Hello Lyn,
Thanks for including your first name, it was getting a bit impersonal just
addressing LLM.
Caute non Astute can in my book be interpreted in a variety of words and
"cut yourself off from unwise things" sounds as good as any to me. Another
would be possibly "caution without cunning".
With so many listers monitoring this site, I feel certain that it is just a
matter of time before some more learned types come back with a more
scholarly appreciation!
There are a couple of family narrative accounts concerning individuals going
out to Russia and joining both family and Partnership businesses there. St
Petersburg for example had quite a large population of western European
families engaged in Trade and this was certainly not confined to the Brits
by any means.
Please do not get "excited" by the crest/motto situation as I stress again
that in our case it was totally unofficial and NOT GRANTED by the College of
Heralds but probably "self awarded" in the early 1800's at a guess.
The idea that some ancestors were Knights Templars or whatever, is an
exciting one but to base it on the existence of an anchor is pushing things
just a little too far given that it looks pretty much certain that all
Cat*leys from whatever geographical area within England all started off as
agricultural labourers.
Some of us are fortunate to have a direct line of research back to circa
1600 or thereabouts and as more people manage to piece their history
together as well, the more it confirms that all Catleys were humble sons of
the soil.
The only other evidence that I know of concerning the name that pre-dates
early Parish Records is of course that of the Gilbertine Monastic settlement
in Lincs (founded 1143) and some Muster Rolls from the 14th Century.
Sorry to put a dampener on your lines of thought.
Regards .......... Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: L L Milnes <landairwater(a)xnet.co.nz
To:
<CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2005 2:53
AM
Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
Hi Tim,
My name is Lyn Milnes by the way.
Very interested in your comments.
Using the fourth form method of "take a wild guess based on words like
it",
maybe "Caute non Astute" might mean "cut yourself off
from stupid, unwise
things"? Would be interested to hear from any people who know the true
answer.
Intrigued by your branch's Hull/Felixstowe to Russia trade connection.
Maybe somewhere there is a good narrative account of it?
Or maybe - a wild guess here - the anchor signified some were pirates?
Pirates operated in the Eastern Mediterranean during and after the
Crusades.
Some transformed themselves later into holy warrior societies and
became
quite "establishment", and some still are. I had better not name the
society I am thinking of in particular, as I might offend some on the
List.
LLM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk
To:
<CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 12:30
PM
Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> LLM,
> I too, did not pay the attention to Latin that I should
at school but
from
> what I recall, I think the word would have been pronounced as
Catthe-ley
> rather than Cat-the-ley but neither has, to my mind, any reflection
> whatsoever to wild cats in woods!
> That is precisely why I would ask interested persons if they have any
> access
> to learned Professors of Old English who can explain and confirm that
> Cattheley/Catley/ etc etc does have some connection with "Wild Cat Wood"
> and
> if so, why?
> The anchor in the Cattley Crest:- there are no nautical
types in the
Tree
> concerned and so why this item was chosen is still a mystery to
all of
us,
> unless it was to do with the fact that many members travelled on
a
regular
> basis from the UK to Russia on business from ports such as Hull
and
> Felixstowe via the Baltic. Maybe they got so sick of merchant sailing
> vessels as the only means of getting there that they felt like
sailors?!"
> As for mottoes: Petimus
Altiora I can help you with because it is my
> branches = "we seek high things" but as for Caute non Astute, I know not
> and
> leave it to you or other scholars to come back to me with an answer?
> No symbolism known re Cattheley Priory seal and the
archway. The artwork
> is
> very basic as you would expect and no stonework depicted that I know of.
> So
> again, just as for the Catley name, there is basic research work to be
> done
> on origins of the Seal and the Priory.
> Regards Tim
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: L L Milnes <landairwater(a)xnet.co.nz
> To:
<CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09,
2005 1:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>> I love the spelling
Cattheley, cat-the-ley. Very elegant and reflects
> the
>> wild cats in the wood so nicely. A lovely image.
>
>> More great information Tim, thanks.
>
>> Do you know what the first and third mottoes mean?
They are both new
to
>> me, and I spent a lot of time gazing out the window in Latin
class.
>
>> And there seem to be a lot of anchors. Do people on
the list know if
a
>> sea-going connection?
>
>> Any symbolic significance in the stone archway? For
example, arches
> built
>> with keystones were designed by the Romans, that sort of thing.
>
>> LLM
>
>
>> >>Tim Cattley
wrote:
>
>> ....Having said that, my family crest is depicted on
Ericas web site,
non
>> Granted and certainly from "Trade".
>
>> It is the cat rampant with his front paws on the
crossbar of a vertical
>> anchor. There are three mottos associated with it and it depends to
which
>> sub branch one belongs as to which is used.
>> 1. Caute non Astute
>> 2. J'espere.
>> 3. Petimus Altiora.
>
>> This is the most commonly come across Cattley Crest
version although
>> there
>> is another not associated with our Tree and this comprises an armoured
>> mailed fist holding a scroll with five scallop shells and also use the
> motto
>> J'espere.
>
>> As for the Cattheley Priory seal in the British
Library, I have not
> enquired
>> of them if an IT transmittable image has been made from the sulpher
cast
> but
>> from the B.L. description given to me, it consists of The Virgin seated
>> in
> a
>> stone archway with the infant Jesus on her lap....
>
>
>
>>
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