See attached from Philip Stephens
The attachment will not work on the rootsweb site – so I will send separately to Liz, Tim,
Andrew and Glynis. If anyone else wants a copy, email me at nigelb(a)bulrush.me.uk.
Nigel
From: Philip Stephens
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 7:26 PM
To: Nigel Butterfield
Subject: Re: Fw: [CATLEY] The James Catleys of Midsomer Norton
Hi Nigel
I have taken a small section of my private tree and published it on Ancestry as a public
tree called "James Catley (Yeoman) Family Tree". I have also downloaded it as a
GEDCOM file which I attach to this email. It only has 48 people on it, but it contains all
James Catley's children, grandchildren, parents and grandparents. It is also
well-sourced. Please feel free to pass it on to whosoever you wish.
I have constructed several family trees involving Catleys in North Somerset. I had hoped
to connect up your tree involving Emery Catley and my Thomas Catley MSN tree.
Unfortunately the evidence simply isn't there. If I were to guess then I would have to
say that Emery was a brother (or possibly a cousin) of Thomas b1701, the husband of Grace.
Two other MSN Catleys at this time were husband and wife Robert and Joan Catley. One died
in 1701, the other in 1703. I don't know how they fit into the picture.
Incidentally do you think that James Catley b1764, the miner, could have been a child of
Joshua Catley and Hannah Webb? Although almost all their children were baptized shortly
after they were born, their youngest, Hannah, born in 1776 was not baptized until 1795.
Perhaps James was not baptized at all.
Regards
Philip Stephens
On 11 May 2011 12:37, Nigel Butterfield <nigelb(a)bulrush.me.uk> wrote:
Hi Philip-
We may have opened up a bit of a hornets nest here.
I attach an email from Liz Cordingley , who is one of the leading Catley listers.
She is asking for confirmation of the Thomas Catley b 1725/ Betty Kelson line - in
particular that their son James ( who died in 1848)and I think you refer to as yeoman, was
married to Mary TOWNSEND and that they were the parents inter alia of Betty Kelson
Catley.
From re reading your submission, I believe that to be the case, but I thought I had
better check.
Incidentally , do you have your Catley data in a descendant report , family tree or
similar format- if you do, do you think you could forward a copy to me and I will pass it
on to whoever is responsible for updating out our tree!!
Many Thanks
Nigel Butterfield
-----Original Message----- From: lizcordingley
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 9:17 PM
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] The James Catleys of Midsomer Norton
Hi Nigel,
I have Betty Kelson the daughter of James and Grandparents Thomas and Betty.
Can you check with Phil if we have the right wife for James and that is Mary
Townsend. The children I have for them where born in Chilcompton so my
fingers are crossed.
Thanks
Liz
----- Original Message ----- From: "Nigel Butterfield"
<nigelb(a)bulrush.me.uk>
To: <catley(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 8:44 PM
Subject: [CATLEY] The James Catleys of Midsomer Norton
Hi- This is aimed at those interested in the Thomas Catley of MSN tree-
You will recall a string of emails a month or so ago on the list
concerning Thomas Catley of MSN his wife Betty Kelson son James Catley
and of marriages to two Marys – the conversation involved amongst others
Liz, Tim, and Andrew Hayes, and made reference to Glynis Brown’s MSM
Trees. I recall there was the hint of some uncertainty over parts of the
Thomas tree.
Anyway- by a complete co-incidence I recently received another email about
the same family on another list, chewton(a)yahoogroups.com , to which I
belong. This email – A tale of Two Catleys , dated 7th May, which appears
below, was from Philip Stephens who is a direct descendant of the Thomas
Catley line through his 2x Great Grandfather Aubrey Catley. His submission
is self explanatory.
I made contact with Philip sending him a copy of Glynis’s Thomas Catley of
MSN tree. I attach our exchange of emails – as you will see from Philip
comments, he feels that there are serious flaws in our tree and has asked
me to pass on his submission. I cannot comment on whether he is correct or
not, apart from anything else it is not the MSN branch I have been
following, but he does seem to have done his research. If he is correct
there is clearly some sorting out to do!!
Regards
Nigel
From: Philip Stephens
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 5:46 PM
To: nigelb(a)bulrush.me.uk
Subject: A Tale of Two Catleys
Hi Nigel
Thanks for your interesting reply and the attached files. The photos are
excellent. My great grandfather, Aubrey William James Catley, was the
contractor for the Wesleyan Methodist Chapel built in 1857. It was in this
building some 30 years later that his son William Aubrey, my grandfather,
met one of the daughters of another great grandfather Rev Henry Parkes!
The Thomas Catley tree underlines the point I was making in my submission.
People have got very confused about the two James Catleys. The miner b1864
has been assigned incorrectly as the son of Thomas Catley and Betty
Kelson. Betty died seven years before this James was born. It is James,
the yeoman from Chilcompton - the one who christened one of his daughters
Betty Kelson Catley (clue there?), who was the son of Thomas and Betty. I
would be obliged if you would forward my submission to those interested in
the badly flawed Thomas Catley of MSN tree. They have some work to do to
sort out the mess.
--
Regards
Philip Stephens
From: Nigel Butterfield
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 1:05 PM
To: philip.stephens3(a)btinternet.com
Subject: Re: [chewton] A Tale of Two Catleys -
Philip – I am sending this off list as I don’t think you can send
attachments via the yahoogroups site.
My grandmother May was a Catley, from the Emery Catley of Midsomer Norton
branch of the family. Your 2x great grandfather Aubrey was, I believe from
a different line – the Thomas Catley of Midsomer Norton tree.
Ordinarily your man Aubrey would be outside my sphere of interest, however
my wife and I were recently staying in Midsomer Norton, and I took the
opportunity of a trip to St John the Baptist’s church, and graveyard,
looking for all things Catley. Sadly there was not a lot that was obvious
except a monument to four Catleys – Ann, Aubrey, Amelia and Aubrey William
James Catley. The first Aubrey died in 1874 aged 72- ie your ancestor. I
attach a copies of a couple of photographs that I took.
I don’t know whether you are a member of the CATLEY Rootsweb list – but if
are not you should sign up -
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hills/maillist.html
In any event , if you have not done so you should visit the website
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hills/index.html
Coincidently around the time we were in Somerset there was a string of
emails on the list relating to the James Catley (s) and two Marys
conundrum that you refer to in your email. Unfortunately I have not kept
the entire conversation but I will separately forward you the string I
still have.
Finally I also attach a copy of the Thomas Catley of Midsomer Norton tree
currently being used by the CATLEY list – this was compiled by lister
Glynis Brown
Yours
Nigel Butterfield
nigelb(a)bulrush.me.uk
PS I hope you don’t mind , but I would like to post your email to the
CATLEY list for those interested in the Thomas Catley of MSN tree –
please advise if this is OK
From: philip393312
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 11:44 AM
To: chewton(a)yahoogroups.com
Subject: [chewton] A Tale of Two Catleys
My great great grandfather is Aubrey Catley (1802-1874). He was born in
Chilcompton and died in Midsomer Norton - population today about 10000. In
the nineteenth century Midsomer Norton was a mining town in the North
Somerset Coalfield. Chilcompton is a village a couple of miles to its
south. From the parish records Aubrey was born on 21 June 1802 and
baptized at St John, Chilcompton four days later, the son of James and
Mary Catley.
It is here that my family research faltered for a while. There is a wealth
of family trees on Ancestry showing James Catley married not to one Mary
but to two. One Mary was born in 1766 and died in 1803 and the other was
born in Pilton, Somerset in 1769. RootsWeb Somerset Coalfield Connections
is an interesting and generally accurate website showing, with references,
the genealogy of families living in and around the Somerset Coalfields. It
appears to confirm the Ancestry trees (see below). Yet questions formed in
my mind. Why does it suggest that James Catley died before 1841 and yet
include him in the 1841 census as a 77-year old coal miner? It is possible
that the first Mary did have 7 children in as many years, but is it likely
that their places of birth would have been (in order): Midsomer Norton,
Chilcompton, Midsomer Norton, Chilcompton, Midsomer Norton, Chilcompton,
Chilcompton. Did the Catleys have two homes? Or were there two James and
Mary Catleys?
Were there marriage records for James and either of the Marys? In that
regard I was fortunate. Although no marriage record is shown in RootsWeb,
I found a marriage record for James Catley and Mary Townsend at St John
the Baptist Church, Pilton on 21 Dec 1795 – the witnesses were John Kelson
snr and John Kelson jnr. The groom's parish was Chilcompton.
Mary is found as a widow in 1841, 1851 and 1861 living in Chilcompton with
her unmarried daughter Martha Jane Catley. Her place of birth was given as
Pilton on the two later census forms. This suggests that the James Catley
who lived at Chilcompton was married only once – to Mary Townsend.
The will of James Catley, made in 1830 and proved at London in 1831, left
his estate in various proportions to his wife Mary and his seven surviving
children: Mary Ann, James Thomas, Robert William, Aubrey, Martha Jane,
Evan Daniel and Betty Kelson. It included his property called Broadway in
Chilcompton and another at Welton, near Midsomer Norton. This James Catley
was a yeoman not a coal miner.
The coal miner James Catley lived in Midsomer Norton and was married to a
Mary who died aged 37 in 1803. By her he had three children: Elizabeth,
George and Francis all baptized at Midsomer Norton. He remarried a few
months after Mary died. His new wife was Martha Smith. By Martha he had
Charles, Hannah, Emma, Samuel and James. In 1841 James was living with
their daughter Emma, by then married to William Carter. His wife Martha
was staying with their son Samuel and his family in Devizes. The coal
miner James Catley, aged 84, was buried at Midsomer Norton on 24 Oct 1848.
Questions remain.
1. Thomas Catley and Betty Kelson were the parents of the yeoman James
Catley. Who were the parents of the coal miner? From the 1841 census he
appears to have been born in Somerset. But there is no record of his
baptism in the Midsomer Norton parish records.
2. What was the maiden name of Mary, the coal miner's first wife? (I have
seen the name Clarke but I can find no corroboration of this.)
3. I have assumed that Charles, who died aged 2 in 1807 and was buried at
Midsomer Norton was the child of James and Martha. Yet the transcription
of the parish records gives the parents' names as James and Mary. All the
yeoman's family appear to have been buried at Chilcompton. So it is
unlikely that Mary Townsend was the mother of Charles. Is the
transcription accurate?
Below I reproduce the erroneous information from RootsWeb:
 
• ID: I04283
• Name: James CATLEY
• Sex: M
• Birth: 1757 in Midsomer Norton, Somerset
• Death: BEF 1841
• Baptism: 24 AUG 1757 Midsomer Norton, Somerset 1
• Note:
The 1841 Census - Midsomer Norton Parish - 2 - Piece 0939 - Folio 33 -
Page 11
JamesCatley77Coal MinerSomerset
WilliamCarter35ClerkSomerset
EmmaCarter31Dress makerSomerset
JosiahCarter 7Somerset
WilliamCarter 1Somerset
MariaElscott21Dress makerSomerset
Father: Thomas CATLEY b: 1725 in Midsomer Norton, Somerset
Mother: Betty KELSON
Marriage 1 MARY b: 1766
Children
1. Elizabeth CATLEY b: 1795 in Midsomer Norton, Somerset
2. Mary Ann CATLEY b: 1796 in Chilcompton, Somerset
3. George CATLEY b: 1798 in Midsomer Norton, Somerset
4. James Thomas CATLEY b: 10 MAY 1798 in Chilcompton, Somerset
5. Francis CATLEY b: 1799 in Midsomer Norton, Somerset
6. Robert William CATLEY b: 1800 in Chilcompton, Somerset
7. Aubrey CATLEY b: 21 JUN 1802 in Chilcompton, Somerset
Marriage 2 MARY b: 1769 in Pilton, Somerset
• Married: AFT 1803
Children
1. Charles CATLEY b: 1805 in Midsomer Norton, Somerset
2. Martha Jane CATLEY b: 1806 in Chilcompton, Somerset
3. Evan Daniel CATLEY b: 5 APR 1807 in Chilcompton, Somerset
4. Betty CATLEY b: 25 JUL 1809 in Chilcompton, Somerset
Sources:
1. Title: D.P.msn.2.1.1
Text: James Catley, son of Thomas and Betty
• ID: I32518
• Name: James CATLEY
• Sex: M
• Birth: 1764
• Death: OCT 1848 in Midsomer Norton, Somerset
• Burial: 24 OCT 1848 Midsomer Norton, Somerset 1
• Note:
The 1841 Census - Midsomer Norton Parish - 2 - Piece 0939 - Folio 33 -
Page 11
JamesCatley77Coal MinerSomerset
WilliamCarter35ClerkSomerset
EmmaCarter31Dress makerSomerset
JosiahCarter 7Somerset
WilliamCarter 1Somerset
MariaElscott21Dress makerSomerset
Ancestry Hints for James CATLEY
2 possible matches found on
Ancestry.com
Marriage 1 Martha SMITH b: 1775
• Married: 24 JUL 1803 in Radstock, Somerset
Children
1. Hannah CATLEY b: 1808 in Midsomer Norton, Somerset
2. Emma CATLEY b: 1810 in Midsomer Norton, Somerset
3. Samuel CATLEY b: 1815 in Midsomer Norton, Somerset
4. James CATLEY b: 1819 in Midsomer Norton, Somerset
Sources:
1. Title: D.P.msn.2.1.10 [Burials 1847-1865]
Page: 6/48
Text: James Catley - Midsomer Norton - aged 84
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Regards
Philip Stephens