has copies of letters from TBC descendant claiming he was part Shawnee. She wrote this to Red Wolf. I tried writing to her but have not heard back. Would be thrilled to hear from her and see if she would share those letters.
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Author: Kennith_Simpson
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Classification: queries
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http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.christian/2137.3.1.1.1.1.1.1/mb.ashx
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Hi, just for the record, same here, no red heads that I know of. My family except for me are also mostly tall and some could pass as Italian or other than your typical white anglo-saxon male. I had one uncle that everyone swore was at least part Indian because he wore long black hair and looked the part, I don't think he was but he became the victim of oral tradition. I take after my maternal grandmother's side the FORD family of McDowell and Wyoming Counties. I have never meet or seen any members of my maternal grandfather's family (the Rotenberry's) so I don't know about them. My paternal side does show features that could also be Southern European. My daughter has long black hair but more of the Spanish look. so it is easy to confuse some European features with NA features. When my mother last saw my daughter she thought she looked like she had Indian blood. Her mother was of english descent, her father a MOORE and her mother a WALLEY. Her maternal grandmother w!
as a LANDRUM. Her paternal grandmother was a SMITH, her great grandfather was Squire Smith. No known NA blood lines in her family either. Looks can be very deceiving.
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Author: Kennith_Simpson
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Classification: queries
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Thanks, appreciate the update.
I located an interesting message on Gen Forum, June 1, 2012. Wingo Family genealogy. It stated that Thomas Christian Sr., Hezekiah Witt Sr., and Thomas Mastin may have been brothers-in-law. All were believed to have been married to Chief Cornstalk's daughters. The above named men had sons that carried their names. If this were true then Thomas Bailey Christian would have been part NA on his mother's side which would answer the question of why Thomas Mastin had the children and why the stories went around that the children were Indians. Unfortunately there is nothing to substantiate the information. If Thomas Bailey Christian's mother had been Native American it would show up in the BETA Ethnicity test but would be so minute it would be a very very small percentage if enough to show up at all. Just thought I would pass the information on to you. It is a concept that I had only slightly considered. TBC being the off spring of a white man and NA woman. The Y-DNA would!
only show the male line so it naturally would not indicate any NA blood lines.
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Author: asmcj
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Message Board Post:
Thanks Charlie. We have a couple red heads in our family line but not enough to warrant being called the "red headed Christians".
What I think is more remarkable is the number of direct Christian descendants in my line that are very tall, with very olive complexions. Both men and women. Especially interesting given our heavy Scots-Irish heritage.
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Author: nicknurse1
Surnames:
Classification: queries
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Message Board Post:
Not sure, but the problem could be that Cornstalk was a Shawnee.
I went to the library and found the Christian Family Chronicles by Agnes Pearlman. There are 8 volumes and they are part of a research program she created. You could either pay for each volume or you got a better price is you were a paid member of her group. People sent her copies of their pictures, documents and articles they offered. She then twice a year created the next volume. Inside people can request more information for particular people in their genealogy. I am going to check and see if the program still exists.
Here is what I found so much.
Christian Family Chronicles, Vol.1; Jan 1979; pg 21
West Virginia's Christian Families
"Referred to by their distant kin of the other West Virginia counties as "the red-haired Christians," those who found themselves in McDowell County when it was formed from Tazewell County, Virginia, trace their roots to a different Thomas than the one previously mentioned. Born in Virginia about 1770 and orphaned as a child, this Thomas Christian settled in the early nineteenth century in Tazewell County after moving from northeastern Tennessee-where he lived for awhile with Thomas Mastin, who raised him. Thomas Christian had children by at least two marriages, the first to Louisa Harman and a later one to Mary Altizer, who may have been married previously."
That's all I've found yet. There are other articles in the Christian Family Chronicles, but I haven't found any more about TBC, yet. I will try some more tomorrow.
Charlie
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Author: Kennith_Simpson
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http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.christian/2137.3.1.1.1/mb.ashx
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Great, thanks.
I e-mailed the Washington DC, headquarters of the Cherokee Nation and requested their assistance.
I don't mean to be rude or anything like that, but I am somewhat dissappointed in the lack of information available from the Cherokee Nation. One would think that from all the talk about Chief Cornstalk and his role in the early history of America, the Cherokee Nation would have already researched the matter. After all if Thomas Bailey Christian was in fact a son or grandson of a Cherokee Chief then it would be important to Cherokee History know what happened to Chief Cornstalks family.
Hopefully the Washington office will have more information than simply to refer me to the internet.
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Author: asmcj
Surnames:
Classification: queries
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http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.christian/2137.3.1.1/mb.ashx
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I agree Ken it seems unlikely there would have been a guardianship due to there being no estate to administer.
If the "adoption" documents that J Red Wolf alluded to do exist, my guess is they will be in the form of the children being bonded over to earn a trade. A few Virginia counties had an "orphan court". I wonder if Sumner Co., Tennessee had anything similar.
Also, I have already emailed a man with a Shawnee history website, and asked him whether he knows anything about the orphan story OR about anyone named Standing Deer Bailey. So far I have not heard back. His website is http://bigbearstrading.com/BBD-S-HISTORY_II.php.
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Author: Kennith_Simpson
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Thanks for the information. It is obvious then that none of the children had what we would today call assets,when they became orphans. When Thomas Mastin died he did not leave any thing to any of the 4 children. There is also no record of the children laying any claim to any of Thomas Mastin's estate after his death. There were no estates to protect. There would have been no need for official guardianships. At the age of 13 a child could go to court and choose his own guardian, Hezekiah Whitt was 17 when he became an orphan.
I would like to pose a question to anyone that may be familiar with Indian law or customs. At the death of Chief Cornstalk and his son Elinipsico Ccrnstalk, would the Chief have left any kind of estate, land etc? Clearly the Chief and his son had other children. If the 4 orphans were in fact descendents of Cornstalk would they not have had a right to some of that property. Also if the orphans were the children of the Cornstalk family why didn't Hezekiah Whitt petetion to return to the tribe of his father.
I would like to bring up another thought that is more up to date. Today the NA tribes are strubbling to survive and keep their heritage alive. More and more 21st century man and his ideas are pulling at the surviving members of the NA tribes. The question of the 4 orphans is not a new one it has been asked for over ten years that I know of. Yet we see no where has the Tribe be it Cherokee or Shawanee have tried to adress this matter formaly. I would think that if there was any possibility that well respected Chief such as Cornstalk had any surviving children that could be brought back into the tribe it would be a very welcome action. Also has anyone read anything, anywhere where members of the true survivors of Chief Cornstalks line have ever mentioned the lost children of Cornstalk.
I have been remiss in doing so but perhaps instead of looking into all the books and etc. we should turn to the most important source of information. The Cherokee Tribal Chiefs of today to get their take on the situation.
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Author: asmcj
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Charlie and Ken, I have been researching how the wardship of orphans was handled. Red Wolf gives hints in his posts of the Counties where some records can be found.
This is from the Library of Virginia, http://www.lva.virginia.gov/public/guides/rn6_localrecs.htm#guardianship.
Might help us narrow it down. This is for Virginia, will need to research how things were done in Tennessee.
Guardianship /Fiduciary Books
When an individual acts as a trustee for another, the relationship is described as a fiduciary one. The protection of inherited property (both real and personal) was an important reason for the creation of court records. When minor children survived a parent, a guardian was often appointed to protect the estate for the children. Appointments of guardians are recorded in the county court order books. In the index, the guardian appointments may be listed in the name of the orphan, the name of the guardian, or under the general category "orphans."
A guardian was appointed by the court only if there was an estate to protect. At age thirteen, a child was eligible to go into court and choose his own guardian. Poor orphaned children did not have guardians and were bound out to learn a trade. In the colonial period, this was handled by the vestry of each Anglican parish. After disestablishment, the orphans were bound out by the overseers of the poor for the county. Records of apprenticeship are found in the county court order books.
Periodically guardians were required to bring estate accounts into court. These were often recorded in volumes known as guardians accounts. The estate of a deceased person with minor children required the keeping of records (estate or fiduciary) until it was settled. This occurred when the last minor child married or arrived at legal age. Records of this sort are found in will books, estate account books, and fiduciary or audit books.
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Author: VivianCates50
Surnames: Christian, Carpenter, Cates
Classification: queries
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http://boards.rootsweb.com/surnames.christian/2138/mb.ashx
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Need parents for Sarah _?_ Carpenter b. c. 1813-1815 S. C. d. after February 25, 1883, probably in Edgefield County, South Carolina, or surrounding area. She was married c. 1834 to William Carpenter (b.c. 1808 d. before 1880. They are a couple with several children on the 1850 and 1860 census of Edgefield District, S. C. Lived in the area generally south west of Trenton along the plank road that became Hwy 25. I have death certificates for two of their sons where the respondants gave her maiden name as Sarah Christian. In several trips back to South Carolina over the years, I have collected several Christian estate records, yet have failed to identify my Sarah _?_ Carpenter or any Christian connections for her.
Can anyone cited documentation of where the Christians lived before coming to Edgefield Dist. and where they settled in the area.???
Have much information on Carpenters. Christian connection is still a "stone wall" after many years of research.
Vivian Cates, Alto, Texas 1-936-858-3801 http://www.myinu.net/vcates
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Author: Kennith_Simpson
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>From what I have read you are correct. Grenadier was very helpfull to the white man and was at least once honored as such. I understand though that she had somewhat of a tragic ending. Once the Indian wars were pretty much over and she was no longer of any substantial use to the white man she was pretty much left to deal with life the best she could on her own. As for the McComas link. I am not sure but my grandmother was Sarah McComas 1882-1940 born in Wyoming County West Virginia. She married my grandfather Jerry Mastin Simpson. Her father was Elisha McComas, 1847-1902. Elish McComas was born in Lawerence County, Ohio and died in Wyoming County West Virginia. Elisha McComas was the son of Burrell McComas and Matilda Jones, Burrell, 1825-1905. Burrell was born in Virginia and died in Wyoming County WV. Burrell's father was Elisha McComas, born in Vvirginia and died in Ohio, dates unknown. I have no record of a Katherine McComas. It would be most interesting to!
!
know. There are stories of NA ancestry in the McComas line. I have a friend who is researching the McComas line I will contact her as see if she has any records of a Grenadier,or Katherine McComas.
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Author: nicknurse1
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I did that, they can't get the Holston Genealoghy Society 1991 Annual. I will call the Ft. Waye library.
Charlie
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Author: nicknurse1
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Yeah, it's just down town for me. Parking outside is rare, inside is not to bad, just costs more. And yeah, I just talked to them. Some of the things we need they have, some things they can order with "share" service and some things they can at least tell who may have it and then you contact the other place.
Charlie
PS. I should have added the ha! ha! part with that other message.
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Author: Kennith_Simpson
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Thanks again you can never have too much information. Everything helps in its own way. But I must warn us all that we could get in too deep by trying to do to much research at the same time. Research burn out! It is good having the names though for cross checks and one important thing that having the names can show is a time line.
Ken
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Author: Kennith_Simpson
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Thanks Catherine, I don't think it would be considered a copyright infringement if you copy the important items on a message as long as you credit the pamphlet as your source. since you purchased the pamphlet for genealogical research they can not object and since you are not trying to sell or profit financially from the sharing of the information. copyright laws should not apply.
Ken
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