Well spotted Anthony,
If you are correct and the Chas H Catley death registered 2/4 Lincoln (7a
601) relates to Royal Marine Gunner Catley kia HMS Queen Mary, 31/05/1916
and if the William Catley m Elizabeth Rands connection is also on target,
then memory tells me that we are talking about John of Telford and David of
Nottingham's Catley Family Tree here.
No doubt they both will pick up on this e-mail traffic and confirm one way
or the other?
John? - David?
I think that most people who look at the CWGC casualty lists and identify
Charles' death would assume he was just a "gunner" or, in Army terms, a
private but we have now confirmed that he was a senior Warrant Officer in
the gunnery section on the pride of the 5th Battle Squadron's ships, namely
HMS Queen Mary, which was from Fleet competitions and also proven in battle,
to be the best ship in the Home Fleet as far as gunnery accuracy was
concerned. Fact.
Some of the accolades for this must go to Charles and what with being
mis-Titled by the CWGC as well, someone needs to stand up and give him the
credit he deserves.
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:catley-bounces@rootsweb.com]On
Behalf Of Anthony M. Carter
Sent: 20 August 2008 19:46
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] Charles Catley kia HMS Queen Mary, Jutland 1916.
Tim
Charles H Catley aged 42 death registered June Q 1916 Lincoln 7a 601. This
might help to narrow the list. A possible match is Charles Henry Catley
birth registered Mar Q 1874 Glanford B(rigg) 7a 689. He may be in The Family
of William Catley & Elizabeth Rands of Limber, Lincolnshire; parents Charles
Catley and Maria Skelton. If so he was still living at home in 1901 and was
then a bricklayer. Neither Ancestry nor Findmypast, who use the same source,
has him listed under 1914-18 naval casualties.
Anthony
________________________________
Fra: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com på vegne af Tim Cattley
Sendt: on 20-08-2008 18:55
Til: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Emne: Re: [CATLEY] Charles Catley kia HMS Queen Mary, Jutland 1916.
Hello Anthony,
Thank's for your response, I rather thought/hoped you would.
Following your reply, I have had another look at other web sites covering
the HMS Queen Mary casualty list and they too place Charles in the Officers
section rather than "other ranks" and also found a site on Royal Navy ranks
and pay scales which suggests that you are right in placing a Royal Marine
Gunner in the Warrant Officer category.
So: as far as the CWGC entry for Charles is concerned, I do not think that
the rank of Gunner is sufficient to accurately identify his seniority and
may be we should do something about this?
Knowing the enquiries Section at the CWGC, they would need proof of his rank
first before agreeing to look at any amendment and that would necessitate
the provision of his Record of Service (question:- did WW1 naval personnel
have medal cards as army types did?)with such an application.
Another question springs to mind of course; which Catley Tree does this
Charles belong to?
For some unaccountable reason I have him as age 21 (there is no age entry in
the CWGC list)in my own WW1 Cat*ley Casualty List which, on reflection, can
not be right if he was a Warrant Officer. My guess is that he would have
been around 35 years old.
Can any Lister lay claim to Charles as a tree member and wish to identify
his rank from Military Records?
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:catley-bounces@rootsweb.com]On
Behalf Of Anthony M. Carter
Sent: 20 August 2008 08:45
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] Charles Catley kia HMS Queen Mary, Jutland 1916.
Hi Tim
After surfing the web I feel pretty sure that a Royal Marine Gunner had
a rank equivalent to Warrant Officer in the RN. Thus Charles Catley is
unlikely to have been a commissioned officer. A search of the London
Gazette did not turn up any Catley who would fit the bill, although past
experience tells me that negative results may be due to faulty reading
of an entry by the OTC scanner.
Anthony
-----Original Message-----
From: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:catley-bounces@rootsweb.com]
On Behalf Of Tim Cattley
Sent: 19. august 2008 23:15
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [CATLEY] Charles Catley kia HMS Queen Mary, Jutland 1916.
The Catley Database,
quite correctly has the death of the above on 31/05/1916 killed in
action
when HMS Queen Mary sunk due to enemy action in the opening phase of the
battle of Jutland.
He is classified as a Gunner, Royal Navy.
This is also how Charles is classified in the Naval section for WW1 in
the
Commonwealth War Graves Commission web pages although they do not give
his
unit as HMS Queen Mary, nor that she was part of the 5th Battle Sqn
which
indeed is correct.
However in web sites on HMS Queen Mary (see HMS Queen Mary Jutland
Casualty
List) Charles is listed amongst the 57 officers killed and his Title is
given as:-
Royal Marine Gunner - Charles Catley.
There are also four other names in the Officers section titled Gunners
(but
not Royal Marine)
Amongst the "other ranks" that constituted the 1209 men that were killed
that afternoon, some hold the Title of:-
Gnr - RMA
Pte - RMLI
Sergt-RMLI
I assume that RMLI stands for Royal Marine Light Infantry and the ranks
Pte
and Sergt is obvious and I know that Capital ships of the RN always had
a
detachment of Royal Marines on board and that interestingly usually the
aftermost turret of the main armament was usually crewed by Royal
Marines
rather than Royal Navy personnel (which is probably a handed on and
modified
tradition going back to pre Nelsons days when the Royal Marine
detachment on
H.M. ships crewed the mizzen mast sail handling).
I also assume that Gnr - RMA stands for Gunner Royal Marine Artillery?
In Army terms, when referring to Artillery personnel, the use of the
word
Gunner denotes the same rank as a Private in an Infantry Regiment but I
can
not understand how the Naval rankings work?
What is the difference between a "Royal Marine Gunner" (as applied to
Charles) and a Gnr - RMA?
Is the web site correct in its information?
For those of you disinterested in Military History, the question may
seem
insignificant but I know there are a few of you who like self, are
disposed
towards such matters (as the recent searches into Edward Catley kia WW1
attests)and I ask for assistance in resolving my dilemma.
Was Charles an Officer and if so, why does the CWGC not recognise him as
such?
Help please
Tim
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