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The Catley Database,
quite correctly has the death of the above on 31/05/1916 killed in action
when HMS Queen Mary sunk due to enemy action in the opening phase of the
battle of Jutland.
He is classified as a Gunner, Royal Navy.
This is also how Charles is classified in the Naval section for WW1 in the
Commonwealth War Graves Commission web pages although they do not give his
unit as HMS Queen Mary, nor that she was part of the 5th Battle Sqn which
indeed is correct.
However in web sites on HMS Queen Mary (see HMS Queen Mary Jutland Casualty
List) Charles is listed amongst the 57 officers killed and his Title is
given as:-
Royal Marine Gunner - Charles Catley.
There are also four other names in the Officers section titled Gunners (but
not Royal Marine)
Amongst the "other ranks" that constituted the 1209 men that were killed
that afternoon, some hold the Title of:-
Gnr - RMA
Pte - RMLI
Sergt-RMLI
I assume that RMLI stands for Royal Marine Light Infantry and the ranks Pte
and Sergt is obvious and I know that Capital ships of the RN always had a
detachment of Royal Marines on board and that interestingly usually the
aftermost turret of the main armament was usually crewed by Royal Marines
rather than Royal Navy personnel (which is probably a handed on and modified
tradition going back to pre Nelsons days when the Royal Marine detachment on
H.M. ships crewed the mizzen mast sail handling).
I also assume that Gnr - RMA stands for Gunner Royal Marine Artillery?
In Army terms, when referring to Artillery personnel, the use of the word
Gunner denotes the same rank as a Private in an Infantry Regiment but I can
not understand how the Naval rankings work?
What is the difference between a "Royal Marine Gunner" (as applied to
Charles) and a Gnr - RMA?
Is the web site correct in its information?
For those of you disinterested in Military History, the question may seem
insignificant but I know there are a few of you who like self, are disposed
towards such matters (as the recent searches into Edward Catley kia WW1
attests)and I ask for assistance in resolving my dilemma.
Was Charles an Officer and if so, why does the CWGC not recognise him as
such?
Help please
Tim
Joan+Morris plus Erica
Please look at your message blocking rules, I can not send you e-mails ex my
new address which is via mypostoffice under communicat.
Tim
Two entries for Rev Stephen Reed Cattley:-
1) From Vol 4, July-Dec 1835
Preferments:
Chaplains:-
Rev S.R.Cattley, Chaplain to Lord Scarborough.
2) From Vol 30, July-Dec 1848
Preferments:
Chaplains:-
Rev S.R.Cattley, Chaplain to the Lord Mayor of London.
Cheers
Tim
>From The Gentlemen's Magazine Vol 1V, July-Dec 1835:-
Obituaries:
5th June;
At the house of his uncle G.W. Tireman, in his 20th year, Stainforth Cattley
of Queens College Oxon, the eldest son of the late Thomas Cattley Esq, of
York.
Tim
G'day David,
Thank you for the reference to the web site dealing with the 1662 Act of
Settlement . It seems that both children and adults were subject to Removal
Orders. Therefore without knowing his age we cannot rule out the
possibility that John Catley who was the subject of a 1716 Removal Order for
John Catley from Rushden to Barkway was a child of James Catley and Alice of
Barley and father of the first three children in the Barkway Register of
Baptisms. Of course I have no evidence to support this and therefore it is
also possible that he was other-wise related to James and Alice.
A key to helping to resolve this issue is to find the marriage date and
place of James and Alice.
Regards,
Mick Catley
Morning David and Mick,
So, we are no further forward re John (of Rushden) and still into
speculation territory.
Feel sure that Sharon will be looking for evidence to make some confirmation
one way or the other.
Good luck Sharon.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Catley [mailto:catleym@netspeed.com.au]
Sent: 17 August 2008 02:23
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Cc: Tim Cattley
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] Hertfordshire Visit
G'day David,
Thank you for the reference to the web site dealing with the 1662 Act of
Settlement . It seems that both children and adults were subject to Removal
Orders. Therefore without knowing his age we cannot rule out the
possibility that John Catley who was the subject of a 1716 Removal Order for
John Catley from Rushden to Barkway was a child of James Catley and Alice of
Barley and father of the first three children in the Barkway Register of
Baptisms. Of course I have no evidence to support this and therefore it is
also possible that he was other-wise related to James and Alice.
A key to helping to resolve this issue is to find the marriage date and
place of James and Alice.
Regards,
Mick Catley
______________________________________________
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16:59
>From the Obituaries section of:-
The Gentlemen's Magazine
Vol 220
January-June 1866.
Of fever, at Maen Meer aged 31, Major Henry Chad Cattley, Bengal Staff
Corps, second in command of the 19th Bengal Cavalry.
Third son of Rev Stephen Reed Cattley of Bagthorpe House, Clapham, Surrey.
Henry Chad Cattley was a member of the Stevan Catlay of Normanton (1609)
Tree.
Regards
Tim Cattley
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Cattley [mailto:communicat@mypostoffice.co.uk]
Sent: 16 August 2008 15:38
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Sewer gas explosion at the yard of Anderson & Cattley,
Blackfriars Rd, London
>From the Civil Engineer and Architects Journal 1849:-
Readers of the National Papers will have noted the reporting of a gas
explosion in the Friar Street Sewer at the premesis of Anderson & Cattley in
Blackfriars due to the interconnection of a furnace flue with foul vapours
emanating from it.
It appears from the report in this Journal that the authorities were aware
that the Friar Street sewer was partially blocked to a depth of 4' 6" and
that the collected matter had been giving off explosive and poisonous
hydrogenous gasses for at least two years, preventing workers entering the
sewer to clear it during this time.
The problem was resolved by the use of Gurneys High-Pressure Steam Jet set
connected to a boiler, set up in Anderson & Cattleys works yard, which was
then introduced into the sewer tunnels and in a matter of some minutes only,
the whole length of the sewer under Blackfriars Rd was ventilated
sufficiently to enable workers to start removal of the offending sludge.
Tim
Tim & Mick,
Re Poor Law matters....
Excuse me butting in... Anne Cole of the Lincolnshire FHS has this all wrapped
up in plain English on the Lincolnshire section of GENUKI.
Suggest you have a gander at the following...
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LIN/poorsettlement.html
She also covers removal orders (there's a link within the above address).
Here's part of what she has to say about 'children' and removal orders:
"Removal Orders:
If you were not granted a Settlement Certificate, one of two things could
happen. You might be allowed to stay in the parish if your original parish
("parish of settlement") agreed to pay a fee, usually quarterly, to sustain you
in your new parish. If not, you would receive a Removal Order, sometimes
accompanied by a written pass to the parish of settlement showing the route to
be taken. This would apply even within a city or town which consisted of more
than one parish. Your parish of settlement was obliged to take you back.
Removal Orders would often take a person or a family back to a place of
settlement miles across the country, sometimes to a parish they had only known
briefly as a small child. It was not uncommon for a husband and wife to have
their children taken from them, each being removed to separate scattered
parishes. Children under seven were rarely removed to a different place from
their natural parents as they would have had to gain a settlement of their own
to be removed somewhere other than their father's place of settlement.
Illegitimate babies and children could be removed away from their mothers in the
18th century if the child was not born in the mother's place of settlement (the
settlement of illegitimate children was their place of birth) - but not always.
Sometimes an agreement was made between the overseers of the child's place of
settlement and the overseers of the parish where it was living so that it could
be maintained by the former whilst living in the latter. Children whose mother
had remarried a man with a different place of settlement from their father could
be removed away from their mother as they would retain their father's
settlement, but again agreements could be made between parishes as with
illegitimate children above." Copyright Anne Cole, LFHS.
Cheers,
David Meredith @ Nottingham
From: Tim Cattley
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 11:41 AM
To: Mick Catley ; catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] Hertfordshire Visit
How Do Mick,
I guess we are all in the same boat on this one but thought would ask, just
in case.
Seems to me that this John would probably (?) have had to be an adult (?) to
have a settlement order placed upon him in 1716 to be returned to Barkway?
Were settlement orders placed on children? I don't know.
If that was the case (adult) then his birth would seem to have pre-dated
both James+Alice and also John+Ann's marriages.
There are a few other Barkway "unaccountables" such as Edward b 03/10/1714
son of William+? and Elizabeth+Ann b 23/12/1721 of unknown parents.
I assume that Sharon is hoping that 'settlement order' John ex Rushden is
one and the same John who m Ann and that James/William/John were brothers?.
All very speculative but I expect that Sharon will have a dig for Rushden
Catleys whilst at HALS and also attempt to locate the parishes where the
following Catley marriages took place:-
John & Ann
William & ??
plus who the parents of Elizabeth+Ann were?
Cheers
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Mick Catley [mailto:catleym@netspeed.com.au]
Sent: 16 August 2008 07:18
To: Tim Cattley; catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] Hertfordshire Visit
G'day Tim,
Unfortunately I cannot help with this John Catley. Without knowing his age
it is difficult to assess whether he might have bee a son of James and
Alice. We do not know where or when they were married. The first record we
have of them is the baptism of their child, Edward 8 Nov 1710 at Barley.
Perhaps there were other children born before that date.
My earliest Barkway parish records are baptisms of children of John,
namely:
29 Mar 1719. John, son of John and Ann Catley
2 Sep 1723. Anne, daughter of John Catley
1 Aug 1725. William, son of John Catley
There was also a burial record for John Catley 24 Aug 1725.
Regards,
Mick Catley
OK Sharon,
Glad that "The Charles issue" is your main task, you very obviously
understand the full implications of him probably NOT being the son of James
and Sarah which is what Liz and self want to hear! Enough said!
Rushden, Herts:-
Recall now you mentioning John Catley of that Parish but did not take on
board the year (1716) and so, if he was faced with a settlement order back
to Barkway, his existence takes on greater importance considering that the
earliest date we have for this Tree is James m Alice in Barley 1709. As for
Barkway, we already have Edward born son of William 1714,so taking into
account that John (in Rushden)must (presumably) have been an adult to have
been served a settlement order, it is most likely that he was born in
Barkway circa 1696 or thereabouts.
There are indeed three early Barkway Catleys who have not yet been netted
into the overall Tree who's father is named as John who were born in
1719/1723/1725.......... this you know, we are on the same track here.
So:- agree, this John looks important: maybe Mick in Aus has a grasp on this
line?
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:catley-bounces@rootsweb.com]On
Behalf Of Sharon White
Sent: 14 August 2008 18:44
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] Hertfordshire Visit
Hi Tim
Yes, I completely agree and I have a whole lot of yellow highlight pen all
over this at the very, very top of my list! I will find it hard to contain
myself if it can be proved that Charles was the son of John and Mary, which
is the way I find myself leaning, and then of course to prove John's
parentage too.
While I think of it, has anyone come across a connection with another N
Hertfordshire village of Rushden with the Catley clan? The reason I ask this
is that when I was looking through previous information, I found mention of
a Settlement Order from 1716 of a John Catley from Rushden to Barkway. I'm
wondering if this was the John who we were looking at absolutely ages ago to
see if he was possibly a brother to William and/or James. Children of John
Catley were being christened from after 1716 in Barkway so it would seem to
me that this is him.
Any other views/info on this at all please?
Thanks for the tip about places to eat - we will be looking for somewhere,
and Clavering sounds good to me! Another place to take photos of too!!
Sharon
-----Original Message-----
From: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:catley-bounces@rootsweb.com] On
Behalf Of Tim Cattley
Sent: 14 August 2008 14:04
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] Hertfordshire Visit
Hello Sharon,
As far as I am concerned, the "top priority" has just got to be the research
needed to nail "which Charles" Catley married Susan Bentley in 1849. Was he
a son of James Catley & Sarah (Fox) as Tomplin suggests or was he the son of
John Catley & Mary (Aylott) of Meesden?
As Liz C will attest, much rides on obtaining proof that Charles b 1819 was
the son of John & Sarah and that it was HE who m Susan Bentley. We are also
looking for proof that John was the illig't son of Elizabeth Catley b 1774
via John King?
Feel sure that this subject is somewhere close to the top of your shopping
list already but as you ask, it seems right to mention it!
Regards
Tim
p.s. If you are looking for a decent bite to eat whilst doing the rounds of
Meesden/Barley/Barkway/Anstey etc etc, why not call in to 'The Cricketers
Arms' at Clavering? The village is relevant as you already know (Clavering
Catley branch) and the Cricketers is where Jamie Oliver learned his trade as
it was and still is, his fathers Pub.
-----Original Message-----
From: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:catley-bounces@rootsweb.com]On
Behalf Of Sharon White
Sent: 14 August 2008 12:53
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [CATLEY] Hertfordshire Visit
Hi Tim and all
Under a week to go now until we leave for Hertfordshire and I do seem to
have more to do than I remembered now that I've put my shopping list
together! Anyway, in case there's anything else while I'm in HALS that
springs to mind, now's the time to ask and I'll do my best to find the info.
Sharon
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Hello Sharon,
As far as I am concerned, the "top priority" has just got to be the research
needed to nail "which Charles" Catley married Susan Bentley in 1849. Was he
a son of James Catley & Sarah (Fox) as Tomplin suggests or was he the son of
John Catley & Mary (Aylott) of Meesden?
As Liz C will attest, much rides on obtaining proof that Charles b 1819 was
the son of John & Sarah and that it was HE who m Susan Bentley. We are also
looking for proof that John was the illig't son of Elizabeth Catley b 1774
via John King?
Feel sure that this subject is somewhere close to the top of your shopping
list already but as you ask, it seems right to mention it!
Regards
Tim
p.s. If you are looking for a decent bite to eat whilst doing the rounds of
Meesden/Barley/Barkway/Anstey etc etc, why not call in to 'The Cricketers
Arms' at Clavering? The village is relevant as you already know (Clavering
Catley branch) and the Cricketers is where Jamie Oliver learned his trade as
it was and still is, his fathers Pub.
-----Original Message-----
From: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:catley-bounces@rootsweb.com]On
Behalf Of Sharon White
Sent: 14 August 2008 12:53
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [CATLEY] Hertfordshire Visit
Hi Tim and all
Under a week to go now until we leave for Hertfordshire and I do seem to
have more to do than I remembered now that I've put my shopping list
together! Anyway, in case there's anything else while I'm in HALS that
springs to mind, now's the time to ask and I'll do my best to find the info.
Sharon
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CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
in the subject and the body of the message
______________________________________________
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16:59
Hi Tim and all
Under a week to go now until we leave for Hertfordshire and I do seem to
have more to do than I remembered now that I've put my shopping list
together! Anyway, in case there's anything else while I'm in HALS that
springs to mind, now's the time to ask and I'll do my best to find the info.
Sharon
Listers who are of the Stevan Catlay of Normanton Tree will recognise the
name W.H.A.E.Cattley as the grandson of John Cattley of Shabden
(1785-1862)via his daughter Maria who married the Rev John Aitkin Ewing of
WestMill, Herts in 1855.
Wentworth was a Barrister by profession and in 1894 legally adopted the
surname Cattley to inherit at least part of his grandfathers estate in
Surrey.
Examination of the Cattley Probate Records shows that Wentworth died in 1936
at The East Cornwall Hospital, Bodmin and that probate was granted to his
widow and that his address was Pencarrow, Washaway,Cornwall.
The name Pencarrow rang bells with me and so, whilst on holiday a couple of
weeks ago in Cornwall, I located and visited Pencarrow House and got to
speak to the General Manager and most helpful she was too.
Pencarrow is the seat of the Molesworth-St.Aubyn Family created Baronets by
King William 111 in 1689.
By the 1930's, the head of the family was Sir Hugh Molesworth-St.Aubyn 13th
Baronet and it appears that Wentworth Cattley, in his latter years, lived in
a cottage on the estate but later, with failing eyesite, moved into
Pencarrow House as a friend and guest of Sir Hugh.
I have yet to speak with the Pencarrow Historian but I have visited the
church adjacent to the Estate where many Molesworths are buried in a
prominant family plot in the graveyard and have found Wentworth's resting
place which is located one grave away from Sir Hugh's who died some six
years after Wentworth. Evidently therefore there was a close friendship.
We know very little about Wentworth's career and where he practiced Law,
although The National Archives hold various documents concerning Cornish
property deals that he instigated but this does not explain the friendship
that must have existed between himself and Sir Hugh and whether this was
born out of a business, society, or educational encounter.
Will keep you updated concerning ongoing research in this area.
Regards
Tim
Kay Heath noted...
> Both the groom, and his father have the middle name 'Catley'
> 1948 03 27 TINDALL Eric Catley 49 W Worsted Weaving Overlooker 123 Gladstone
> Street, Bradford Frank Catley Tindall Printer DUNWELL Elsie 34 S Woollen
> Warper 8 West Street, Stanningley William Dunwell Moulder W Robley E A Rayner
> . AP284/D/45 .
Kay,
John C and I are related to the Tindalls - John is closer though, via the
Scarborough connection.
James CATLEY born 1815, Kirmington, LIN married Jane LONGBOTHAM in 1835 at
Scarborough, YKS
Their daughter, Jemima Newmarch CATLEY, born 1845, Scarborough, married Frank
Dennis TINDALL (1867 Q2 - Scarborough RD), he being a sailor.
Known issue at Scarborough for the couple found thus far are:-
c.1869 . Frank Catley TINDALL
c.1870 . Catherine F. TINDALL
c.1877 . Elener (sic) TINDALL
The 1901 census lists Frank Dennis TINDAL onboard the steamer St Oswald in
Wallasey Dock, Birkenhead intended destination Newcastle engaged in 'Foreign
Trade'). Frank was master of the vessel. Jemimah was also onboard under
'household members'. No issue were mentioned.
Frank *Cattley* TINDALL = Edith Jane ALLAN, 1888, Q3, Scarborough RD.
In 1901 this couple and their family were in Bramley, Leeds, (note: In 1891,
Richard CATLEY, a confectioner born Scarborough and cousin to F.C. TINDAL's
mother Jemima, was in Bradford) listed issue...
c.1888 . Frank Allan ....Scarborough
c.1889 . Edith .........Scarborough
c.1891 . John ......Hull
c.1894 . Dorothy.....Bramley
c.1899 . Eric .....Bramley.........(bth: 1898 Q1, Bramley RD ...Eric 'Cattley'
TINDALL
c.1900 . Kellie ....Bramley
Eric was previously married in 1922, Q3, Bradford RD to 'WILCCOCK'
David Meredith @ Nottingham
Dear all,
Ever the sleuth ... I have just noticed a 'Catlow Fell' up in the area near
Ribblesdale.
Bearing in mind that there are very early records (1511) for Catlow and Catley
in the Slaidburn/Gisburn/Bolton-by-Bowland/Waddington area, maybe
this is where we Yks Catleys all started?
kayh