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An additional point is that the PRO indices to registrations, which can
be downloaded from the Ancestry site, may have omissions or
transcription errors. As an example of an apparent error, my GG
grandfather George Goodship is written Gange Goodship. Even the superior
site www.freebmd.org.uk will not accept corrections if their
transcription from the index is correct. As an example of an omission,
the marriage of G grandparents Charles Carter and Elizabeth Milligan 18
March 1870 can not be found even on FreeBMD; yet I found it on line at
Tower Hamlets Register Office and got the certificate there.
Anthony
-----Original Message-----
From: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:catley-bounces@rootsweb.com]
On Behalf Of Tim Cattley
Sent: 9. juni 2008 00:56
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [CATLEY] Ancestry.co. BMD's
Hello everybody,
What do you think of the B/M/D's available via Ancestry?
Are you taking them as verbatim? Probably most of you are.
I have just compared the Cattley data available from this web site
against that which was extracted manually by a member of my Tree (Gerald
Coveney) back in the early 1980's who spent 6 weeks of daily visits to
Kew painstakingly going through every file of the then Public Record
Office Registrations between 1834 and 1970
Quite frankly, I am not impressed with the Ancestry results because they
contain both errors and omissions by comparison with Geralds direct
extracts.
The errors are spelling mistakes of names and the omissions are where
Ancestry do not give a Christain name but Gerald does.
I have no idea how the Catley Records compare but if, (as there are) a
number of differences between the Coveney PRO extracts and the Ancestry
GRO extracts for Cattley, being far fewer in number than the more
commonly found Catley spelling, then by the law of averages, I suggest
that the Catley data could correspondingly, contain more errors?
It is therefore worth bearing this in mind, the fact that Ancestry may
not necessarily be definitive.
Cheers
Timcatt
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hello everybody,
What do you think of the B/M/D's available via Ancestry?
Are you taking them as verbatim? Probably most of you are.
I have just compared the Cattley data available from this web site against that which was extracted manually by a member of my Tree (Gerald Coveney) back in the early 1980's who spent 6 weeks of daily visits to Kew painstakingly going through every file of the then Public Record Office Registrations between 1834 and 1970
Quite frankly, I am not impressed with the Ancestry results because they contain both errors and omissions by comparison with Geralds direct extracts.
The errors are spelling mistakes of names and the omissions are where Ancestry do not give a Christain name but Gerald does.
I have no idea how the Catley Records compare but if, (as there are) a number of differences between the Coveney PRO extracts and the Ancestry GRO extracts for Cattley, being far fewer in number than the more commonly found Catley spelling, then by the law of averages, I suggest that the Catley data could correspondingly, contain more errors?
It is therefore worth bearing this in mind, the fact that Ancestry may not necessarily be definitive.
Cheers
Timcatt
William could have been from anywhere, I guess
kayh
p.s. I'm not sure how far this database goes back..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
To: <catley(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2008 6:57 AM
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] from the National Database of Mining Accidents -
onlytwoCat(t)ley records
> Hi Kay,
>
> My old 1980's PRO Lists show this Davies Catley is probably David Oliver
> Catley born 4/4 1873 Frome Reg Dist died 3/4 1887 Newport, Monmouth Reg
> Dist
> which if correct, makes him a member of the Emery Catley of Somerset
> Norton
> Tree.
>
> I can not identify William however.
>
> Cheers
>
> Timcatt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kay Heath" <hampden(a)bigpond.net.au>
> To: <catley(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 12:21 PM
> Subject: [CATLEY] from the National Database of Mining Accidents - only
> twoCat(t)ley records
>
>
>> Mining Accidents - Davies Catley
>> Name: CATLEY Davies
>> Age: 13
>> Date: 13/07/1887
>> Year: 1887
>> Occupation: Door boy
>> Colliery: Celynen
>> Owner: Newport Abercarn Black Vein Steam Coal Co Ltd
>> Town: Abercarn
>> County: Monmouth
>> Notes: Fall of timber and stone in the main haulage road within 100
> yards of the shaft. Contrary to orders he was riding in with the journey
> of
> trains when one got off the rails at a crossing and knocked out some of
> the
> timber which with the stone fell upon him causing immediate death.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mining Accidents - William Catley
>> Name: CATLEY William (injured)
>> Age: 36
>> Date: 24/07/1911
>> Year: 1911
>> Occupation: Collier
>> Colliery: Llanhilleth
>> Owner: Partridge Jones and Co Ltd
>> Town:
>> County: Monmouth
>> Notes: Fall of roof.
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
> in the subject and the body of the message
>>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
> in the subject and the body of the message
>
Mining Accidents - Davies Catley
Name: CATLEY Davies
Age: 13
Date: 13/07/1887
Year: 1887
Occupation: Door boy
Colliery: Celynen
Owner: Newport Abercarn Black Vein Steam Coal Co Ltd
Town: Abercarn
County: Monmouth
Notes: Fall of timber and stone in the main haulage road within 100 yards of the shaft. Contrary to orders he was riding in with the journey of trains when one got off the rails at a crossing and knocked out some of the timber which with the stone fell upon him causing immediate death.
Mining Accidents - William Catley
Name: CATLEY William (injured)
Age: 36
Date: 24/07/1911
Year: 1911
Occupation: Collier
Colliery: Llanhilleth
Owner: Partridge Jones and Co Ltd
Town:
County: Monmouth
Notes: Fall of roof.
Kay:
My only possible candidate is David Oliver's elder brother William Oliver (b
15 oct 1871). In the 1901 Welsh census William and his family lived in the
parish of Llanhilleth, which is where this accident took place 10 years
later. His occupation is listed in the 1901 census as "Coal Hewer (Below)"
and according to my research did not die until 1935 at the age of 64.
Thanks for finding these reports
Glynis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kay Heath" <hampden(a)bigpond.net.au>
To: <catley(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 4:21 AM
Subject: [CATLEY] from the National Database of Mining Accidents - only
twoCat(t)ley records
> Mining Accidents - Davies Catley
> Name: CATLEY Davies
> Age: 13
> Date: 13/07/1887
> Year: 1887
> Occupation: Door boy
> Colliery: Celynen
> Owner: Newport Abercarn Black Vein Steam Coal Co Ltd
> Town: Abercarn
> County: Monmouth
> Notes: Fall of timber and stone in the main haulage road within 100
> yards of the shaft. Contrary to orders he was riding in with the journey
> of trains when one got off the rails at a crossing and knocked out some of
> the timber which with the stone fell upon him causing immediate death.
>
>
>
> Mining Accidents - William Catley
> Name: CATLEY William (injured)
> Age: 36
> Date: 24/07/1911
> Year: 1911
> Occupation: Collier
> Colliery: Llanhilleth
> Owner: Partridge Jones and Co Ltd
> Town:
> County: Monmouth
> Notes: Fall of roof.
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
> in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Kay & Tim:
I concur with Tim that this is likely my David Oliver Catley who is death is
record at the age of thirteen in 1887 however I don't have a William who
would foot the bill for the other injury you have found. He would have had
to be born about 1875 to be the right age at the time of the accident so I
will go digging and see if I have missed someone!!
I find it hard to believe with all the miners in this branch of the family
that we only have two reports of injury or death.
Glynis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
To: <catley(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] from the National Database of Mining Accidents -
onlytwoCat(t)ley records
> Hi Kay,
>
> My old 1980's PRO Lists show this Davies Catley is probably David Oliver
> Catley born 4/4 1873 Frome Reg Dist died 3/4 1887 Newport, Monmouth Reg
> Dist
> which if correct, makes him a member of the Emery Catley of Somerset
> Norton
> Tree.
>
> I can not identify William however.
>
> Cheers
>
> Timcatt
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kay Heath" <hampden(a)bigpond.net.au>
> To: <catley(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 12:21 PM
> Subject: [CATLEY] from the National Database of Mining Accidents - only
> twoCat(t)ley records
>
>
>> Mining Accidents - Davies Catley
>> Name: CATLEY Davies
>> Age: 13
>> Date: 13/07/1887
>> Year: 1887
>> Occupation: Door boy
>> Colliery: Celynen
>> Owner: Newport Abercarn Black Vein Steam Coal Co Ltd
>> Town: Abercarn
>> County: Monmouth
>> Notes: Fall of timber and stone in the main haulage road within 100
> yards of the shaft. Contrary to orders he was riding in with the journey
> of
> trains when one got off the rails at a crossing and knocked out some of
> the
> timber which with the stone fell upon him causing immediate death.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mining Accidents - William Catley
>> Name: CATLEY William (injured)
>> Age: 36
>> Date: 24/07/1911
>> Year: 1911
>> Occupation: Collier
>> Colliery: Llanhilleth
>> Owner: Partridge Jones and Co Ltd
>> Town:
>> County: Monmouth
>> Notes: Fall of roof.
>>
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
> in the subject and the body of the message
>>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
> in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Tim
Yes, I'm quite happy to do it - I think it's interesting that we have as
plain as anything from Liz's photos the memorial showing their deaths, but
their records, as you say, obviously in this instance at least, appear to be
inaccurate.
It'll be great to see the responses you've received so far and then I'll be
happy to devote some time to pursuing it further.
Sharon
-----Original Message-----
From: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:catley-bounces@rootsweb.com] On
Behalf Of Tim Cattley
Sent: 04 June 2008 00:44
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] WW1 research
Hi Sharon,
Please by all means, do take this task up and I think it right that it
should be conducted by a member of the James Catley of Barley Family Tree
such as yourself.
However please do not do so "on my behalf" as it were. I am merely pointing
out that from what we already know of the Barley Catley Tree, that it would
appear that the CWGC records are both incomplete and possibly inaccurate and
as such, this forms an interesting and different line of research to the
norm.
If you want to take the job on, let me know and I will send you the full
responses that I have had from Maureen Annetts at the CWGC so that you can
get up to speed.
Regards
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon White" <frizzyfiona(a)ntlworld.com>
To: <catley(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] WW1 research
> Hi Tim
> I don't mind having a good look at this for you if you would like me to -
> I'll have a thorough read of your e mail later and get back to you.
> Sharon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:catley-bounces@rootsweb.com] On
> Behalf Of Tim Cattley
> Sent: 03 June 2008 10:13
> To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
> Cc: casualty.enq(a)cwgc.org
> Subject: [CATLEY] WW1 research
>
> Hi All,
>
> Is there anybody out there who would be interested in taking on a little
> research job which concerns the James Catley of Barley (Hertfordshire)
tree
> and reporting back to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission with
supporting
> evidence from the National Archives for individual Records of Service and
> also the Office for National Statistics for Birth Certificates?
>
> This would either suit an Anstey (Barley) Cat*ley tree researcher or a
> general Cat*ley researcher with an interest in WW1 Casualty Records via
the
> C.W.G.C. and associated memorials plus grave headstones.
>
> Situation:-
>
> In a fit of unbridled enthusiasm whilst researching the James Catley of
> Barley tree "our Liz" travelled up to North Herts and did a whistlestop
tour
> of the Barley tree roots areas which included the
> villages/parishes/churches/graveyards of Barley,Barkway and Anstey,
> photographing anything labelled Cat*ley.
>
> Amongst her photos is a WW1 memorial in Barkway which clearly shows the
> names Edward Catley and Charles Catley.
>
> Consultation of the CWGC website for UK WW1 Casualties (killed or died,
ed,
> Tim) gives only one Edward Catley but he served in the Canadian Infantry
and
> was the son of F.J. and E.Catley of Leeds - UK, hardly a Barkway Catley
tree
> member.There is one other E.Catley on the CWGC list but he served in the
> Army Service Corps and died 17/11/1918 and is unlikely to be the Edward
> referred to on the Barkway memorial as I will explain later.
>
> As for Charles Catley:- The CWGC do not list a Charles Catley nor even a
> C.Catley!
>
> However:-
>
> We know from Barley Catley researches that Edward and Charles were infact
> brothers, sons of Edward Catley of Barkway b 07/06/1850 who married
Susannah
> Scripps 15/09/1872 at Barkway and that they were the 4th and 7th children
> from this union being born in 1878 and 1890 respectively and the GRO
births
> List shows them registered in Royston Reg Dist which was correct for
Barley
> births.
>
> Family history indicates that Edward died at home 01/10/1915 as a result
of
> war wounds whilst Charles was killed in action on 04/11/1918.
>
> However!
>
> The Catley family records show that Edward married an Annie Tamar Hicks
> c1898 and after having one child, Annie Olive (GRO Hertford) that they
then
> moved to West Ham in London where they had another 7 children (GRO West
Ham)
> with their last child Winifred Irene being born in the 2/4 of 1915 ie some
> 4-7 months before Edward died. Thus "at home" was probably somewhere
within
> the West Ham Reg Dist.
>
> I have already contacted the CWGC staff asking as to why Edward and
Charles
> Catley do not appear on their Casualty Lists and have even sent to them
one
> of Liz's photographs clearly showing both CATLEY names on the Barkway
> memorial but they insist that they have neither records of casualties nor
> grave locations nor memorial information ....... this is hardly acceptable
> especially as thanks to Liz, the photograph I sent to them clearly
indicates
> their existence!!
>
> Thanks to David M, I have copy information of WW1 deaths taken from
another
> source apart from the CWGC and Lo and Behold, under Edward CATLEY we find
> Edward, born Barkway, enlisted Finsbury, Middlesex, 1220 Private, died of
> wounds, Home 01/10/1915 formerly 12736 Wiltshire Regiment. (Assumption,
that
> Edward probably rejoined the Army enlisting in the Middx Reg't, ed Tim).
>
> Even more interesting is that this same alternative source shows
(surprise,
> surprise!) Charles CATTLEY born Barkway, enlisted Royston Private 9751,
> killed in action 04/11/1918 ............... this compliments the CWGC's
own
> information which lists a Charles CATTLEY, Private 9751, Bedfordshire
Reg't
> killed 04/11/1918 buried Preux-Au-Bois Cemetery.
>
> So, in essence, what we have here are two CATLEY brothers born in Barkway,
> registered in the GRO list of births as CATLEY and recorded on the Barkway
> memorial as CATLEY but neither show on the CWGC site and the Barkway
> memorial is seemingly unknown to the CWGC!
>
> Edward must have a grave somewhere and my guess is that it is probably in
> West Ham but does it have one of those CWGC headstones? If they can not
> identify his burial site for me, then the chances are that his place of
> burial is unrecognised by them?
>
> Charles has somehow got his name modified to CATTLEY from CATLEY as far as
> his Military Records are concerned and has a CWGC grave marked CATTLEY at
> Preux-Au-Bois in France yet features as CATLEY on the Barkway Memorial.
>
> My contact at the CWGC suggests that the only thing to do is some "family"
> research which necessitates obtaining copy birth certificates ex Office of
> National Statistics and copies of Military Record of Service ex National
> Archives to prove things as they do not undertake research themselves and
> will neither modify or add more data to their lists without detailed and
> irrefutable information which is quite understandable.
>
> I feel that both Edward and Charles should feature properly in the CWGC
> Casualty Lists and ask for someone to take on the task.
>
> Any takers please?
>
> Regards
>
> Tim Cattley
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
> in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
in the subject and the body of the message
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Sharon,
Please by all means, do take this task up and I think it right that it
should be conducted by a member of the James Catley of Barley Family Tree
such as yourself.
However please do not do so "on my behalf" as it were. I am merely pointing
out that from what we already know of the Barley Catley Tree, that it would
appear that the CWGC records are both incomplete and possibly inaccurate and
as such, this forms an interesting and different line of research to the
norm.
If you want to take the job on, let me know and I will send you the full
responses that I have had from Maureen Annetts at the CWGC so that you can
get up to speed.
Regards
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon White" <frizzyfiona(a)ntlworld.com>
To: <catley(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] WW1 research
> Hi Tim
> I don't mind having a good look at this for you if you would like me to -
> I'll have a thorough read of your e mail later and get back to you.
> Sharon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:catley-bounces@rootsweb.com] On
> Behalf Of Tim Cattley
> Sent: 03 June 2008 10:13
> To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
> Cc: casualty.enq(a)cwgc.org
> Subject: [CATLEY] WW1 research
>
> Hi All,
>
> Is there anybody out there who would be interested in taking on a little
> research job which concerns the James Catley of Barley (Hertfordshire)
tree
> and reporting back to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission with
supporting
> evidence from the National Archives for individual Records of Service and
> also the Office for National Statistics for Birth Certificates?
>
> This would either suit an Anstey (Barley) Cat*ley tree researcher or a
> general Cat*ley researcher with an interest in WW1 Casualty Records via
the
> C.W.G.C. and associated memorials plus grave headstones.
>
> Situation:-
>
> In a fit of unbridled enthusiasm whilst researching the James Catley of
> Barley tree "our Liz" travelled up to North Herts and did a whistlestop
tour
> of the Barley tree roots areas which included the
> villages/parishes/churches/graveyards of Barley,Barkway and Anstey,
> photographing anything labelled Cat*ley.
>
> Amongst her photos is a WW1 memorial in Barkway which clearly shows the
> names Edward Catley and Charles Catley.
>
> Consultation of the CWGC website for UK WW1 Casualties (killed or died,
ed,
> Tim) gives only one Edward Catley but he served in the Canadian Infantry
and
> was the son of F.J. and E.Catley of Leeds - UK, hardly a Barkway Catley
tree
> member.There is one other E.Catley on the CWGC list but he served in the
> Army Service Corps and died 17/11/1918 and is unlikely to be the Edward
> referred to on the Barkway memorial as I will explain later.
>
> As for Charles Catley:- The CWGC do not list a Charles Catley nor even a
> C.Catley!
>
> However:-
>
> We know from Barley Catley researches that Edward and Charles were infact
> brothers, sons of Edward Catley of Barkway b 07/06/1850 who married
Susannah
> Scripps 15/09/1872 at Barkway and that they were the 4th and 7th children
> from this union being born in 1878 and 1890 respectively and the GRO
births
> List shows them registered in Royston Reg Dist which was correct for
Barley
> births.
>
> Family history indicates that Edward died at home 01/10/1915 as a result
of
> war wounds whilst Charles was killed in action on 04/11/1918.
>
> However!
>
> The Catley family records show that Edward married an Annie Tamar Hicks
> c1898 and after having one child, Annie Olive (GRO Hertford) that they
then
> moved to West Ham in London where they had another 7 children (GRO West
Ham)
> with their last child Winifred Irene being born in the 2/4 of 1915 ie some
> 4-7 months before Edward died. Thus "at home" was probably somewhere
within
> the West Ham Reg Dist.
>
> I have already contacted the CWGC staff asking as to why Edward and
Charles
> Catley do not appear on their Casualty Lists and have even sent to them
one
> of Liz's photographs clearly showing both CATLEY names on the Barkway
> memorial but they insist that they have neither records of casualties nor
> grave locations nor memorial information ....... this is hardly acceptable
> especially as thanks to Liz, the photograph I sent to them clearly
indicates
> their existence!!
>
> Thanks to David M, I have copy information of WW1 deaths taken from
another
> source apart from the CWGC and Lo and Behold, under Edward CATLEY we find
> Edward, born Barkway, enlisted Finsbury, Middlesex, 1220 Private, died of
> wounds, Home 01/10/1915 formerly 12736 Wiltshire Regiment. (Assumption,
that
> Edward probably rejoined the Army enlisting in the Middx Reg't, ed Tim).
>
> Even more interesting is that this same alternative source shows
(surprise,
> surprise!) Charles CATTLEY born Barkway, enlisted Royston Private 9751,
> killed in action 04/11/1918 ............... this compliments the CWGC's
own
> information which lists a Charles CATTLEY, Private 9751, Bedfordshire
Reg't
> killed 04/11/1918 buried Preux-Au-Bois Cemetery.
>
> So, in essence, what we have here are two CATLEY brothers born in Barkway,
> registered in the GRO list of births as CATLEY and recorded on the Barkway
> memorial as CATLEY but neither show on the CWGC site and the Barkway
> memorial is seemingly unknown to the CWGC!
>
> Edward must have a grave somewhere and my guess is that it is probably in
> West Ham but does it have one of those CWGC headstones? If they can not
> identify his burial site for me, then the chances are that his place of
> burial is unrecognised by them?
>
> Charles has somehow got his name modified to CATTLEY from CATLEY as far as
> his Military Records are concerned and has a CWGC grave marked CATTLEY at
> Preux-Au-Bois in France yet features as CATLEY on the Barkway Memorial.
>
> My contact at the CWGC suggests that the only thing to do is some "family"
> research which necessitates obtaining copy birth certificates ex Office of
> National Statistics and copies of Military Record of Service ex National
> Archives to prove things as they do not undertake research themselves and
> will neither modify or add more data to their lists without detailed and
> irrefutable information which is quite understandable.
>
> I feel that both Edward and Charles should feature properly in the CWGC
> Casualty Lists and ask for someone to take on the task.
>
> Any takers please?
>
> Regards
>
> Tim Cattley
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
> in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
in the subject and the body of the message
There is a medal card for E CATLEY regimental number 1220 died 01/10/15,
theatre of war Balkan, but Corps is Leinster, which is an Irish Regiment
also known as the Prince of Wales's Leinster Regiment (Royal Canadians).
There is also a medal card for Charles CATTLEY 2 Bedford Regt. No. 9751
showing he had the Silver Star (wounded) but with no record of death.
Neither are in the WWI Service Records abstracted by Ancestry.
-----Original Message-----
From: catley-bounces(a)rootsweb.com [mailto:catley-bounces@rootsweb.com]
On Behalf Of Tim Cattley
Sent: 3. juni 2008 11:13
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Cc: casualty.enq(a)cwgc.org
Subject: [CATLEY] WW1 research
Hi All,
Is there anybody out there who would be interested in taking on a little
research job which concerns the James Catley of Barley (Hertfordshire)
tree and reporting back to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission with
supporting evidence from the National Archives for individual Records of
Service and also the Office for National Statistics for Birth
Certificates?
This would either suit an Anstey (Barley) Cat*ley tree researcher or a
general Cat*ley researcher with an interest in WW1 Casualty Records via
the C.W.G.C. and associated memorials plus grave headstones.
Situation:-
In a fit of unbridled enthusiasm whilst researching the James Catley of
Barley tree "our Liz" travelled up to North Herts and did a whistlestop
tour of the Barley tree roots areas which included the
villages/parishes/churches/graveyards of Barley,Barkway and Anstey,
photographing anything labelled Cat*ley.
Amongst her photos is a WW1 memorial in Barkway which clearly shows the
names Edward Catley and Charles Catley.
Consultation of the CWGC website for UK WW1 Casualties (killed or died,
ed, Tim) gives only one Edward Catley but he served in the Canadian
Infantry and was the son of F.J. and E.Catley of Leeds - UK, hardly a
Barkway Catley tree member.There is one other E.Catley on the CWGC list
but he served in the Army Service Corps and died 17/11/1918 and is
unlikely to be the Edward referred to on the Barkway memorial as I will
explain later.
As for Charles Catley:- The CWGC do not list a Charles Catley nor even
a C.Catley!
However:-
We know from Barley Catley researches that Edward and Charles were
infact brothers, sons of Edward Catley of Barkway b 07/06/1850 who
married Susannah Scripps 15/09/1872 at Barkway and that they were the
4th and 7th children from this union being born in 1878 and 1890
respectively and the GRO births List shows them registered in Royston
Reg Dist which was correct for Barley births.
Family history indicates that Edward died at home 01/10/1915 as a result
of war wounds whilst Charles was killed in action on 04/11/1918.
However!
The Catley family records show that Edward married an Annie Tamar Hicks
c1898 and after having one child, Annie Olive (GRO Hertford) that they
then moved to West Ham in London where they had another 7 children (GRO
West Ham) with their last child Winifred Irene being born in the 2/4 of
1915 ie some 4-7 months before Edward died. Thus "at home" was probably
somewhere within the West Ham Reg Dist.
I have already contacted the CWGC staff asking as to why Edward and
Charles Catley do not appear on their Casualty Lists and have even sent
to them one of Liz's photographs clearly showing both CATLEY names on
the Barkway memorial but they insist that they have neither records of
casualties nor grave locations nor memorial information ....... this is
hardly acceptable especially as thanks to Liz, the photograph I sent to
them clearly indicates their existence!!
Thanks to David M, I have copy information of WW1 deaths taken from
another source apart from the CWGC and Lo and Behold, under Edward
CATLEY we find Edward, born Barkway, enlisted Finsbury, Middlesex, 1220
Private, died of wounds, Home 01/10/1915 formerly 12736 Wiltshire
Regiment. (Assumption, that Edward probably rejoined the Army enlisting
in the Middx Reg't, ed Tim).
Even more interesting is that this same alternative source shows
(surprise, surprise!) Charles CATTLEY born Barkway, enlisted Royston
Private 9751, killed in action 04/11/1918 ............... this
compliments the CWGC's own information which lists a Charles CATTLEY,
Private 9751, Bedfordshire Reg't killed 04/11/1918 buried Preux-Au-Bois
Cemetery.
So, in essence, what we have here are two CATLEY brothers born in
Barkway, registered in the GRO list of births as CATLEY and recorded on
the Barkway memorial as CATLEY but neither show on the CWGC site and the
Barkway memorial is seemingly unknown to the CWGC!
Edward must have a grave somewhere and my guess is that it is probably
in West Ham but does it have one of those CWGC headstones? If they can
not identify his burial site for me, then the chances are that his place
of burial is unrecognised by them?
Charles has somehow got his name modified to CATTLEY from CATLEY as far
as his Military Records are concerned and has a CWGC grave marked
CATTLEY at Preux-Au-Bois in France yet features as CATLEY on the Barkway
Memorial.
My contact at the CWGC suggests that the only thing to do is some
"family" research which necessitates obtaining copy birth certificates
ex Office of National Statistics and copies of Military Record of
Service ex National Archives to prove things as they do not undertake
research themselves and will neither modify or add more data to their
lists without detailed and irrefutable information which is quite
understandable.
I feel that both Edward and Charles should feature properly in the CWGC
Casualty Lists and ask for someone to take on the task.
Any takers please?
Regards
Tim Cattley
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Ancestry appears to have the Medal Card for Edward
Pte. 1220 E CATLEY, Leinster Corps - fought in the Balkans, died 1-10-1915
Note: 'At home' - in British Army terms - could mean on the 'UK mainland' as opposed to actual home address!
David Meredith @ Nottingham
From: Tim Cattley
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 10:12 AM
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Cc: casualty.enq(a)cwgc.org
Subject: [CATLEY] WW1 research
Hi All,
Is there anybody out there who would be interested in taking on a little research job which concerns the James Catley of Barley (Hertfordshire) tree and reporting back to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission with supporting evidence from the National Archives for individual Records of Service and also the Office for National Statistics for Birth Certificates?
This would either suit an Anstey (Barley) Cat*ley tree researcher or a general Cat*ley researcher with an interest in WW1 Casualty Records via the C.W.G.C. and associated memorials plus grave headstones.
Situation:-
In a fit of unbridled enthusiasm whilst researching the James Catley of Barley tree "our Liz" travelled up to North Herts and did a whistlestop tour of the Barley tree roots areas which included the villages/parishes/churches/graveyards of Barley,Barkway and Anstey, photographing anything labelled Cat*ley.
Amongst her photos is a WW1 memorial in Barkway which clearly shows the names Edward Catley and Charles Catley.
Consultation of the CWGC website for UK WW1 Casualties (killed or died, ed, Tim) gives only one Edward Catley but he served in the Canadian Infantry and was the son of F.J. and E.Catley of Leeds - UK, hardly a Barkway Catley tree member.There is one other E.Catley on the CWGC list but he served in the Army Service Corps and died 17/11/1918 and is unlikely to be the Edward referred to on the Barkway memorial as I will explain later.
As for Charles Catley:- The CWGC do not list a Charles Catley nor even a C.Catley!
However:-
We know from Barley Catley researches that Edward and Charles were infact brothers, sons of Edward Catley of Barkway b 07/06/1850 who married Susannah Scripps 15/09/1872 at Barkway and that they were the 4th and 7th children from this union being born in 1878 and 1890 respectively and the GRO births List shows them registered in Royston Reg Dist which was correct for Barley births.
Family history indicates that Edward died at home 01/10/1915 as a result of war wounds whilst Charles was killed in action on 04/11/1918.
However!
The Catley family records show that Edward married an Annie Tamar Hicks c1898 and after having one child, Annie Olive (GRO Hertford) that they then moved to West Ham in London where they had another 7 children (GRO West Ham) with their last child Winifred Irene being born in the 2/4 of 1915 ie some 4-7 months before Edward died. Thus "at home" was probably somewhere within the West Ham Reg Dist.
I have already contacted the CWGC staff asking as to why Edward and Charles Catley do not appear on their Casualty Lists and have even sent to them one of Liz's photographs clearly showing both CATLEY names on the Barkway memorial but they insist that they have neither records of casualties nor grave locations nor memorial information ....... this is hardly acceptable especially as thanks to Liz, the photograph I sent to them clearly indicates their existence!!
Thanks to David M, I have copy information of WW1 deaths taken from another source apart from the CWGC and Lo and Behold, under Edward CATLEY we find Edward, born Barkway, enlisted Finsbury, Middlesex, 1220 Private, died of wounds, Home 01/10/1915 formerly 12736 Wiltshire Regiment. (Assumption, that Edward probably rejoined the Army enlisting in the Middx Reg't, ed Tim).
Even more interesting is that this same alternative source shows (surprise, surprise!) Charles CATTLEY born Barkway, enlisted Royston Private 9751, killed in action 04/11/1918 ............... this compliments the CWGC's own information which lists a Charles CATTLEY, Private 9751, Bedfordshire Reg't killed 04/11/1918 buried Preux-Au-Bois Cemetery.
So, in essence, what we have here are two CATLEY brothers born in Barkway, registered in the GRO list of births as CATLEY and recorded on the Barkway memorial as CATLEY but neither show on the CWGC site and the Barkway memorial is seemingly unknown to the CWGC!
Edward must have a grave somewhere and my guess is that it is probably in West Ham but does it have one of those CWGC headstones? If they can not identify his burial site for me, then the chances are that his place of burial is unrecognised by them?
Charles has somehow got his name modified to CATTLEY from CATLEY as far as his Military Records are concerned and has a CWGC grave marked CATTLEY at Preux-Au-Bois in France yet features as CATLEY on the Barkway Memorial.
My contact at the CWGC suggests that the only thing to do is some "family" research which necessitates obtaining copy birth certificates ex Office of National Statistics and copies of Military Record of Service ex National Archives to prove things as they do not undertake research themselves and will neither modify or add more data to their lists without detailed and irrefutable information which is quite understandable.
I feel that both Edward and Charles should feature properly in the CWGC Casualty Lists and ask for someone to take on the task.
Any takers please?
Regards
Tim Cattley
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi All,
Is there anybody out there who would be interested in taking on a little research job which concerns the James Catley of Barley (Hertfordshire) tree and reporting back to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission with supporting evidence from the National Archives for individual Records of Service and also the Office for National Statistics for Birth Certificates?
This would either suit an Anstey (Barley) Cat*ley tree researcher or a general Cat*ley researcher with an interest in WW1 Casualty Records via the C.W.G.C. and associated memorials plus grave headstones.
Situation:-
In a fit of unbridled enthusiasm whilst researching the James Catley of Barley tree "our Liz" travelled up to North Herts and did a whistlestop tour of the Barley tree roots areas which included the villages/parishes/churches/graveyards of Barley,Barkway and Anstey, photographing anything labelled Cat*ley.
Amongst her photos is a WW1 memorial in Barkway which clearly shows the names Edward Catley and Charles Catley.
Consultation of the CWGC website for UK WW1 Casualties (killed or died, ed, Tim) gives only one Edward Catley but he served in the Canadian Infantry and was the son of F.J. and E.Catley of Leeds - UK, hardly a Barkway Catley tree member.There is one other E.Catley on the CWGC list but he served in the Army Service Corps and died 17/11/1918 and is unlikely to be the Edward referred to on the Barkway memorial as I will explain later.
As for Charles Catley:- The CWGC do not list a Charles Catley nor even a C.Catley!
However:-
We know from Barley Catley researches that Edward and Charles were infact brothers, sons of Edward Catley of Barkway b 07/06/1850 who married Susannah Scripps 15/09/1872 at Barkway and that they were the 4th and 7th children from this union being born in 1878 and 1890 respectively and the GRO births List shows them registered in Royston Reg Dist which was correct for Barley births.
Family history indicates that Edward died at home 01/10/1915 as a result of war wounds whilst Charles was killed in action on 04/11/1918.
However!
The Catley family records show that Edward married an Annie Tamar Hicks c1898 and after having one child, Annie Olive (GRO Hertford) that they then moved to West Ham in London where they had another 7 children (GRO West Ham) with their last child Winifred Irene being born in the 2/4 of 1915 ie some 4-7 months before Edward died. Thus "at home" was probably somewhere within the West Ham Reg Dist.
I have already contacted the CWGC staff asking as to why Edward and Charles Catley do not appear on their Casualty Lists and have even sent to them one of Liz's photographs clearly showing both CATLEY names on the Barkway memorial but they insist that they have neither records of casualties nor grave locations nor memorial information ....... this is hardly acceptable especially as thanks to Liz, the photograph I sent to them clearly indicates their existence!!
Thanks to David M, I have copy information of WW1 deaths taken from another source apart from the CWGC and Lo and Behold, under Edward CATLEY we find Edward, born Barkway, enlisted Finsbury, Middlesex, 1220 Private, died of wounds, Home 01/10/1915 formerly 12736 Wiltshire Regiment. (Assumption, that Edward probably rejoined the Army enlisting in the Middx Reg't, ed Tim).
Even more interesting is that this same alternative source shows (surprise, surprise!) Charles CATTLEY born Barkway, enlisted Royston Private 9751, killed in action 04/11/1918 ............... this compliments the CWGC's own information which lists a Charles CATTLEY, Private 9751, Bedfordshire Reg't killed 04/11/1918 buried Preux-Au-Bois Cemetery.
So, in essence, what we have here are two CATLEY brothers born in Barkway, registered in the GRO list of births as CATLEY and recorded on the Barkway memorial as CATLEY but neither show on the CWGC site and the Barkway memorial is seemingly unknown to the CWGC!
Edward must have a grave somewhere and my guess is that it is probably in West Ham but does it have one of those CWGC headstones? If they can not identify his burial site for me, then the chances are that his place of burial is unrecognised by them?
Charles has somehow got his name modified to CATTLEY from CATLEY as far as his Military Records are concerned and has a CWGC grave marked CATTLEY at Preux-Au-Bois in France yet features as CATLEY on the Barkway Memorial.
My contact at the CWGC suggests that the only thing to do is some "family" research which necessitates obtaining copy birth certificates ex Office of National Statistics and copies of Military Record of Service ex National Archives to prove things as they do not undertake research themselves and will neither modify or add more data to their lists without detailed and irrefutable information which is quite understandable.
I feel that both Edward and Charles should feature properly in the CWGC Casualty Lists and ask for someone to take on the task.
Any takers please?
Regards
Tim Cattley
Hi Tim,
I have two questions for you. First...did you receive my corrections
on the list of our PA Cattley's? As I said..I have no idea who Hagar was. Also, I am confused as to how we are related. Apparently it was stated when I was not on the computer and I only know that you said we were and we are distant cousins. As we thought for some time. Can you clear this up for me? Or maybe Kay can answer. ? We are selling the family home and the estate will be settled soon I hope. It is a trying and sad time for our memories. I am sure my brother Lou would be very pleased tho. I am sure he would have wanted Don or John and I to come to the reunion and I enjoyed the emails from those who went to it.
Hope this finds you well.
Take care,
Marge Cattley, you cuz. from PA
=====================
From: L BELLERBY <l.bellerby(a)btinternet.com>
Date: 2008/05/31 Sat PM 04:03:06 CDT
To: catley(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CATLEY] Cattley on e-bay
Hi Tim
Thanks for that, I was interested to which tree he belonged to.
Elaine
Tim Cattley <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
The Cattley post cards crop up on e-bay quite frequently but more often than
not, the artist is incorrectly identified by use of the wrong initials as
P.R.Cattley.
The person concerned was Alexander Robert Cattley (1885-1955) who was an
illustrative artist for the News Chronicle newspaper.
As an aside to his regular employment, he did a series of 1914-1918
"military humour" post cards and it is an example of one of these that
Elaine refers to.
Alexander was also an authority on British Military Uniforms and from time
to time other examples of his art crop up in the form of card sets of
illustrations of militia during the American War of Independence.
None of his work will mean much to any of you unless, like Alexander Robert
Cattley, you happen to be a member of the Stevan Catlay of Normanton
(Yorkshire) Tree.
Regards
Tim Cattley.
----- Original Message -----
From: "L BELLERBY"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: [CATLEY] Cattley on e-bay
> Hi All,
>
> On e-bay there is a WW1 postcard from Peterborough 1915 signed by a P R
Cattley.
>
> Elaine
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes
in the subject and the body of the message
>
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CATLEY-request(a)rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message