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Lynda,
It is surely most improbable that early inhabitants of Fowlmere would want
to live next to a Foul Mere, let alone call it as such?
The interpretation of these words suggests a lake, or body of water blocked
or choked with foreign matter which may be stinking and polluted.
The settlement is recorded in The Doomsday Book (1069?) as Fuglemaere which
translates as waterbird lake from the French/Norman language. This today is
interpreted as bird lake. (Fowl=bird, mere=lake)
Fowlmere certainly has still water courses with reeds and water fowl and in
the 11th Century before the draining of East Anglia took place to any
extent, the areas of water and wildfowl nearby would have been much bigger
and thus a major feature.
Regards Tim C.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Lyndapowers04(a)aol.com>
To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [CAT...] James Catley, Hertfordshire
> Fowlmere just in case you would like to know was formerley Foul Mire -
> obvious to some I realise but have found out loads of interesting stuff
since
> purchasing The Victoria History of the County of Cambridge and the Isle
of Ely
> Volume IX - Since establishing I am a Cambridge Catley descending from
William
> Catley who was born in Melbourn but left there to go to the East End and
> marry Caroline Eliza Hayden of Thriplow Cambridge. Caroline returned to
> Cambridge after the death of my gt grandfather with her two youngest sons
one of who
> was Robert Charles Catley who married my grandmather Martha Covill born
in
> Chesterton.
>
> I have sent this information because I think Mick and I would be related
as
> we both descend from Cambridge/Herts Catley's. One of my Gt Uncles
emigrated
> to Australia at the end of the first WW and I am trying to trace him as
my
> older Catley cousins saw a couple of them in WW2 and then all trace has
been
> lost.
>
> Lynda Powers
> 07808 956894
> 01582 490918
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find
> marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
>
G'day Linda,
Thank you for the information on your Melbourn Catleys. I have the
following three William Catleys christenened at Melbourn:
William Catley, c. 28 May 1837, son of James Catley and Mary
William Catley, c. 18 Mar 1841, son of James Catley and Mary
William Catley, b. 18 Mar 1811, c. 20 Aug 1812, son of Joseph Catley and
Elizabeth.
The only William Catley and Caroline marriage I have is a record of them as
parents of William Joseph Catley, c. 29 Dec 1839 at St James, Westminster,
London.
Do any of these fit into your Melbourn connections?
If you want some assistance in tracing your gt. uncle's family in
Australia, I might be able to assist if you can send me details of his
name, date of arrival in Australia and where he lived.
At 06:44 AM 9/03/2005, you wrote:
>Fowlmere just in case you would like to know was formerley Foul Mire -
>
>
>==============================
Regards,
Mick Catley
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How do Mick,
Back in 1970 when I married, my wife and self moved up to Hauxton in Cambs
because we could simply not afford the silly prices on freehold properties
in the "Home Counties". This was but a few miles from Sawston and little did
I know at the time that I was so close to a seat of Cat*ley history!
On my daily journey to work, I went past Fowlmere but just like Sawston, I
did not think to do any research on Cat*ley.
At that time and like many other Cat*leys, I thought that my Name/Tree was
unique and did not even bother to look for others outside it. If only I
knew then what I know now!
I too have the Dave Barker Sawston extracts (somewhere) but elsewhere I am
shure I have extras that predate 1724 but I will have to search for them and
see if I am mistaken.
Best wishes Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: Mick Catley <catleym(a)netspeed.com.au>
To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: [CAT...] James Catley, Hertfordshire
> G'day Tim,
>
> Thank you for the information on Fowlmere. I think the error was in the
> original transcription which I copied from an LDS microfiche as there were
> two entries, both recorded as Powlmere. It would be a simple error to
> make as "P" closely resembles"F".
>
> Last year, Dave Barker kindly sent me the Sawston Catley records extracted
> from Bircham, Rev. Ronald - "Sawston Surnames, St Mary the Virgin,
> Sawston, Cambridgeshire". The earliest Catley record is John Catley
> married to Sarah Townsend 21 Jun 1724.
>
> At 10:41 AM 6/03/2005, Tim Cattley wrote:
> >G'day Mick,
> >
> >I have also got the 1594 Catly Eln and Wm Adam, Bartlow, Cambs record but
as
> >for 1684 Catley Jane and Rowland Street:-
> >
> >Do not know if this was a slip of your finger on the qwerty board or not
but
> >for Powlmere .... please insert Fowlmere instead.
> >
>
> Regards,
>
> Mick Catley
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more.
> Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more:
http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
>
Fowlmere just in case you would like to know was formerley Foul Mire -
obvious to some I realise but have found out loads of interesting stuff since
purchasing The Victoria History of the County of Cambridge and the Isle of Ely
Volume IX - Since establishing I am a Cambridge Catley descending from William
Catley who was born in Melbourn but left there to go to the East End and
marry Caroline Eliza Hayden of Thriplow Cambridge. Caroline returned to
Cambridge after the death of my gt grandfather with her two youngest sons one of who
was Robert Charles Catley who married my grandmather Martha Covill born in
Chesterton.
I have sent this information because I think Mick and I would be related as
we both descend from Cambridge/Herts Catley's. One of my Gt Uncles emigrated
to Australia at the end of the first WW and I am trying to trace him as my
older Catley cousins saw a couple of them in WW2 and then all trace has been
lost.
Lynda Powers
07808 956894
01582 490918
I should made it clearer that the Cat*ley name change came after they
arrived in NZ.
My understanding that this was a deliberate name change.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Celia Bloor" <cvb(a)kinseycottages.org.uk>
To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 11:26 PM
Subject: RE: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> So far my Cateleys don't link up with New Zealand, the IGI treat Cateley
and
> Kateley separately from Catley probably because it sounds different so if
> there is a change which sounds the same it won't split you from the main
> branch as drastically?
> People are so silly about spelling, insisting they can't be related
because
> its spelt differently.....
> Celia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: prvanov(a)xtra.co.nz [mailto:prvanov@xtra.co.nz]
> Sent: 07 March 2005 00:51
> To: CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
>
> Hi there All,
> Our branch of the NZ Catleys as descended from Zacariah Catley and Sarah
> Meadows arriving here in 1830, now has a lateral spelt "Cateley". The
story
> goes that Jane Appleyard, the new wife Arthur Ernest, did'nt like the
> spelling so had it changed. I would be interested if there are any
> descendents of this line who could verify/modify this story.
> Regards
> Jocelyn
> Ps Having the name "Prvanov" sorts out people who listen...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "L L Milnes (by way of Erica Hills <erica(a)hillsperth.com>)"
> <landairwater(a)xnet.co.nz>
> To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 4:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
>
> > Hi Tim and list,
> >
> > Your thoughts remind me how orderly English society is and was. How
> could
> > someone English do such a thing?
> >
> > But I think social mobility may have been a factor, because name
> > spelling changes were so easy and usual in those days, and it wouldn't
> have been a
> > big deal. I understand that word spellings were not fixed at all until
> > quite late in the 19th century when dictionaries were becoming known.
> >
> > I note all these (socially disorderly) name-changing-as-social-mobility
> > opinions are now coming from the antipodes: Aussie and NZ. Including
> mine.
> >
> > Arguably these were more flexible, adaptable people, less bound by
> tradition.
> >
> > In the antipodes there might also have been more social reasons to try
to
> > be a bit different. Some sent to Australia were convicts. Some sent
to
> > New Zealand were "remittance men". Some went to the South Pacific to
> > re-invent themselves and make a fresh start. Quite a lot of people
even
> > today adopt a new name as part of this process.
> >
> > "Remittance men" had made themselves such a nuisance in polite English
> > society (gambling debts, family scandals, fights) that their affluent
> > families made them go and live in the colonies. The arrangement was
> that,
> > provided they stayed away from London, their family would send a
periodic
> > monetary "remittance" to support them. This apparently succeeded in
> > keeping them away from polite society.
> >
> > Some migrants to New Zealand and Australia were very poor uneducated
> people
> > who could barely spell. In these conditions, it might be easy to put
on
> a
> > bit of dash by pretending to have a fancy name. A woman in the city I
> > grew up in, with three wartime children of diverse parentage, adopted
> > the surname of a fancy American country club.
> >
> > Under these circumstances I think some social mobility name-changing
> > might well have occurred.
> >
> > There were also name spelling changes as subtle indicators of group
> > membership. This sometimes occurred where a group was trying to be
> > inconspicuous. I think there was a tendency for English Catholic
> families
> > to use the letter Y in their names where there might more commonly be
> > an
> I.
> > Smith-Smythe. Sidney-Sydney.
> >
> > LLM
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Cattley"
> > <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
> > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >
> >
> > >I understand what you say Kay but I am not convinced that many
> > >Cat(t)ley families were necessarily aware of the existence of others
> > >outside their
> own
> > >clan and if that was indeed the case, then none would necessarily
> > >think
> of a
> > >name change in order to emulate "prosperity".
> > >
> > >Have made contact with a good number of members of different Trees
> > >over
> the
> > >years and many tell a very similar family story in that inter family
> fudes
> > >decided various branches to make a name spelling adjustment to sever
> > >connections. A member of one such family even said that the family
> > >story
> in
> > >his case was that a name change was made because one lot were sheep
> > >rustling! I have never thought of any such story as very likely?
> > >
> > >Before the introduction of the Internet and before that, of telephone
> > >directories, it was surely very difficult for people to access any
> > >form
> of
> > >public record in an attempt to check out Nationally just how many
> > >other Cat(t)ley families may have existed. Suspect this applied very
> > >much so
> to
> > >the Hertfordshire/Cambridgshire/Gloucestershire/Lincolnshire/Essex
> families
> > >plus probably those in Greater London as well.
> > >
> > >Tim
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: William N H Heath <hampden(a)bigpond.net.au>
> > >To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > >Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 4:15 AM
> > >Subject: Fw: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> > >
> > >
> > >>I think Tim, that as well as pure clerical error,
> > >> we shouldn't underestimate the desire of people to make their
> > >>names more 'up-market'....we are unaccustomed to being able to
> > >>change so much as a letter in the spelling of our names without some
> sort
> > >of
> > >>official record of the change etc.. but in those days who cared how
> > >>you spelt it? or how many times you had changed it.
> > >>
> > >>'Cattley' may have been seen as either being in, or looking as if
> > >>you belonged,
> > >> to the prosperous side of the family!
> > >>
> > >>One of my ancestors was born 'Hudy', and when at 14 he went to do
> > >>his apprenticeship (1803), he became 'Hewdey' - and that spelling
> > >>stuck from then on.
> > >>That's a dramatic change in 14 years.
> > >>kayh
> > >>
> > >>p.s. on 1837 online, they have got the 1861 census, searchable, and
> > >>only
> > >the
> > >>greater London area done at this time, but still terrific.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
> > >>To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > >>Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:15 AM
> > >>Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >I have often wondered how it is that quite a few Catley names have
> > >> >got changed to Cattley over the past 200 years or so and have
> > >> >thought it
> > odd
> > >> > that "a clerical error" should result in the inclusion of an
> > >> > extra T
> as
> > >it
> > >> > does not make sense to me.
> > >> >
> > >> > On the other hand, nor can I understand why a literate family
> > >> > would necessarily wish to make such an alteration themselves?
> > >> >
> > >> > However, possibly you have inadvertently hit on an answer Liz?
> > >> >
> > >> > It is quite within the bounds of possibility that Catley could be
> > >misread
> > >> > as
> > >> > Cattey and then a second clerical type, knowing that the name has
> > >> > a phonetic L pronunciation in it, adds this letter to "get the
> > >> > sound correct" >
> hence
> > >> > Cattley.
> > >> >
> > >> > The only other explanation I can think of is via The Bishops >
> Transcripts
> > >> > for
> > >> > the Gilbertine Priory of Catley built circa 1143.
> > >> >
> > >> > If you study them you will note that the left hand page is
> > >> > printed in
> > >its
> > >> > original Latin form whilst on the right, is the English
translation.
> > In
> > >> > most cases the Latin name is spelt as Catthley and the English
> > >translation
> > >> > as Catley. I do not know when the Transcripts were first
> > >> > published
> from
> > >> > the
> > >> > original vellum but at a guess I would say in the early 1800's
> > >> > and so maybe some literate Latin reading Catleys at that time,
> > >> > decided to take on
> > the
> > >> > Latin form of spelling but drop the H?
> > >> >
> > >> > As most already know, the name Cat(t)ley is supposedly taken from
> > >> > the
> > >Old
> > >> > English meaning for Wild Cat Wood. Presumably old English pre
> > >> > dates
> > >Latin
> > >> > as
> > >> > a mother tongue but is there written evidence? How is the meaning
> wild
> > >cat
> > >> > wood deduced?
> > >> >
> > >> > Did the Monks at the Priory who wrote up the Transcripts thus >
> "Latinise"
> > >> > an
> > >> > old English place name?
> > >> >
> > >> > Has anyone access to learned Professors of early English Language?
> Can
> > >> > any
> > >> > more information be gained that would maybe take us further
> > >> > foward
> into
> > >> > understanding the origins of the name?
> > >> >
> > >> > Any thoughts anybody?
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards Tim.
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: liz cordingley <lizcordingley(a)blueyonder.co.uk>
> > >> > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > >> > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:02 AM
> > >> > Subject: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> Hi All,
> > >> >> I have just come back from Wales after spending a couple of
> > >> >> pleasant
> > >days
> > >> > there. I discovered a couple of graves and some interesting info
> > >> > with regards to Ernest Catley that went there for work after
> > >> > leaving >
> Lambeth.
> > >> >> He went to work in the mines and met Mary Jane Williams. They
> married
> > >and
> > >> > had 6 children. Mary died shortly after giving birth to
> > >> > Gwendoline E Catley in 1922. When I contacted the council to find
> > >> > where exactly she was
> > >buried
> > >> > they gave me the plot number and burial date plus her address.
> > >> > Every
> > >thing
> > >> > fitted into place until they told me she was a widow. Ernest had
> > >> > died whilst she was pregnant. I couldnt find a death for any
> > >> > Ernest in Wales for
> > >this
> > >> > time period, but have found one in Bridge Kent which fits the
> > >> > bill. I
> > >have
> > >> > ordered his cert. After working in the mines he became a Tailor
> > >Journeyman
> > >> > this is on marriage certs for his children.
> > >> >> Why would he have gone from Wales to Kent. Bridge is a small
> > >> >> village
> > >and
> > >> >> I
> > >> > have discovered that I had relatives from there on my
> > >> > Grandmothers >
> side.
> > >> > It
> > >> > was mainly a farming community. I wonder if he met my
grandmother!!!
> > >> >> I had a look around Abergevenny for Catley's that came from
> > >> >> Somerset
> > >way
> > >> > and couldn't find any.
> > >> >> It is worth contacting councils for information on burials or
> > >cremations,
> > >> > but helps if you have a rough idea of when the person died. Most
> > >> > are
> > all
> > >> > computerised so it is easy for them to do lookups. It is also
> > >> > worth >
> them
> > >> > putting in variations as Charles Alexander was down as Cattey and
> > >> > the
> > >lady
> > >> > was able to change this whilst I was still on the phone.
> > >> >> Talk soon
> > >> >> Liz
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > >> >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > >> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> > >> >>
> > >> >> ==============================
> > >> >> View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your
> > >> >> ancestors,
> find
> > >> >> marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> > >> >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > >> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > >> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> > >> >
> > >> > ==============================
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> > >> > in
> the
> > >> > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
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> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> > >>
> > >>==============================
> > >>Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more.
> > >>Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more:
> > >http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
> > >
> > >
> > >==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> > >
> > >==============================
> > >View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors,
> > >find marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> > >http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >
> > ==============================
> > New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your
> > ancestors
> at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more:
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> rgetid=5429
> >
>
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more.
> Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
>
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
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>
> ==============================
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>
> --
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>
>
--
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Yes please. Our branch (Ingrid & Graham Cattley and Beth Ediger) have
been trying to find photos and we would love to see a page like this.
-----Original Message-----
From: Erica Hills [mailto:erica@hillsperth.com]
Sent: Monday, 7 March 2005 5:47 PM
To: CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: [CAT...] Coat of Arms and photographs.
Hi,
You will find one version of the "coat of arms", as far as I know never
officially granted but used for trade purposes, on my web-pages
at http://members.iinet.net.au/~ericah/crest.html courtesy of our lovely
cousin Patty Cattley Bray in the USA. If anyone has any other crests I
would be glad to have them and put them on the Web.
While on that subject, I have been given a number of photographs by Joan
Cattley which I am in the process of labelling as far as I can and I am
considering setting up a page of old CAT*LEY photographs, all
spellings. I have a few already. What do folk think ?
Cheers........ Erica
At 7/03/2005 08:10 AM, you wrote:
>Many thanks for this fascinating "wild cat wood" thing which I first
heard
>from
>your letters to the list. I am sitting here learning a lot.
>
>I wonder, has anyone got a transmissible image of the seal you mention?
>
>My father had a paper copy of an old Cattley "coat of arms" (perhaps
not
>officially registered but drawn like one) with two Ts in it, which I
>recall had
>a small animal chained, maybe a hedgehog, and the motto "arouse me not"
or
>similar. He died in 1981 and I do not know what happened to it as I
received
>none of his paper belongings.
>
>LLM
>
>
>Quoting Tim Cattley <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>:
>
>>Hello LLM and everybody,
>>
>>Thank you for your interesting input especially concerning The
Remittance
>>Men which is something I knew nothing about but all seems so
logical....
>>cast them off to the antipodes if they are causing an embarrassment in
>>English Society!
>>
>>My original comments were of course aimed at the origins of the name
"in the
>>Mother Country" and go back to the 12th Century when the Catley Priory
was
>>founded carrying our name ( or is it us carrying its name?) whichever,
the
>>pundits tell us it is an old English place name meaning Wild Cat Wood.
>>
>>If anyone is interested, The British Library has a copy of the Catley
Priory
>>Seal.
>>
>>Regards Tim ----
-
mailto:erica@hillsperth.com
==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
==============================
Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records.
New content added every business day. Learn more:
http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx
Hi,
You will find one version of the "coat of arms", as far as I know never
officially granted but used for trade purposes, on my web-pages
at http://members.iinet.net.au/~ericah/crest.html courtesy of our lovely
cousin Patty Cattley Bray in the USA. If anyone has any other crests I
would be glad to have them and put them on the Web.
While on that subject, I have been given a number of photographs by Joan
Cattley which I am in the process of labelling as far as I can and I am
considering setting up a page of old CAT*LEY photographs, all
spellings. I have a few already. What do folk think ?
Cheers........ Erica
At 7/03/2005 08:10 AM, you wrote:
>Many thanks for this fascinating "wild cat wood" thing which I first heard
>from
>your letters to the list. I am sitting here learning a lot.
>
>I wonder, has anyone got a transmissible image of the seal you mention?
>
>My father had a paper copy of an old Cattley "coat of arms" (perhaps not
>officially registered but drawn like one) with two Ts in it, which I
>recall had
>a small animal chained, maybe a hedgehog, and the motto "arouse me not" or
>similar. He died in 1981 and I do not know what happened to it as I received
>none of his paper belongings.
>
>LLM
>
>
>Quoting Tim Cattley <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>:
>
>>Hello LLM and everybody,
>>
>>Thank you for your interesting input especially concerning The Remittance
>>Men which is something I knew nothing about but all seems so logical....
>>cast them off to the antipodes if they are causing an embarrassment in
>>English Society!
>>
>>My original comments were of course aimed at the origins of the name "in the
>>Mother Country" and go back to the 12th Century when the Catley Priory was
>>founded carrying our name ( or is it us carrying its name?) whichever, the
>>pundits tell us it is an old English place name meaning Wild Cat Wood.
>>
>>If anyone is interested, The British Library has a copy of the Catley Priory
>>Seal.
>>
>>Regards Tim ----
-
mailto:erica@hillsperth.com
Hi there All,
Our branch of the NZ Catleys as descended from Zacariah Catley and Sarah Meadows arriving here in 1830, now has a lateral spelt "Cateley". The story goes that Jane Appleyard, the new wife Arthur Ernest, did'nt like the spelling so had it changed. I would be interested if there are any descendents of this line who could verify/modify this story.
Regards
Jocelyn
Ps Having the name "Prvanov" sorts out people who listen...
----- Original Message -----
From: "L L Milnes (by way of Erica Hills <erica(a)hillsperth.com>)"
<landairwater(a)xnet.co.nz>
To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> Hi Tim and list,
>
> Your thoughts remind me how orderly English society is and was. How
could
> someone English do such a thing?
>
> But I think social mobility may have been a factor, because name
> spelling changes were so easy and usual in those days, and it wouldn't have been a
> big deal. I understand that word spellings were not fixed at all until
> quite late in the 19th century when dictionaries were becoming known.
>
> I note all these (socially disorderly) name-changing-as-social-mobility
> opinions are now coming from the antipodes: Aussie and NZ. Including
mine.
>
> Arguably these were more flexible, adaptable people, less bound by
tradition.
>
> In the antipodes there might also have been more social reasons to try to
> be a bit different. Some sent to Australia were convicts. Some sent to
> New Zealand were "remittance men". Some went to the South Pacific to
> re-invent themselves and make a fresh start. Quite a lot of people even
> today adopt a new name as part of this process.
>
> "Remittance men" had made themselves such a nuisance in polite English
> society (gambling debts, family scandals, fights) that their affluent
> families made them go and live in the colonies. The arrangement was
that,
> provided they stayed away from London, their family would send a periodic
> monetary "remittance" to support them. This apparently succeeded in
> keeping them away from polite society.
>
> Some migrants to New Zealand and Australia were very poor uneducated
people
> who could barely spell. In these conditions, it might be easy to put on
a
> bit of dash by pretending to have a fancy name. A woman in the city I
> grew up in, with three wartime children of diverse parentage, adopted
> the surname of a fancy American country club.
>
> Under these circumstances I think some social mobility name-changing
> might well have occurred.
>
> There were also name spelling changes as subtle indicators of group
> membership. This sometimes occurred where a group was trying to be
> inconspicuous. I think there was a tendency for English Catholic
families
> to use the letter Y in their names where there might more commonly be
> an
I.
> Smith-Smythe. Sidney-Sydney.
>
> LLM
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Cattley"
> <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
> To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
>
> >I understand what you say Kay but I am not convinced that many
> >Cat(t)ley families were necessarily aware of the existence of others
> >outside their
own
> >clan and if that was indeed the case, then none would necessarily
> >think
of a
> >name change in order to emulate "prosperity".
> >
> >Have made contact with a good number of members of different Trees
> >over
the
> >years and many tell a very similar family story in that inter family
fudes
> >decided various branches to make a name spelling adjustment to sever
> >connections. A member of one such family even said that the family
> >story
in
> >his case was that a name change was made because one lot were sheep
> >rustling! I have never thought of any such story as very likely?
> >
> >Before the introduction of the Internet and before that, of telephone
> >directories, it was surely very difficult for people to access any
> >form
of
> >public record in an attempt to check out Nationally just how many
> >other Cat(t)ley families may have existed. Suspect this applied very
> >much so
to
> >the Hertfordshire/Cambridgshire/Gloucestershire/Lincolnshire/Essex
families
> >plus probably those in Greater London as well.
> >
> >Tim
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: William N H Heath <hampden(a)bigpond.net.au>
> >To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 4:15 AM
> >Subject: Fw: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >
> >
> >>I think Tim, that as well as pure clerical error,
> >> we shouldn't underestimate the desire of people to make their
> >>names more 'up-market'....we are unaccustomed to being able to
> >>change so much as a letter in the spelling of our names without some
sort
> >of
> >>official record of the change etc.. but in those days who cared how
> >>you spelt it? or how many times you had changed it.
> >>
> >>'Cattley' may have been seen as either being in, or looking as if
> >>you belonged,
> >> to the prosperous side of the family!
> >>
> >>One of my ancestors was born 'Hudy', and when at 14 he went to do
> >>his apprenticeship (1803), he became 'Hewdey' - and that spelling
> >>stuck from then on.
> >>That's a dramatic change in 14 years.
> >>kayh
> >>
> >>p.s. on 1837 online, they have got the 1861 census, searchable, and
> >>only
> >the
> >>greater London area done at this time, but still terrific.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
> >>To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> >>Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:15 AM
> >>Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >>
> >>
> >> >I have often wondered how it is that quite a few Catley names have
> >> >got changed to Cattley over the past 200 years or so and have
> >> >thought it
> odd
> >> > that "a clerical error" should result in the inclusion of an
> >> > extra T
as
> >it
> >> > does not make sense to me.
> >> >
> >> > On the other hand, nor can I understand why a literate family
> >> > would necessarily wish to make such an alteration themselves?
> >> >
> >> > However, possibly you have inadvertently hit on an answer Liz?
> >> >
> >> > It is quite within the bounds of possibility that Catley could be
> >misread
> >> > as
> >> > Cattey and then a second clerical type, knowing that the name has
> >> > a phonetic L pronunciation in it, adds this letter to "get the
> >> > sound correct" >
hence
> >> > Cattley.
> >> >
> >> > The only other explanation I can think of is via The Bishops >
Transcripts
> >> > for
> >> > the Gilbertine Priory of Catley built circa 1143.
> >> >
> >> > If you study them you will note that the left hand page is
> >> > printed in
> >its
> >> > original Latin form whilst on the right, is the English translation.
> In
> >> > most cases the Latin name is spelt as Catthley and the English
> >translation
> >> > as Catley. I do not know when the Transcripts were first
> >> > published
from
> >> > the
> >> > original vellum but at a guess I would say in the early 1800's
> >> > and so maybe some literate Latin reading Catleys at that time,
> >> > decided to take on
> the
> >> > Latin form of spelling but drop the H?
> >> >
> >> > As most already know, the name Cat(t)ley is supposedly taken from
> >> > the
> >Old
> >> > English meaning for Wild Cat Wood. Presumably old English pre
> >> > dates
> >Latin
> >> > as
> >> > a mother tongue but is there written evidence? How is the meaning
wild
> >cat
> >> > wood deduced?
> >> >
> >> > Did the Monks at the Priory who wrote up the Transcripts thus >
"Latinise"
> >> > an
> >> > old English place name?
> >> >
> >> > Has anyone access to learned Professors of early English Language?
Can
> >> > any
> >> > more information be gained that would maybe take us further
> >> > foward
into
> >> > understanding the origins of the name?
> >> >
> >> > Any thoughts anybody?
> >> >
> >> > Regards Tim.
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: liz cordingley <lizcordingley(a)blueyonder.co.uk>
> >> > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> >> > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:02 AM
> >> > Subject: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Hi All,
> >> >> I have just come back from Wales after spending a couple of
> >> >> pleasant
> >days
> >> > there. I discovered a couple of graves and some interesting info
> >> > with regards to Ernest Catley that went there for work after
> >> > leaving >
Lambeth.
> >> >> He went to work in the mines and met Mary Jane Williams. They
married
> >and
> >> > had 6 children. Mary died shortly after giving birth to
> >> > Gwendoline E Catley in 1922. When I contacted the council to find
> >> > where exactly she was
> >buried
> >> > they gave me the plot number and burial date plus her address.
> >> > Every
> >thing
> >> > fitted into place until they told me she was a widow. Ernest had
> >> > died whilst she was pregnant. I couldnt find a death for any
> >> > Ernest in Wales for
> >this
> >> > time period, but have found one in Bridge Kent which fits the
> >> > bill. I
> >have
> >> > ordered his cert. After working in the mines he became a Tailor
> >Journeyman
> >> > this is on marriage certs for his children.
> >> >> Why would he have gone from Wales to Kent. Bridge is a small
> >> >> village
> >and
> >> >> I
> >> > have discovered that I had relatives from there on my
> >> > Grandmothers >
side.
> >> > It
> >> > was mainly a farming community. I wonder if he met my grandmother!!!
> >> >> I had a look around Abergevenny for Catley's that came from
> >> >> Somerset
> >way
> >> > and couldn't find any.
> >> >> It is worth contacting councils for information on burials or
> >cremations,
> >> > but helps if you have a rough idea of when the person died. Most
> >> > are
> all
> >> > computerised so it is easy for them to do lookups. It is also
> >> > worth >
them
> >> > putting in variations as Charles Alexander was down as Cattey and
> >> > the
> >lady
> >> > was able to change this whilst I was still on the phone.
> >> >> Talk soon
> >> >> Liz
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> >> >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> >> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >> >>
> >> >> ==============================
> >> >> View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your
> >> >> ancestors,
find
> >> >> marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> >> >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> >> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> >> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >> >
> >> > ==============================
> >> > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added
> >> > in
the
> >> > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> >> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >>
> >>==============================
> >>Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more.
> >>Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more:
> >http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
> >
> >
> >==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >
> >==============================
> >View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors,
> >find marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> >http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your
> ancestors
at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more:
http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta
rgetid=5429
>
Not us - our Catley arrived 1906. LLM
Quoting prvanov(a)xtra.co.nz:
>Hi there All,
>Our branch of the NZ Catleys as descended from Zacariah Catley and Sarah
>Meadows arriving here in 1830, now has a lateral spelt "Cateley". The
>story goes that Jane Appleyard, the new wife Arthur Ernest, did'nt like
>the spelling so had it changed. I would be interested if there are any
>descendents of this line who could verify/modify this story.
>Regards
>Jocelyn
>Ps Having the name "Prvanov" sorts out people who listen...
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "L L Milnes (by way of Erica Hills <erica(a)hillsperth.com>)"
><landairwater(a)xnet.co.nz>
>To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 4:24 PM
>Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
>
>>Hi Tim and list,
>>
>>Your thoughts remind me how orderly English society is and was. How
>could
>>someone English do such a thing?
>>
>>But I think social mobility may have been a factor, because name
>>spelling changes were so easy and usual in those days, and it wouldn't
>>have been a
>>big deal. I understand that word spellings were not fixed at all until
>>quite late in the 19th century when dictionaries were becoming known.
>>
>>I note all these (socially disorderly) name-changing-as-social-mobility
>>opinions are now coming from the antipodes: Aussie and NZ. Including
>mine.
>>
>>Arguably these were more flexible, adaptable people, less bound by
>tradition.
>>
>>In the antipodes there might also have been more social reasons to try to
>>be a bit different. Some sent to Australia were convicts. Some sent to
>>New Zealand were "remittance men". Some went to the South Pacific to
>>re-invent themselves and make a fresh start. Quite a lot of people even
>>today adopt a new name as part of this process.
>>
>>"Remittance men" had made themselves such a nuisance in polite English
>>society (gambling debts, family scandals, fights) that their affluent
>>families made them go and live in the colonies. The arrangement was
>that,
>>provided they stayed away from London, their family would send a periodic
>>monetary "remittance" to support them. This apparently succeeded in
>>keeping them away from polite society.
>>
>>Some migrants to New Zealand and Australia were very poor uneducated
>people
>>who could barely spell. In these conditions, it might be easy to put on
>a
>>bit of dash by pretending to have a fancy name. A woman in the city I
>>grew up in, with three wartime children of diverse parentage, adopted
>>the surname of a fancy American country club.
>>
>>Under these circumstances I think some social mobility name-changing
>>might well have occurred.
>>
>>There were also name spelling changes as subtle indicators of group
>>membership. This sometimes occurred where a group was trying to be
>>inconspicuous. I think there was a tendency for English Catholic
>families
>>to use the letter Y in their names where there might more commonly be
>>an
>I.
>>Smith-Smythe. Sidney-Sydney.
>>
>>LLM
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Cattley"
>><timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
>>To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>>Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:39 PM
>>Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>>
>>
>> >I understand what you say Kay but I am not convinced that many
>> >Cat(t)ley families were necessarily aware of the existence of others
>> >outside their
>own
>> >clan and if that was indeed the case, then none would necessarily
>> >think
>of a
>> >name change in order to emulate "prosperity".
>> >
>> >Have made contact with a good number of members of different Trees
>> >over
>the
>> >years and many tell a very similar family story in that inter family
>fudes
>> >decided various branches to make a name spelling adjustment to sever
>> >connections. A member of one such family even said that the family
>> >story
>in
>> >his case was that a name change was made because one lot were sheep
>> >rustling! I have never thought of any such story as very likely?
>> >
>> >Before the introduction of the Internet and before that, of telephone
>> >directories, it was surely very difficult for people to access any
>> >form
>of
>> >public record in an attempt to check out Nationally just how many
>> >other Cat(t)ley families may have existed. Suspect this applied very
>> >much so
>to
>> >the Hertfordshire/Cambridgshire/Gloucestershire/Lincolnshire/Essex
>families
>> >plus probably those in Greater London as well.
>> >
>> >Tim
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: William N H Heath <hampden(a)bigpond.net.au>
>> >To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>> >Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 4:15 AM
>> >Subject: Fw: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>> >
>> >
>> >>I think Tim, that as well as pure clerical error,
>> >> we shouldn't underestimate the desire of people to make their
>> >>names more 'up-market'....we are unaccustomed to being able to
>> >>change so much as a letter in the spelling of our names without some
>sort
>> >of
>> >>official record of the change etc.. but in those days who cared how
>> >>you spelt it? or how many times you had changed it.
>> >>
>> >>'Cattley' may have been seen as either being in, or looking as if
>> >>you belonged,
>> >> to the prosperous side of the family!
>> >>
>> >>One of my ancestors was born 'Hudy', and when at 14 he went to do
>> >>his apprenticeship (1803), he became 'Hewdey' - and that spelling
>> >>stuck from then on.
>> >>That's a dramatic change in 14 years.
>> >>kayh
>> >>
>> >>p.s. on 1837 online, they have got the 1861 census, searchable, and
>> >>only
>> >the
>> >>greater London area done at this time, but still terrific.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>----- Original Message -----
>> >>From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
>> >>To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>> >>Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:15 AM
>> >>Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >I have often wondered how it is that quite a few Catley names have
>> >> >got changed to Cattley over the past 200 years or so and have
>> >> >thought it
>>odd
>> >> > that "a clerical error" should result in the inclusion of an
>> >> > extra T
>as
>> >it
>> >> > does not make sense to me.
>> >> >
>> >> > On the other hand, nor can I understand why a literate family
>> >> > would necessarily wish to make such an alteration themselves?
>> >> >
>> >> > However, possibly you have inadvertently hit on an answer Liz?
>> >> >
>> >> > It is quite within the bounds of possibility that Catley could be
>> >misread
>> >> > as
>> >> > Cattey and then a second clerical type, knowing that the name has
>> >> > a phonetic L pronunciation in it, adds this letter to "get the
>> >> > sound correct" >
>hence
>> >> > Cattley.
>> >> >
>> >> > The only other explanation I can think of is via The Bishops >
>Transcripts
>> >> > for
>> >> > the Gilbertine Priory of Catley built circa 1143.
>> >> >
>> >> > If you study them you will note that the left hand page is
>> >> > printed in
>> >its
>> >> > original Latin form whilst on the right, is the English translation.
>>In
>> >> > most cases the Latin name is spelt as Catthley and the English
>> >translation
>> >> > as Catley. I do not know when the Transcripts were first
>> >> > published
>from
>> >> > the
>> >> > original vellum but at a guess I would say in the early 1800's
>> >> > and so maybe some literate Latin reading Catleys at that time,
>> >> > decided to take on
>>the
>> >> > Latin form of spelling but drop the H?
>> >> >
>> >> > As most already know, the name Cat(t)ley is supposedly taken from
>> >> > the
>> >Old
>> >> > English meaning for Wild Cat Wood. Presumably old English pre
>> >> > dates
>> >Latin
>> >> > as
>> >> > a mother tongue but is there written evidence? How is the meaning
>wild
>> >cat
>> >> > wood deduced?
>> >> >
>> >> > Did the Monks at the Priory who wrote up the Transcripts thus >
>"Latinise"
>> >> > an
>> >> > old English place name?
>> >> >
>> >> > Has anyone access to learned Professors of early English Language?
>Can
>> >> > any
>> >> > more information be gained that would maybe take us further
>> >> > foward
>into
>> >> > understanding the origins of the name?
>> >> >
>> >> > Any thoughts anybody?
>> >> >
>> >> > Regards Tim.
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: liz cordingley <lizcordingley(a)blueyonder.co.uk>
>> >> > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>> >> > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:02 AM
>> >> > Subject: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hi All,
>> >> >> I have just come back from Wales after spending a couple of
>> >> >> pleasant
>> >days
>> >> > there. I discovered a couple of graves and some interesting info
>> >> > with regards to Ernest Catley that went there for work after
>> >> > leaving >
>Lambeth.
>> >> >> He went to work in the mines and met Mary Jane Williams. They
>married
>> >and
>> >> > had 6 children. Mary died shortly after giving birth to
>> >> > Gwendoline E Catley in 1922. When I contacted the council to find
>> >> > where exactly she was
>> >buried
>> >> > they gave me the plot number and burial date plus her address.
>> >> > Every
>> >thing
>> >> > fitted into place until they told me she was a widow. Ernest had
>> >> > died whilst she was pregnant. I couldnt find a death for any
>> >> > Ernest in Wales for
>> >this
>> >> > time period, but have found one in Bridge Kent which fits the
>> >> > bill. I
>> >have
>> >> > ordered his cert. After working in the mines he became a Tailor
>> >Journeyman
>> >> > this is on marriage certs for his children.
>> >> >> Why would he have gone from Wales to Kent. Bridge is a small
>> >> >> village
>> >and
>> >> >> I
>> >> > have discovered that I had relatives from there on my
>> >> > Grandmothers >
>side.
>> >> > It
>> >> > was mainly a farming community. I wonder if he met my grandmother!!!
>> >> >> I had a look around Abergevenny for Catley's that came from
>> >> >> Somerset
>> >way
>> >> > and couldn't find any.
>> >> >> It is worth contacting councils for information on burials or
>> >cremations,
>> >> > but helps if you have a rough idea of when the person died. Most
>> >> > are
>>all
>> >> > computerised so it is easy for them to do lookups. It is also
>> >> > worth >
>them
>> >> > putting in variations as Charles Alexander was down as Cattey and
>> >> > the
>> >lady
>> >> > was able to change this whilst I was still on the phone.
>> >> >> Talk soon
>> >> >> Liz
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
>> >> >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
>> >> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ==============================
>> >> >> View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your
>> >> >> ancestors,
>find
>> >> >> marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
>> >> >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
>> >> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
>> >> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>> >> >
>> >> > ==============================
>> >> > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added
>> >> > in
>the
>> >> > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
>> >> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
>> >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
>> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>> >>
>> >>==============================
>> >>Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more.
>> >>Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more:
>> >http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
>> >
>> >
>> >==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
>> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
>> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>> >
>> >==============================
>> >View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors,
>> >find marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
>> >http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
>> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
>> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>>
>>==============================
>>New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your
>>ancestors
>at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more:
>http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta
>rgetid=5429
>
>
>
>==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
>==============================
>Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more.
>Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more:
>http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
>
PS Just thought, I might be confusing the motto with another Catley motto he
told me about, which was French : "J'espere" (I wish). One was told me, the
other on the "coat of arms". LLM
Quoting landairwater(a)xnet.co.nz:
>Many thanks for this fascinating "wild cat wood" thing which I first
>heard from
>your letters to the list. I am sitting here learning a lot.
>
>I wonder, has anyone got a transmissible image of the seal you mention?
>
>My father had a paper copy of an old Cattley "coat of arms" (perhaps not
>officially registered but drawn like one) with two Ts in it, which I
>recall had
>a small animal chained, maybe a hedgehog, and the motto "arouse me not" or
>similar. He died in 1981 and I do not know what happened to it as I received
>none of his paper belongings.
>
>LLM
>
>
>Quoting Tim Cattley <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>:
>
>>Hello LLM and everybody,
>>
>>Thank you for your interesting input especially concerning The Remittance
>>Men which is something I knew nothing about but all seems so logical....
>>cast them off to the antipodes if they are causing an embarrassment in
>>English Society!
>>
>>My original comments were of course aimed at the origins of the name "in the
>>Mother Country" and go back to the 12th Century when the Catley Priory was
>>founded carrying our name ( or is it us carrying its name?) whichever, the
>>pundits tell us it is an old English place name meaning Wild Cat Wood.
>>
>>If anyone is interested, The British Library has a copy of the Catley Priory
>>Seal.
>>
>>Regards Tim ----
>
Many thanks for this fascinating "wild cat wood" thing which I first heard from
your letters to the list. I am sitting here learning a lot.
I wonder, has anyone got a transmissible image of the seal you mention?
My father had a paper copy of an old Cattley "coat of arms" (perhaps not
officially registered but drawn like one) with two Ts in it, which I recall had
a small animal chained, maybe a hedgehog, and the motto "arouse me not" or
similar. He died in 1981 and I do not know what happened to it as I received
none of his paper belongings.
LLM
Quoting Tim Cattley <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>:
>Hello LLM and everybody,
>
>Thank you for your interesting input especially concerning The Remittance
>Men which is something I knew nothing about but all seems so logical....
>cast them off to the antipodes if they are causing an embarrassment in
>English Society!
>
>My original comments were of course aimed at the origins of the name "in the
>Mother Country" and go back to the 12th Century when the Catley Priory was
>founded carrying our name ( or is it us carrying its name?) whichever, the
>pundits tell us it is an old English place name meaning Wild Cat Wood.
>
>If anyone is interested, The British Library has a copy of the Catley Priory
>Seal.
>
>Regards Tim ----
Hello LLM and everybody,
Thank you for your interesting input especially concerning The Remittance
Men which is something I knew nothing about but all seems so logical....
cast them off to the antipodes if they are causing an embarrassment in
English Society!
My original comments were of course aimed at the origins of the name "in the
Mother Country" and go back to the 12th Century when the Catley Priory was
founded carrying our name ( or is it us carrying its name?) whichever, the
pundits tell us it is an old English place name meaning Wild Cat Wood.
If anyone is interested, The British Library has a copy of the Catley Priory
Seal.
Regards Tim ---- Original Message -----
From: L L Milnes (by way of Erica Hills <erica(a)hillsperth.com>)
<landairwater(a)xnet.co.nz>
To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> Hi Tim and list,
>
> Your thoughts remind me how orderly English society is and was. How
could
> someone English do such a thing?
>
> But I think social mobility may have been a factor, because name spelling
> changes were so easy and usual in those days, and it wouldn't have been a
> big deal. I understand that word spellings were not fixed at all until
> quite late in the 19th century when dictionaries were becoming known.
>
> I note all these (socially disorderly) name-changing-as-social-mobility
> opinions are now coming from the antipodes: Aussie and NZ. Including
mine.
>
> Arguably these were more flexible, adaptable people, less bound by
tradition.
>
> In the antipodes there might also have been more social reasons to try to
> be a bit different. Some sent to Australia were convicts. Some sent to
> New Zealand were "remittance men". Some went to the South Pacific to
> re-invent themselves and make a fresh start. Quite a lot of people even
> today adopt a new name as part of this process.
>
> "Remittance men" had made themselves such a nuisance in polite English
> society (gambling debts, family scandals, fights) that their affluent
> families made them go and live in the colonies. The arrangement was
that,
> provided they stayed away from London, their family would send a periodic
> monetary "remittance" to support them. This apparently succeeded in
> keeping them away from polite society.
>
> Some migrants to New Zealand and Australia were very poor uneducated
people
> who could barely spell. In these conditions, it might be easy to put on
a
> bit of dash by pretending to have a fancy name. A woman in the city I
> grew up in, with three wartime children of diverse parentage, adopted the
> surname of a fancy American country club.
>
> Under these circumstances I think some social mobility name-changing might
> well have occurred.
>
> There were also name spelling changes as subtle indicators of group
> membership. This sometimes occurred where a group was trying to be
> inconspicuous. I think there was a tendency for English Catholic
families
> to use the letter Y in their names where there might more commonly be an
I.
> Smith-Smythe. Sidney-Sydney.
>
> LLM
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
> To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
>
> >I understand what you say Kay but I am not convinced that many Cat(t)ley
> >families were necessarily aware of the existence of others outside their
own
> >clan and if that was indeed the case, then none would necessarily think
of a
> >name change in order to emulate "prosperity".
> >
> >Have made contact with a good number of members of different Trees over
the
> >years and many tell a very similar family story in that inter family
fudes
> >decided various branches to make a name spelling adjustment to sever
> >connections. A member of one such family even said that the family story
in
> >his case was that a name change was made because one lot were sheep
> >rustling! I have never thought of any such story as very likely?
> >
> >Before the introduction of the Internet and before that, of telephone
> >directories, it was surely very difficult for people to access any form
of
> >public record in an attempt to check out Nationally just how many other
> >Cat(t)ley families may have existed. Suspect this applied very much so
to
> >the Hertfordshire/Cambridgshire/Gloucestershire/Lincolnshire/Essex
families
> >plus probably those in Greater London as well.
> >
> >Tim
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: William N H Heath <hampden(a)bigpond.net.au>
> >To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> >Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 4:15 AM
> >Subject: Fw: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >
> >
> >>I think Tim, that as well as pure clerical error,
> >> we shouldn't underestimate the desire of people to make their
> >>names more 'up-market'....we are unaccustomed to being able to
> >>change so much as a letter in the spelling of our names without some
sort
> >of
> >>official record of the change etc.. but in those days who cared how you
> >>spelt it? or how
> >>many times you had changed it.
> >>
> >>'Cattley' may have been seen as either being in, or looking as if you
> >>belonged,
> >> to the prosperous side of the family!
> >>
> >>One of my ancestors was born 'Hudy', and when at 14 he went to do
> >>his apprenticeship (1803), he became 'Hewdey' - and that spelling stuck
> >>from then on.
> >>That's a dramatic change in 14 years.
> >>kayh
> >>
> >>p.s. on 1837 online, they have got the 1861 census, searchable, and only
> >the
> >>greater London area done at this time, but still terrific.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
> >>To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> >>Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:15 AM
> >>Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >>
> >>
> >> >I have often wondered how it is that quite a few Catley names have got
> >> > changed to Cattley over the past 200 years or so and have thought it
> odd
> >> > that "a clerical error" should result in the inclusion of an extra T
as
> >it
> >> > does not make sense to me.
> >> >
> >> > On the other hand, nor can I understand why a literate family would
> >> > necessarily wish to make such an alteration themselves?
> >> >
> >> > However, possibly you have inadvertently hit on an answer Liz?
> >> >
> >> > It is quite within the bounds of possibility that Catley could be
> >misread
> >> > as
> >> > Cattey and then a second clerical type, knowing that the name has a
> >> > phonetic
> >> > L pronunciation in it, adds this letter to "get the sound correct" >
hence
> >> > Cattley.
> >> >
> >> > The only other explanation I can think of is via The Bishops >
Transcripts
> >> > for
> >> > the Gilbertine Priory of Catley built circa 1143.
> >> >
> >> > If you study them you will note that the left hand page is printed in
> >its
> >> > original Latin form whilst on the right, is the English translation.
> In
> >> > most cases the Latin name is spelt as Catthley and the English
> >translation
> >> > as Catley. I do not know when the Transcripts were first published
from
> >> > the
> >> > original vellum but at a guess I would say in the early 1800's and so
> >> > maybe
> >> > some literate Latin reading Catleys at that time, decided to take on
> the
> >> > Latin form of spelling but drop the H?
> >> >
> >> > As most already know, the name Cat(t)ley is supposedly taken from the
> >Old
> >> > English meaning for Wild Cat Wood. Presumably old English pre dates
> >Latin
> >> > as
> >> > a mother tongue but is there written evidence? How is the meaning
wild
> >cat
> >> > wood deduced?
> >> >
> >> > Did the Monks at the Priory who wrote up the Transcripts thus >
"Latinise"
> >> > an
> >> > old English place name?
> >> >
> >> > Has anyone access to learned Professors of early English Language?
Can
> >> > any
> >> > more information be gained that would maybe take us further foward
into
> >> > understanding the origins of the name?
> >> >
> >> > Any thoughts anybody?
> >> >
> >> > Regards Tim.
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: liz cordingley <lizcordingley(a)blueyonder.co.uk>
> >> > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> >> > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:02 AM
> >> > Subject: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Hi All,
> >> >> I have just come back from Wales after spending a couple of pleasant
> >days
> >> > there. I discovered a couple of graves and some interesting info with
> >> > regards to Ernest Catley that went there for work after leaving >
Lambeth.
> >> >> He went to work in the mines and met Mary Jane Williams. They
married
> >and
> >> > had 6 children. Mary died shortly after giving birth to Gwendoline E
> >> > Catley
> >> > in 1922. When I contacted the council to find where exactly she was
> >buried
> >> > they gave me the plot number and burial date plus her address. Every
> >thing
> >> > fitted into place until they told me she was a widow. Ernest had died
> >> > whilst
> >> > she was pregnant. I couldnt find a death for any Ernest in Wales for
> >this
> >> > time period, but have found one in Bridge Kent which fits the bill. I
> >have
> >> > ordered his cert. After working in the mines he became a Tailor
> >Journeyman
> >> > this is on marriage certs for his children.
> >> >> Why would he have gone from Wales to Kent. Bridge is a small village
> >and
> >> >> I
> >> > have discovered that I had relatives from there on my Grandmothers >
side.
> >> > It
> >> > was mainly a farming community. I wonder if he met my grandmother!!!
> >> >> I had a look around Abergevenny for Catley's that came from Somerset
> >way
> >> > and couldn't find any.
> >> >> It is worth contacting councils for information on burials or
> >cremations,
> >> > but helps if you have a rough idea of when the person died. Most are
> all
> >> > computerised so it is easy for them to do lookups. It is also worth >
them
> >> > putting in variations as Charles Alexander was down as Cattey and the
> >lady
> >> > was able to change this whilst I was still on the phone.
> >> >> Talk soon
> >> >> Liz
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> >> >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> >> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >> >>
> >> >> ==============================
> >> >> View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors,
find
> >> >> marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> >> >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> >> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> >> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >> >
> >> > ==============================
> >> > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in
the
> >> > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> >> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >>
> >>==============================
> >>Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more.
> >>Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more:
> >http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
> >
> >
> >==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >
> >==============================
> >View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find
> >marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> >http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> New! Family Tree Maker 2005. Build your tree and search for your ancestors
at the same time. Share your tree with family and friends. Learn more:
http://landing.ancestry.com/familytreemaker/2005/tour.aspx?sourceid=14599&ta
rgetid=5429
>
Very festive Ros.
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: Roslyn Chapman <rosiecha(a)bigpond.net.au>
To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 1:54 AM
Subject: RE: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> No but there was a Noelene Mutton. Ros
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Cattley [mailto:timjhcat@tiscali.co.uk]
> Sent: Sunday, 6 March 2005 9:54 AM
> To: CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
> Anybody named Stewart in the Mutton/Lamb families?
> Tim C
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roslyn Chapman <rosiecha(a)bigpond.net.au>
> To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 12:48 AM
> Subject: RE: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
>
> > Can't find a Mutton marrying an Onion but have a Mutton marrying a Lamb.
> > Ros
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tim Cattley [mailto:timjhcat@tiscali.co.uk]
> > Sent: Saturday, 5 March 2005 7:34 AM
> > To: CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com
> > Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >
> > We have a family in this County called Onions.
> > Tim Cattley
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Roslyn Chapman <rosiecha(a)bigpond.net.au>
> > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:22 PM
> > Subject: RE: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >
> >
> > > I was born a Mutton, at school my nickname was Chops, but some of the
> > family
> > > didn't like being teased and changed it to Multon, while some of
another
> > > family in Australia changed it to Mutdoon. Ros Chapman, Australia
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: William N H Heath [mailto:hampden@bigpond.net.au]
> > > Sent: Thursday, 3 March 2005 2:16 PM
> > > To: CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com
> > > Subject: Fw: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> > >
> > > I think Tim, that as well as pure clerical error,
> > > we shouldn't underestimate the desire of people to make their
> > > names more 'up-market'....we are unaccustomed to being able to
> > > change so much as a letter in the spelling of our names without some
> sort
> > of
> > > official record of the change etc.. but in those days who cared how
you
> > > spelt it? or how
> > > many times you had changed it.
> > >
> > > 'Cattley' may have been seen as either being in, or looking as if you
> > > belonged,
> > > to the prosperous side of the family!
> > >
> > > One of my ancestors was born 'Hudy', and when at 14 he went to do
> > > his apprenticeship (1803), he became 'Hewdey' - and that spelling
stuck
> > > from then on.
> > > That's a dramatic change in 14 years.
> > > kayh
> > >
> > > p.s. on 1837 online, they have got the 1861 census, searchable, and
only
> > the
> > > greater London area done at this time, but still terrific.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
> > > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:15 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> > >
> > >
> > > >I have often wondered how it is that quite a few Catley names have
got
> > > > changed to Cattley over the past 200 years or so and have thought it
> odd
> > > > that "a clerical error" should result in the inclusion of an extra T
> as
> > it
> > > > does not make sense to me.
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, nor can I understand why a literate family would
> > > > necessarily wish to make such an alteration themselves?
> > > >
> > > > However, possibly you have inadvertently hit on an answer Liz?
> > > >
> > > > It is quite within the bounds of possibility that Catley could be
> > misread
> > > > as
> > > > Cattey and then a second clerical type, knowing that the name has a
> > > > phonetic
> > > > L pronunciation in it, adds this letter to "get the sound correct"
> hence
> > > > Cattley.
> > > >
> > > > The only other explanation I can think of is via The Bishops
> Transcripts
> > > > for
> > > > the Gilbertine Priory of Catley built circa 1143.
> > > >
> > > > If you study them you will note that the left hand page is printed
in
> > its
> > > > original Latin form whilst on the right, is the English translation.
> In
> > > > most cases the Latin name is spelt as Catthley and the English
> > translation
> > > > as Catley. I do not know when the Transcripts were first published
> from
> > > > the
> > > > original vellum but at a guess I would say in the early 1800's and
so
> > > > maybe
> > > > some literate Latin reading Catleys at that time, decided to take on
> the
> > > > Latin form of spelling but drop the H?
> > > >
> > > > As most already know, the name Cat(t)ley is supposedly taken from
the
> > Old
> > > > English meaning for Wild Cat Wood. Presumably old English pre dates
> > Latin
> > > > as
> > > > a mother tongue but is there written evidence? How is the meaning
wild
> > cat
> > > > wood deduced?
> > > >
> > > > Did the Monks at the Priory who wrote up the Transcripts thus
> "Latinise"
> > > > an
> > > > old English place name?
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone access to learned Professors of early English Language?
> Can
> > > > any
> > > > more information be gained that would maybe take us further foward
> into
> > > > understanding the origins of the name?
> > > >
> > > > Any thoughts anybody?
> > > >
> > > > Regards Tim.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: liz cordingley <lizcordingley(a)blueyonder.co.uk>
> > > > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:02 AM
> > > > Subject: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Hi All,
> > > >> I have just come back from Wales after spending a couple of
pleasant
> > days
> > > > there. I discovered a couple of graves and some interesting info
with
> > > > regards to Ernest Catley that went there for work after leaving
> Lambeth.
> > > >> He went to work in the mines and met Mary Jane Williams. They
married
> > and
> > > > had 6 children. Mary died shortly after giving birth to Gwendoline E
> > > > Catley
> > > > in 1922. When I contacted the council to find where exactly she was
> > buried
> > > > they gave me the plot number and burial date plus her address. Every
> > thing
> > > > fitted into place until they told me she was a widow. Ernest had
died
> > > > whilst
> > > > she was pregnant. I couldnt find a death for any Ernest in Wales for
> > this
> > > > time period, but have found one in Bridge Kent which fits the bill.
I
> > have
> > > > ordered his cert. After working in the mines he became a Tailor
> > Journeyman
> > > > this is on marriage certs for his children.
> > > >> Why would he have gone from Wales to Kent. Bridge is a small
village
> > and
> > > >> I
> > > > have discovered that I had relatives from there on my Grandmothers
> side.
> > > > It
> > > > was mainly a farming community. I wonder if he met my grandmother!!!
> > > >> I had a look around Abergevenny for Catley's that came from
Somerset
> > way
> > > > and couldn't find any.
> > > >> It is worth contacting councils for information on burials or
> > cremations,
> > > > but helps if you have a rough idea of when the person died. Most are
> all
> > > > computerised so it is easy for them to do lookups. It is also worth
> them
> > > > putting in variations as Charles Alexander was down as Cattey and
the
> > lady
> > > > was able to change this whilst I was still on the phone.
> > > >> Talk soon
> > > >> Liz
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > > >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > > >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> > > >>
> > > >> ==============================
> > > >> View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors,
> find
> > > >> marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> > > >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > > > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> > > >
> > > > ==============================
> > > > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in
the
> > > > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> > > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> > >
> > > ==============================
> > > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more.
> > > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more:
> > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> > >
> > > ==============================
> > > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records.
> > > New content added every business day. Learn more:
> > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx
> > >
> >
> >
> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >
> > ==============================
> > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
> > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >
> > ==============================
> > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the
> > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months.
> > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx
> >
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records.
> New content added every business day. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx
>
>
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
>
Anybody named Stewart in the Mutton/Lamb families?
Tim C
----- Original Message -----
From: Roslyn Chapman <rosiecha(a)bigpond.net.au>
To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 12:48 AM
Subject: RE: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> Can't find a Mutton marrying an Onion but have a Mutton marrying a Lamb.
> Ros
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Cattley [mailto:timjhcat@tiscali.co.uk]
> Sent: Saturday, 5 March 2005 7:34 AM
> To: CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
> We have a family in this County called Onions.
> Tim Cattley
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roslyn Chapman <rosiecha(a)bigpond.net.au>
> To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:22 PM
> Subject: RE: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
>
> > I was born a Mutton, at school my nickname was Chops, but some of the
> family
> > didn't like being teased and changed it to Multon, while some of another
> > family in Australia changed it to Mutdoon. Ros Chapman, Australia
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: William N H Heath [mailto:hampden@bigpond.net.au]
> > Sent: Thursday, 3 March 2005 2:16 PM
> > To: CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com
> > Subject: Fw: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >
> > I think Tim, that as well as pure clerical error,
> > we shouldn't underestimate the desire of people to make their
> > names more 'up-market'....we are unaccustomed to being able to
> > change so much as a letter in the spelling of our names without some
sort
> of
> > official record of the change etc.. but in those days who cared how you
> > spelt it? or how
> > many times you had changed it.
> >
> > 'Cattley' may have been seen as either being in, or looking as if you
> > belonged,
> > to the prosperous side of the family!
> >
> > One of my ancestors was born 'Hudy', and when at 14 he went to do
> > his apprenticeship (1803), he became 'Hewdey' - and that spelling stuck
> > from then on.
> > That's a dramatic change in 14 years.
> > kayh
> >
> > p.s. on 1837 online, they have got the 1861 census, searchable, and only
> the
> > greater London area done at this time, but still terrific.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
> > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:15 AM
> > Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >
> >
> > >I have often wondered how it is that quite a few Catley names have got
> > > changed to Cattley over the past 200 years or so and have thought it
odd
> > > that "a clerical error" should result in the inclusion of an extra T
as
> it
> > > does not make sense to me.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, nor can I understand why a literate family would
> > > necessarily wish to make such an alteration themselves?
> > >
> > > However, possibly you have inadvertently hit on an answer Liz?
> > >
> > > It is quite within the bounds of possibility that Catley could be
> misread
> > > as
> > > Cattey and then a second clerical type, knowing that the name has a
> > > phonetic
> > > L pronunciation in it, adds this letter to "get the sound correct"
hence
> > > Cattley.
> > >
> > > The only other explanation I can think of is via The Bishops
Transcripts
> > > for
> > > the Gilbertine Priory of Catley built circa 1143.
> > >
> > > If you study them you will note that the left hand page is printed in
> its
> > > original Latin form whilst on the right, is the English translation.
In
> > > most cases the Latin name is spelt as Catthley and the English
> translation
> > > as Catley. I do not know when the Transcripts were first published
from
> > > the
> > > original vellum but at a guess I would say in the early 1800's and so
> > > maybe
> > > some literate Latin reading Catleys at that time, decided to take on
the
> > > Latin form of spelling but drop the H?
> > >
> > > As most already know, the name Cat(t)ley is supposedly taken from the
> Old
> > > English meaning for Wild Cat Wood. Presumably old English pre dates
> Latin
> > > as
> > > a mother tongue but is there written evidence? How is the meaning wild
> cat
> > > wood deduced?
> > >
> > > Did the Monks at the Priory who wrote up the Transcripts thus
"Latinise"
> > > an
> > > old English place name?
> > >
> > > Has anyone access to learned Professors of early English Language?
Can
> > > any
> > > more information be gained that would maybe take us further foward
into
> > > understanding the origins of the name?
> > >
> > > Any thoughts anybody?
> > >
> > > Regards Tim.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: liz cordingley <lizcordingley(a)blueyonder.co.uk>
> > > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:02 AM
> > > Subject: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> > >
> > >
> > >> Hi All,
> > >> I have just come back from Wales after spending a couple of pleasant
> days
> > > there. I discovered a couple of graves and some interesting info with
> > > regards to Ernest Catley that went there for work after leaving
Lambeth.
> > >> He went to work in the mines and met Mary Jane Williams. They married
> and
> > > had 6 children. Mary died shortly after giving birth to Gwendoline E
> > > Catley
> > > in 1922. When I contacted the council to find where exactly she was
> buried
> > > they gave me the plot number and burial date plus her address. Every
> thing
> > > fitted into place until they told me she was a widow. Ernest had died
> > > whilst
> > > she was pregnant. I couldnt find a death for any Ernest in Wales for
> this
> > > time period, but have found one in Bridge Kent which fits the bill. I
> have
> > > ordered his cert. After working in the mines he became a Tailor
> Journeyman
> > > this is on marriage certs for his children.
> > >> Why would he have gone from Wales to Kent. Bridge is a small village
> and
> > >> I
> > > have discovered that I had relatives from there on my Grandmothers
side.
> > > It
> > > was mainly a farming community. I wonder if he met my grandmother!!!
> > >> I had a look around Abergevenny for Catley's that came from Somerset
> way
> > > and couldn't find any.
> > >> It is worth contacting councils for information on burials or
> cremations,
> > > but helps if you have a rough idea of when the person died. Most are
all
> > > computerised so it is easy for them to do lookups. It is also worth
them
> > > putting in variations as Charles Alexander was down as Cattey and the
> lady
> > > was able to change this whilst I was still on the phone.
> > >> Talk soon
> > >> Liz
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> > >>
> > >> ==============================
> > >> View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors,
find
> > >> marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> > >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> > >
> > > ==============================
> > > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
> > > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >
> > ==============================
> > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more.
> > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more:
> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >
> > ==============================
> > Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records.
> > New content added every business day. Learn more:
> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx
> >
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
> last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
>
>
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the
> areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months.
> Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx
>
G'day Mick,
I have also got the 1594 Catly Eln and Wm Adam, Bartlow, Cambs record but as
for 1684 Catley Jane and Rowland Street:-
Do not know if this was a slip of your finger on the qwerty board or not but
for Powlmere .... please insert Fowlmere instead.
Since getting your e-mail I have been searching vaguely for Parish Records
re Cat(t)ley in Sawston Cambs which I know I have in paper copy only
somewhere in my files but have failed to find them (yet) but I recall that
they also contain a very large number of Cat(t)ley records which go back to
at least 1640.
Again Sawston falls within that circle of around 15 miles dia which contains
Great Chesterford and of course Anstey!
It looks as you have a "concentration of Cat(t)leys" all muddled together
and difficult to isolate whereas Kay H and self have a swathe of Cat(t)leys
scattered across Yorkshire in similar small villages.
Tim.C.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mick Catley <catleym(a)netspeed.com.au>
To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: [CAT...] James Catley, Hertfordshire
> Thanks for your comments Tim. I should have mentioned that I also have
two
> marriage records from Boyds Marriage Index for Cambridgeshire that predate
> my earliest Hertfordshire record but I do not know whether they are
linked.
>
> They are 1594 CATLY Eln and Wm ADAM , Bartlow,Camb.
> 1684 CATLEY, Jane and Rowland STREET, Powlmere, Camb.
>
> At 10:32 AM 5/03/2005, Tim Cattley wrote:
> >My Herts records give an indication of one William Catley who married a
> >Hannah Canfield on 28th October 1633 at Welwyn but this comes from the
>
> Regards,
>
> Mick Catley
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.2 - Release Date: 4/03/2005
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records.
> New content added every business day. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx
>
Can't find a Mutton marrying an Onion but have a Mutton marrying a Lamb.
Ros
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Cattley [mailto:timjhcat@tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, 5 March 2005 7:34 AM
To: CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
We have a family in this County called Onions.
Tim Cattley
----- Original Message -----
From: Roslyn Chapman <rosiecha(a)bigpond.net.au>
To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:22 PM
Subject: RE: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> I was born a Mutton, at school my nickname was Chops, but some of the
family
> didn't like being teased and changed it to Multon, while some of another
> family in Australia changed it to Mutdoon. Ros Chapman, Australia
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William N H Heath [mailto:hampden@bigpond.net.au]
> Sent: Thursday, 3 March 2005 2:16 PM
> To: CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com
> Subject: Fw: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
> I think Tim, that as well as pure clerical error,
> we shouldn't underestimate the desire of people to make their
> names more 'up-market'....we are unaccustomed to being able to
> change so much as a letter in the spelling of our names without some sort
of
> official record of the change etc.. but in those days who cared how you
> spelt it? or how
> many times you had changed it.
>
> 'Cattley' may have been seen as either being in, or looking as if you
> belonged,
> to the prosperous side of the family!
>
> One of my ancestors was born 'Hudy', and when at 14 he went to do
> his apprenticeship (1803), he became 'Hewdey' - and that spelling stuck
> from then on.
> That's a dramatic change in 14 years.
> kayh
>
> p.s. on 1837 online, they have got the 1861 census, searchable, and only
the
> greater London area done at this time, but still terrific.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
> To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
>
> >I have often wondered how it is that quite a few Catley names have got
> > changed to Cattley over the past 200 years or so and have thought it odd
> > that "a clerical error" should result in the inclusion of an extra T as
it
> > does not make sense to me.
> >
> > On the other hand, nor can I understand why a literate family would
> > necessarily wish to make such an alteration themselves?
> >
> > However, possibly you have inadvertently hit on an answer Liz?
> >
> > It is quite within the bounds of possibility that Catley could be
misread
> > as
> > Cattey and then a second clerical type, knowing that the name has a
> > phonetic
> > L pronunciation in it, adds this letter to "get the sound correct" hence
> > Cattley.
> >
> > The only other explanation I can think of is via The Bishops Transcripts
> > for
> > the Gilbertine Priory of Catley built circa 1143.
> >
> > If you study them you will note that the left hand page is printed in
its
> > original Latin form whilst on the right, is the English translation. In
> > most cases the Latin name is spelt as Catthley and the English
translation
> > as Catley. I do not know when the Transcripts were first published from
> > the
> > original vellum but at a guess I would say in the early 1800's and so
> > maybe
> > some literate Latin reading Catleys at that time, decided to take on the
> > Latin form of spelling but drop the H?
> >
> > As most already know, the name Cat(t)ley is supposedly taken from the
Old
> > English meaning for Wild Cat Wood. Presumably old English pre dates
Latin
> > as
> > a mother tongue but is there written evidence? How is the meaning wild
cat
> > wood deduced?
> >
> > Did the Monks at the Priory who wrote up the Transcripts thus "Latinise"
> > an
> > old English place name?
> >
> > Has anyone access to learned Professors of early English Language? Can
> > any
> > more information be gained that would maybe take us further foward into
> > understanding the origins of the name?
> >
> > Any thoughts anybody?
> >
> > Regards Tim.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: liz cordingley <lizcordingley(a)blueyonder.co.uk>
> > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:02 AM
> > Subject: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >
> >
> >> Hi All,
> >> I have just come back from Wales after spending a couple of pleasant
days
> > there. I discovered a couple of graves and some interesting info with
> > regards to Ernest Catley that went there for work after leaving Lambeth.
> >> He went to work in the mines and met Mary Jane Williams. They married
and
> > had 6 children. Mary died shortly after giving birth to Gwendoline E
> > Catley
> > in 1922. When I contacted the council to find where exactly she was
buried
> > they gave me the plot number and burial date plus her address. Every
thing
> > fitted into place until they told me she was a widow. Ernest had died
> > whilst
> > she was pregnant. I couldnt find a death for any Ernest in Wales for
this
> > time period, but have found one in Bridge Kent which fits the bill. I
have
> > ordered his cert. After working in the mines he became a Tailor
Journeyman
> > this is on marriage certs for his children.
> >> Why would he have gone from Wales to Kent. Bridge is a small village
and
> >> I
> > have discovered that I had relatives from there on my Grandmothers side.
> > It
> > was mainly a farming community. I wonder if he met my grandmother!!!
> >> I had a look around Abergevenny for Catley's that came from Somerset
way
> > and couldn't find any.
> >> It is worth contacting councils for information on burials or
cremations,
> > but helps if you have a rough idea of when the person died. Most are all
> > computerised so it is easy for them to do lookups. It is also worth them
> > putting in variations as Charles Alexander was down as Cattey and the
lady
> > was able to change this whilst I was still on the phone.
> >> Talk soon
> >> Liz
> >>
> >>
> >> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >>
> >> ==============================
> >> View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find
> >> marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
> >>
> >
> >
> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >
> > ==============================
> > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
> > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more.
> Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
>
>
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> Find your ancestors in the Birth, Marriage and Death Records.
> New content added every business day. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13964/rd.ashx
>
==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
==============================
Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
Hi Tim and list,
Your thoughts remind me how orderly English society is and was. How could
someone English do such a thing?
But I think social mobility may have been a factor, because name spelling
changes were so easy and usual in those days, and it wouldn't have been a
big deal. I understand that word spellings were not fixed at all until
quite late in the 19th century when dictionaries were becoming known.
I note all these (socially disorderly) name-changing-as-social-mobility
opinions are now coming from the antipodes: Aussie and NZ. Including mine.
Arguably these were more flexible, adaptable people, less bound by tradition.
In the antipodes there might also have been more social reasons to try to
be a bit different. Some sent to Australia were convicts. Some sent to
New Zealand were "remittance men". Some went to the South Pacific to
re-invent themselves and make a fresh start. Quite a lot of people even
today adopt a new name as part of this process.
"Remittance men" had made themselves such a nuisance in polite English
society (gambling debts, family scandals, fights) that their affluent
families made them go and live in the colonies. The arrangement was that,
provided they stayed away from London, their family would send a periodic
monetary "remittance" to support them. This apparently succeeded in
keeping them away from polite society.
Some migrants to New Zealand and Australia were very poor uneducated people
who could barely spell. In these conditions, it might be easy to put on a
bit of dash by pretending to have a fancy name. A woman in the city I
grew up in, with three wartime children of diverse parentage, adopted the
surname of a fancy American country club.
Under these circumstances I think some social mobility name-changing might
well have occurred.
There were also name spelling changes as subtle indicators of group
membership. This sometimes occurred where a group was trying to be
inconspicuous. I think there was a tendency for English Catholic families
to use the letter Y in their names where there might more commonly be an I.
Smith-Smythe. Sidney-Sydney.
LLM
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>I understand what you say Kay but I am not convinced that many Cat(t)ley
>families were necessarily aware of the existence of others outside their own
>clan and if that was indeed the case, then none would necessarily think of a
>name change in order to emulate "prosperity".
>
>Have made contact with a good number of members of different Trees over the
>years and many tell a very similar family story in that inter family fudes
>decided various branches to make a name spelling adjustment to sever
>connections. A member of one such family even said that the family story in
>his case was that a name change was made because one lot were sheep
>rustling! I have never thought of any such story as very likely?
>
>Before the introduction of the Internet and before that, of telephone
>directories, it was surely very difficult for people to access any form of
>public record in an attempt to check out Nationally just how many other
>Cat(t)ley families may have existed. Suspect this applied very much so to
>the Hertfordshire/Cambridgshire/Gloucestershire/Lincolnshire/Essex families
>plus probably those in Greater London as well.
>
>Tim
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: William N H Heath <hampden(a)bigpond.net.au>
>To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 4:15 AM
>Subject: Fw: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
>
>>I think Tim, that as well as pure clerical error,
>> we shouldn't underestimate the desire of people to make their
>>names more 'up-market'....we are unaccustomed to being able to
>>change so much as a letter in the spelling of our names without some sort
>of
>>official record of the change etc.. but in those days who cared how you
>>spelt it? or how
>>many times you had changed it.
>>
>>'Cattley' may have been seen as either being in, or looking as if you
>>belonged,
>> to the prosperous side of the family!
>>
>>One of my ancestors was born 'Hudy', and when at 14 he went to do
>>his apprenticeship (1803), he became 'Hewdey' - and that spelling stuck
>>from then on.
>>That's a dramatic change in 14 years.
>>kayh
>>
>>p.s. on 1837 online, they have got the 1861 census, searchable, and only
>the
>>greater London area done at this time, but still terrific.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
>>To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>>Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:15 AM
>>Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>>
>>
>> >I have often wondered how it is that quite a few Catley names have got
>> > changed to Cattley over the past 200 years or so and have thought it > odd
>> > that "a clerical error" should result in the inclusion of an extra T as
>it
>> > does not make sense to me.
>> >
>> > On the other hand, nor can I understand why a literate family would
>> > necessarily wish to make such an alteration themselves?
>> >
>> > However, possibly you have inadvertently hit on an answer Liz?
>> >
>> > It is quite within the bounds of possibility that Catley could be
>misread
>> > as
>> > Cattey and then a second clerical type, knowing that the name has a
>> > phonetic
>> > L pronunciation in it, adds this letter to "get the sound correct" > hence
>> > Cattley.
>> >
>> > The only other explanation I can think of is via The Bishops > Transcripts
>> > for
>> > the Gilbertine Priory of Catley built circa 1143.
>> >
>> > If you study them you will note that the left hand page is printed in
>its
>> > original Latin form whilst on the right, is the English translation. > In
>> > most cases the Latin name is spelt as Catthley and the English
>translation
>> > as Catley. I do not know when the Transcripts were first published from
>> > the
>> > original vellum but at a guess I would say in the early 1800's and so
>> > maybe
>> > some literate Latin reading Catleys at that time, decided to take on > the
>> > Latin form of spelling but drop the H?
>> >
>> > As most already know, the name Cat(t)ley is supposedly taken from the
>Old
>> > English meaning for Wild Cat Wood. Presumably old English pre dates
>Latin
>> > as
>> > a mother tongue but is there written evidence? How is the meaning wild
>cat
>> > wood deduced?
>> >
>> > Did the Monks at the Priory who wrote up the Transcripts thus > "Latinise"
>> > an
>> > old English place name?
>> >
>> > Has anyone access to learned Professors of early English Language? Can
>> > any
>> > more information be gained that would maybe take us further foward into
>> > understanding the origins of the name?
>> >
>> > Any thoughts anybody?
>> >
>> > Regards Tim.
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: liz cordingley <lizcordingley(a)blueyonder.co.uk>
>> > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
>> > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:02 AM
>> > Subject: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>> >
>> >
>> >> Hi All,
>> >> I have just come back from Wales after spending a couple of pleasant
>days
>> > there. I discovered a couple of graves and some interesting info with
>> > regards to Ernest Catley that went there for work after leaving > Lambeth.
>> >> He went to work in the mines and met Mary Jane Williams. They married
>and
>> > had 6 children. Mary died shortly after giving birth to Gwendoline E
>> > Catley
>> > in 1922. When I contacted the council to find where exactly she was
>buried
>> > they gave me the plot number and burial date plus her address. Every
>thing
>> > fitted into place until they told me she was a widow. Ernest had died
>> > whilst
>> > she was pregnant. I couldnt find a death for any Ernest in Wales for
>this
>> > time period, but have found one in Bridge Kent which fits the bill. I
>have
>> > ordered his cert. After working in the mines he became a Tailor
>Journeyman
>> > this is on marriage certs for his children.
>> >> Why would he have gone from Wales to Kent. Bridge is a small village
>and
>> >> I
>> > have discovered that I had relatives from there on my Grandmothers > side.
>> > It
>> > was mainly a farming community. I wonder if he met my grandmother!!!
>> >> I had a look around Abergevenny for Catley's that came from Somerset
>way
>> > and couldn't find any.
>> >> It is worth contacting councils for information on burials or
>cremations,
>> > but helps if you have a rough idea of when the person died. Most are > all
>> > computerised so it is easy for them to do lookups. It is also worth > them
>> > putting in variations as Charles Alexander was down as Cattey and the
>lady
>> > was able to change this whilst I was still on the phone.
>> >> Talk soon
>> >> Liz
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
>> >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
>> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>> >>
>> >> ==============================
>> >> View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find
>> >> marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
>> >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
>> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
>> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>> >
>> > ==============================
>> > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
>> > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
>> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
>> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
>> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>>
>>==============================
>>Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more.
>>Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more:
>http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
>
>
>==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
>==============================
>View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find
>marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
>http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
>
Yes exactly Kay because as most people could not read anyway, they would not
have a care in the world as to how their name was spelled ... blissful
ignorance!
As for names: I once had a business customer, the manager of a 75,000 hen
battery farm, his name Mr Peck and another the manager of a tyre and exhaust
centre, his name E.Rust. Then there was the Motorcycle Tyre Sales Manager of
the company I work for, he was Mr Shufflebottom.
Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: William N H Heath <hampden(a)bigpond.net.au>
To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:09 AM
Subject: [CAT...] names...
> Ahh, Tim, you should never underestimate the opprobrium attached to those
> who are sheep rustlers, or 'cattle duffers' ..!!!! They are low forms of
> life in this
> part of the world. The family argument point is a good one though..
>
> I think that incorrectly spelt names on documents were unimportant in
those
> days,
> whereas now it is seen as perhaps trying to evade or avoid detection.
Maybe
> it
> started to change in 1837 with official registration of BDM's.
>
> I loved Roslyn's 'Mutton' story... !!
>
> kayh
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
> To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 10:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
>
>
> >I understand what you say Kay but I am not convinced that many Cat(t)ley
> > families were necessarily aware of the existence of others outside their
> > own
> > clan and if that was indeed the case, then none would necessarily think
of
> > a
> > name change in order to emulate "prosperity".
> >
> > Have made contact with a good number of members of different Trees over
> > the
> > years and many tell a very similar family story in that inter family
fudes
> > decided various branches to make a name spelling adjustment to sever
> > connections. A member of one such family even said that the family story
> > in
> > his case was that a name change was made because one lot were sheep
> > rustling! I have never thought of any such story as very likely?
> >
> > Before the introduction of the Internet and before that, of telephone
> > directories, it was surely very difficult for people to access any form
of
> > public record in an attempt to check out Nationally just how many other
> > Cat(t)ley families may have existed. Suspect this applied very much so
to
> > the Hertfordshire/Cambridgshire/Gloucestershire/Lincolnshire/Essex
> > families
> > plus probably those in Greater London as well.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: William N H Heath <hampden(a)bigpond.net.au>
> > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 4:15 AM
> > Subject: Fw: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >
> >
> >> I think Tim, that as well as pure clerical error,
> >> we shouldn't underestimate the desire of people to make their
> >> names more 'up-market'....we are unaccustomed to being able to
> >> change so much as a letter in the spelling of our names without some
sort
> > of
> >> official record of the change etc.. but in those days who cared how you
> >> spelt it? or how
> >> many times you had changed it.
> >>
> >> 'Cattley' may have been seen as either being in, or looking as if you
> >> belonged,
> >> to the prosperous side of the family!
> >>
> >> One of my ancestors was born 'Hudy', and when at 14 he went to do
> >> his apprenticeship (1803), he became 'Hewdey' - and that spelling
stuck
> >> from then on.
> >> That's a dramatic change in 14 years.
> >> kayh
> >>
> >> p.s. on 1837 online, they have got the 1861 census, searchable, and
only
> > the
> >> greater London area done at this time, but still terrific.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Tim Cattley" <timjhcat(a)tiscali.co.uk>
> >> To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:15 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >>
> >>
> >> >I have often wondered how it is that quite a few Catley names have got
> >> > changed to Cattley over the past 200 years or so and have thought it
> >> > odd
> >> > that "a clerical error" should result in the inclusion of an extra T
as
> > it
> >> > does not make sense to me.
> >> >
> >> > On the other hand, nor can I understand why a literate family would
> >> > necessarily wish to make such an alteration themselves?
> >> >
> >> > However, possibly you have inadvertently hit on an answer Liz?
> >> >
> >> > It is quite within the bounds of possibility that Catley could be
> > misread
> >> > as
> >> > Cattey and then a second clerical type, knowing that the name has a
> >> > phonetic
> >> > L pronunciation in it, adds this letter to "get the sound correct"
> >> > hence
> >> > Cattley.
> >> >
> >> > The only other explanation I can think of is via The Bishops
> >> > Transcripts
> >> > for
> >> > the Gilbertine Priory of Catley built circa 1143.
> >> >
> >> > If you study them you will note that the left hand page is printed in
> > its
> >> > original Latin form whilst on the right, is the English translation.
> >> > In
> >> > most cases the Latin name is spelt as Catthley and the English
> > translation
> >> > as Catley. I do not know when the Transcripts were first published
from
> >> > the
> >> > original vellum but at a guess I would say in the early 1800's and so
> >> > maybe
> >> > some literate Latin reading Catleys at that time, decided to take on
> >> > the
> >> > Latin form of spelling but drop the H?
> >> >
> >> > As most already know, the name Cat(t)ley is supposedly taken from the
> > Old
> >> > English meaning for Wild Cat Wood. Presumably old English pre dates
> > Latin
> >> > as
> >> > a mother tongue but is there written evidence? How is the meaning
wild
> > cat
> >> > wood deduced?
> >> >
> >> > Did the Monks at the Priory who wrote up the Transcripts thus
> >> > "Latinise"
> >> > an
> >> > old English place name?
> >> >
> >> > Has anyone access to learned Professors of early English Language?
Can
> >> > any
> >> > more information be gained that would maybe take us further foward
into
> >> > understanding the origins of the name?
> >> >
> >> > Any thoughts anybody?
> >> >
> >> > Regards Tim.
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: liz cordingley <lizcordingley(a)blueyonder.co.uk>
> >> > To: <CATLEY-L(a)rootsweb.com>
> >> > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 10:02 AM
> >> > Subject: [CAT...] Ernest Catley
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Hi All,
> >> >> I have just come back from Wales after spending a couple of pleasant
> > days
> >> > there. I discovered a couple of graves and some interesting info with
> >> > regards to Ernest Catley that went there for work after leaving
> >> > Lambeth.
> >> >> He went to work in the mines and met Mary Jane Williams. They
married
> > and
> >> > had 6 children. Mary died shortly after giving birth to Gwendoline E
> >> > Catley
> >> > in 1922. When I contacted the council to find where exactly she was
> > buried
> >> > they gave me the plot number and burial date plus her address. Every
> > thing
> >> > fitted into place until they told me she was a widow. Ernest had died
> >> > whilst
> >> > she was pregnant. I couldnt find a death for any Ernest in Wales for
> > this
> >> > time period, but have found one in Bridge Kent which fits the bill. I
> > have
> >> > ordered his cert. After working in the mines he became a Tailor
> > Journeyman
> >> > this is on marriage certs for his children.
> >> >> Why would he have gone from Wales to Kent. Bridge is a small village
> > and
> >> >> I
> >> > have discovered that I had relatives from there on my Grandmothers
> >> > side.
> >> > It
> >> > was mainly a farming community. I wonder if he met my grandmother!!!
> >> >> I had a look around Abergevenny for Catley's that came from Somerset
> > way
> >> > and couldn't find any.
> >> >> It is worth contacting councils for information on burials or
> > cremations,
> >> > but helps if you have a rough idea of when the person died. Most are
> >> > all
> >> > computerised so it is easy for them to do lookups. It is also worth
> >> > them
> >> > putting in variations as Charles Alexander was down as Cattey and the
> > lady
> >> > was able to change this whilst I was still on the phone.
> >> >> Talk soon
> >> >> Liz
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> >> >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> >> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >> >>
> >> >> ==============================
> >> >> View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors,
find
> >> >> marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> >> >> http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> >> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> >> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >> >
> >> > ==============================
> >> > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in
the
> >> > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
> >> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> >> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >>
> >> ==============================
> >> Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more.
> >> Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more:
> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx
> >>
> >
> >
> > ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> > See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
> >
> > ==============================
> > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find
> > marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ==== CATLEY Mailing List ====
> See our CAT(T)LEY One-Name pages at :
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hills/index.html
>
> ==============================
> View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find
> marriage announcements and more. Learn more:
> http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx
>
I have been concentrating on trying to find the origins of the first Catley
I have recorded from Hertfordshire . He appears to be the antecedent of all
the Catleys recorded from Hertfordshire in the 18th century and possibly
also those from nearby Cambridgeshire.
My earliest record in parish registers is James Catley and wife Alice
recorded as parents of Edward, baptised at the Church of St Margaret,
Barley 8 Nov 1710.
Several other researchers that I know of seem to be in general agreement
that James is the earliest recorded Catley from Hertfordshire.
It would be of interest in establishing links between the several Catley
clans if James' origins could be traced by either a christening or marriage
record. I am aware of a web site hosted by a Catley researcher which has
James christened in Essex abt.1688 but the host does not recall where the
information came from.
I would be interested to hear from anyone who might have information on
James and his spouse prior to 1710.
Regards,
Mick Catley
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