Dawn,
No offense taken and I surely hope you can take what you give, because I am
straight and blunt as well. I also feel the same way as you about the
punctuation of email vice face to face intercourse.
I am not going to claim any great research or knowledge on Richard Carver or
many of his brothers. My main research has been focused on the Cornelius
Carver line or others who interfaced with my Sprouse. As for a "complete"
records search, I do not believe any of us have the time or money to conduct
that at this time. However, I have tried to gather as much about my Carvers
as I can in VA. I usually stop when they leave Virginia just for that
previous reason. Enough clarity and disclaimer.
12 Mar 1833, Joseph or James Carver in that deposition claimed "Pickens
District - Joseph Carver appeared & made Oath that he took a [something,
can't read it] & carried the above named Richard Carver to the Army in
Bedford County VA where he was taken as a substitute & this deponent does
verily believe he did serve as he has stated within" Sworn to 12 Mar 1833
James his mark Carver" James, in his own application, he says "I believe it
was later part of 1780 or beginning of 1781 that he was mustered into
service in Bedford County, Virginia". His service was two to three months at
a time and his statement is dated 13 Aug 1833.
Richard Carver claimed in his pension that he was in Bedford in at the age
of 12. That is a little young to be joining the Army. Now if he were there
already, why would Joseph/James have to take him again?
Do we in fact know that these two are related? I have them so, but have no
real proof that it is these two sons of Archibald.
" (I say nearly always. I've not yet seen a deponent who *didn't* live near
the applicant.) How many have you read because I have seen quite a few sworn
statements submitted from other counties and states. Don't want to get into
a water fight here about who has read the most, just making a counter-point.
I do believe by 1833 we had the Iron Horse as well for travel and horse and
foot not necessary.
The substitution may not have been in the application, but it certainly
would be in the service records or muster. I have often seen side notes
"substitute for" or substituted for"
"I do deeply appreciate your response. I have had a very hard time getting
other Carver researchers (outside of this list) to discuss this
family
with
any objectivity, nor has anyone offered any source information for
Virginia
records, even when asked repeatedly (and politely). I would very much
appreciate it if we could combine our efforts, and I mean that
collectively
(the whole list, anyone who's willing to participate)."
And I yours and would certainly entertain the idea of working on this. I
live in Virginia and fairly close to Richmond and Albemarle County. In fact
I was born in Charlottesville and do a lot of research there, at least till
gas prices hit $4.
There is not a lot of information in Virginia about this time. Most has
either been destroyed by fires or floods, but I am most willing to share
what I have. This makes communication through the list impossible, I
believe. They do not allow attachments. I do have a couple of websites,
Rootsweb and Ancestry where most all of my sources reside. If you are truly
interested, let me know. I have an open mind about all my genealogy, but do
not change viewpoints without some very good persuasion.
Look forward to working with you in the future.
Regards,
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dawn Watson" <dncresearch(a)gmail.com>
To: <carver(a)rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [CARVER] CARVER Digest, Vol 7, Issue 10
Steve,
Thank you so much for replying. I have only been working on this problem
from the South Carolina end. No one else, and I mean NO ONE, has been
willing to share any research whatsoever from the Virginia side, just
assumptions and conclusions.
Now, I want to state up front that the following is not an indictment of
your research and analysis skills in any way, shape, or form. E-mail is,
in
my opinion, the least favorable way to discuss research because it is too
easy to imbue intent and emotion where none is intended. The following may
*read* harshly, but it is certainly not meant that way. I am simply a
blunt, straight-forward person, and intend no offense whatsoever.
I have interpreted Richard's pension application very differently from
you.
Bear with me for a moment, because I do have a point here.
As far as I can ascertain in all of my digging, there was no James
Carver in Pickens District in 1833 of the correct age to have "carried"
Richard to Bedford County at the time of Richard's service. The deponents
used to prove service in pension applications were nearly always drawn
from
people who lived near the applicant. (I say nearly always. I've not yet
seen a deponent who *didn't* live near the applicant.) If, as you assert,
the "James" for whom Richard substituted was the same James Carver who was
mentioned in his pension application, then where was he? Virtually no one
travelled for these things. It was simply too expensive and time
consuming.
Think about an elderly man making a trip from Kentucky to Pickens
District,
SC, in 1833, on horseback or on foot, over some of the roughest
terrain through what was still, essentially, a frontier in what would have
been the dead of winter, February and March. What is the likelihood of
that
happening?
If an affidavit was sent by mail (or some other way) from another area,
then it would have been copied into Richard's pension application as such,
meaning the location mentioned in the affidavit would have reflected that
area by a direct statement of locality (e.g. XYZ County, Kentucky).
It would also have included another affidavit made by a high ranking
official swearing to the identity of the person who witnessed the
deponent's testimony. The affidavit of Joseph/James Carver was made in
Pickens District and the witness was left blank, with no further record of
who took that man's testimony.
We must also consider the nature of the application itself. The affidavit
of Joseph/James Carver would have been taken on a separate piece of paper
and then *copied* into Richard's pension application. Given the confusion
over the name of this man, it is likely the original scribe (the one who
actually took the affidavit) used abbreviations for the names: "Jos." or
"Jas." which look very similar when handwritten. The scribe who copied
that
affidavit into the pension application was *supposed* to have copied it
verbatim, but can we say, given that this witness was referred to by two
different names, that the scribe made a verbatim transcription? Obviously,
there are errors there, or we would not have to discuss the fact that two
names were used to refer to the same man.
Additionally, if Richard served as a substitute, then the man for whom he
substituted *would have left no pension application stating service*
because that service would not have happened, at least not for the company
in which Richard served as a substitute; unless it happened before or
after
Richard's dates of service within that company. On the one hand, this
could
explain the lack of this information in James' application: he did not
serve in Tate's company in Bedford County because Richard served for him;
there was no need to mention this substitution because the pension was
based on *actual* service. On the other hand, if James was unable or unfit
to serve and had to provide a substitute, then what was he doing serving
with another unit at roughly the same time?
My conclusion is that the man who "carried" (I love that word) Richard to
Bedford County was the Joseph Carver who was found with Richard in
Spartanburg and Pickens Districts, SC. (The person who transported Richard
and the person for whom Richard substituted could have been two different
people. I am not discounting that possibility at all.) All other
information aside and as far as I can ascertain, there was no James Carver
of the right age living in Pickens District in March 1833 to make that
affidavit. Even if there were a James Carver living there, he would not
have been the same man as the James Carver who was living at that time in
Kentucky.
My analysis does not, of course, negate your conclusion that James and
Richard were siblings and children of Archibald Carver, but it does cast
some doubt upon it. Your research seems to ignore the cluster of people
with whom Richard was known to have interacted during his time in South
Carolina, people who are just as likely to have been his kin and who,
therefore, must be added into the equation or eliminated all together. The
most that one can say from the information you've provided is that Richard
(b. 1764 VA and died after 1850 in Pickens Dist., SC) *might* have been a
sibling to James (of KY fame) and that they *might* have been children of
Archibald.
As to this Richard's parentage, I haven't a clue. But I simply do not
believe there is enough evidence, let alone solid proof, that Richard was
even connected with Archibald. Merely being in the same area is not
enough!
Has anyone, for instance, eliminated other men of the right age to be
Richard's father? Has a thorough search for estate records been made? Have
the deeds for that area been thoroughly analyzed for clues? And so
forth. These are processes I am currently undergoing on the South Carolina
side, albeit on a very slow timeline.
I do deeply appreciate your response. I have had a very hard time getting
other Carver researchers (outside of this list) to discuss this family
with
any objectivity, nor has anyone offered any source information for
Virginia
records, even when asked repeatedly (and politely). I would very much
appreciate it if we could combine our efforts, and I mean that
collectively
(the whole list, anyone who's willing to participate).
Please note that I only receive list messages through a digest.
Once again, my thanks for sharing your information.
Dawn Watson
> Dawn,
>
> Since no one else has stepped up, I guess I will.
>
> You may be correct in your assumption, but here are the facts from
> Richard
> Carver's Revolutionary War Pension Application:
>
> Richard Carver states his age at about 69 years of age (later says he has
> no
> idea when he was born)
> He states he substituted for James Carver who was drafted under Nathaniel
> Tate in Bedford County, VA about 1780 (James Carver does not mention this
> act in his pension app)
> Marched from Bedford to Hillsboro, NC
> Discharged after Gates defeat in 1780
> In 1781 he volunteered in Washington County, VA for a period of 3 months
> He states he was born in Albemarle County where he entered service
> Moved to Bedford at the age of 12 [abt 1775
> Moved to Spartanburg, SC abt 1792
> Lived in Spartanburg about 20 years, then moved to Pendleton
> A witness who was said to be Joseph Carver actually signed as James
> Carver,
> I would guess the same James as he substituted for. James Carver was
> drafted in 1780 and volunteered in 1781, which also is the same timeline
> as
> Richard Carver.
>
> James states he was born in Louisa County, VA in 1753, at time of pension
> app he would have been 79 and enlistment about 27. Richard at 69 would
> be
> born about 1763, at 12 in Bedford, 1775. James says he moved to Kentucky
> in
> 1792-93.
>
> Here are the facts from Virginia records:
>
> Archibald Carver was born abt 1720 some think in Stafford County, VA,
> I'll
> go along with that until I find different. In 1749 he owned 400a in
> Louisa
> County. Archibald and his wife sold 400a in Louisa, Aug 1752 to John
> Almand
> on Negro Run. In 1755 Archibald still owned land in Louisa. In 1760 he
> bought 200a on Pretty Creek from Edward Clarke, this land would later be
> located in Albemarle County as we find in 1768 he is paying Tithables to
> James Meriwether in Fredericksville Parish, Albemarle County, VA. Again
> in
> 1768 Archibald of Louisa sold 400a to Walter Brown on Negro Run, Louisa
> County. Archibald died in 1771 [Source: "Albemarle County in Virginia:
> Giving Some Account of what it was by Nature" Edgar Woods, Appendix 9, p.
> 396]
>
> 1771 would put James Carver at about 18 and Richard Carver at 8. James
> Carver is found in the Albemarle County Road Order Books in 1806 and Sep
> 1832 in Kentucky.
>
> Since Richard was in Bedford at the age of 12 that would put the date to
> 1775. He and James, as brothers, could allow for Richard to travel west
> taking his brother to Bedford and go separate ways after the war.
>
> What is this rambling trying to prove? It shows the likely-hood that
> these
> are the children of Archibald Carver. It appears to me that the evidence
> is
> just as strong for, as against. What is the evidence that he/they are
> not?
> Who is the father of your Richard?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
>
>
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