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Hi everyone. Hi, Bill, good to see you around again, cousin. Thirty-five
years of researching, that just boggles my mind. As for me, I am barely
beginning my quest. Man, oh, man, I don't think I have that kind of time left
though. Well, maybe if I apply for an extension... It sure is a lot of fun
to do this kind of research though. I mean, it fun as well as time consuming
and frustrating at times. And I do get to meet the nicest people. Still, I
have high hopes of finding out for sure from whence and from whom I came from
before I have to ask St. Peter on my way through the Gates. Say, do you
suppose that a little DNA testing might help us to sort and to assign the
Henrys and Johns and Toms to their respective and proper branches on their
family trees? I do believe the technology that might help us to accomplish
that is available. Jeepers, just think of all the time that would free up for
us. Oh, we could still get together and have fun. We might even have time to
talk with our spouses again.........those of us who have spouses.........And,
for those of us who don't.........Oh, well,........guess that would leave
things open for a lot of other interesting options.
Leilani Wallace
----------
From: CARTMILL-L-request@rootsweb.com[SMTP:CARTMILL-L-request@rootsweb.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 2:35 pm
To: William.Owens-Smith(a)rudnickwolfe.com
Cc: owner-CARTMILL(a)bl-30.rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Leilani Wallace's CARTMILL questions.
> I hope to shed some light on these questions. However, confusion is what I
> frequently add; I raise more questions than answers sometimes. I have
> worked on these Purgatory Creek families: Smith, Sewell, Cartmill, Wallace,
> Gray, Green, Anderson, Wood, Bogan, et al. for more than 35 years...and I
> have many questions. But, the questions asked by Leilani relate to Cartmill
> relationships. And I have two answers and possibly a third. Bare with me,
> please.
> First of all these questions are about the Purgatory Creek Cartmills. This
> family is perhaps closely related to the Frederick Co, VA Cartmills. But it
> is certainly related to the Augusta Co, VA families of the Henry (d1786
> Botetourt Co)and John (d1773, Augusta Co). Whether John (d1773) was a
> brother of Henry (d1786) or some other relative is difficult to say. Also
> the Thomas and Samuel of Augusta Co may have had families which still go
> unconnected to Henry (d1786).
> But more importantly, are all the Botetourt Co, VA Cartmills from 1760 to
> say 1825 all descended from Henry (d1786)? They likely are.
> Now these Cartmills used names for male children drawn from a very small
> lexicon, generally: Henry, John, James and to a lesser extent Thomas,
> Robert and David. [Note that the Frederic Co, VA Cartmill family used names
> Nathan or Nathaniel and Martin much more frequently.] Both Robert and David
> may have been from maternal families...say Wallace.
> When Henry Cartmill of Botetourt died in 1786 the three sons named in his
> will were James, John (1751-c1838), and the Youngest son Henry (1754-1841).
> All of these sons served in the Rev. War.
> The son Henry (1754-1841) said in his pension application, S 29692, that
> his father (Henry, d1786) moved from Chester Co, PA to Augusta Co, VA 1757,
> and moved to Botetourt Co in 1761. This must mean that the Henry (d1786)
> Cartmill family moved to Purgatory Creek in 1761 while that area was in
> Augusta Co, VA. Botetourt County came into being in January 1770. When
> Henry (d1786) moved his family about 1761 his sons were not adults. This
> may have been a move away from John (d1773) and his family. John (d1773)
> was probably not in the Purgatory Creek area, but some of his sons or
> daughters could have been. Also, John (d1773) and Henry (d1786) might have
> had brothers or other relatives in the Purgatory Creek area (Botetourt Co
> after 1770).
> In Aug 1766 James is listed as a brother of John Cartmill in the Augusta Co,
> VA order book. It impossible to tell which generation these men belong to.
> These could be the sons of John (d1773) or it could be the same John.
> It is likely that every Cartmill had a son named Henry. So without other
> information it is impossible to identify a given Cartmill.
> We know there was Henry (d1786); we know he lived in Chester Co, PA before
> 1757 and paid taxes there. We know he lived on Purgatory Creek after 1761
> and had sons James, John (1751-c1838) and Henry (1754-1841). It is highly
> likely that each of these three sons had sons named Henry.
> I believe James was the eldest son listed in his father's will, and was born
> as early as 1740. In 1790 in Botetourt Co tax list there are three Cartmill
> men: James with 3 tithables, which likely means he had two adult sons by
> 1790; John with 2 tithables, which likely means he had one adult son at
> home; and Henry with only one tithable. James is not a tithable after 1792
> in Botetourt. James seems to have remained in Botetourt Co till 1792 when
> his name disappears from the tax list. Did he die or move away?
> John (1751-c1838) was a Capt. In the Rev. War, an officer of the Botetourt
> Co Court. He left Botetourt Co about 1811 and may have been in Kanawha Co
> before moving to Bedford Co, TN and later to MO where he most likely died
> and where his estate was settled. His estate papers in Lafayette Co, MO are
> important as they name his children several of who had died before him. One
> of his sons was Henry Cartmill (d1825) who married Isabella Bogan
> (1773-1831). Some researchers give a birth date for Henry (d1825) as 1769,
> but this seems a bit early since his father John was born in 1751.
> John(1751-c1838) was also the father of Anne who married Robert Wallace in
> 1789. Robert Wallace lived in Bedford Co, TN where he died in 1828.
> Who is the Henry Cartmill married in 1788 to Margaret Wallace, daughter of
> David Wallace? Could be a son of James son of Henry (d1786). This seems
> more likely than Henry (d1825) who married 1799 to Isabella Bogan in 1799.
> Henry(d1834) was son of Henry (1754-1841), and he was not old enough to have
> been married in 1788.
> I certainly hope this has not confused a anyone. And I would like to hear
> any observations on what I have written.
> Bill Owens-Smith
> Lowensxs(a)Counsel.com <mailto:Lowensxs@Counsel.com>
>
>
> ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE1D7A.E7A6F2EA
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> <TITLE>Leilani Wallace's CARTMILL questions.</TITLE>
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> <BODY>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I hope to shed some light on these =
> questions. However, confusion is what I frequently add; I raise =
> more questions than answers sometimes. I have worked on these =
> Purgatory Creek families: Smith, Sewell, Cartmill, Wallace, Gray, =
> Green, Anderson, Wood, Bogan, et al. for more than 35 years...and I =
> have many questions. But, the questions asked by Leilani relate =
> to Cartmill relationships. And I have two answers and possibly a =
> third. Bare with me, please.</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">First of all these questions are about =
> the Purgatory Creek Cartmills. This family is perhaps closely =
> related to the Frederick Co, VA Cartmills. But it is certainly =
> related to the Augusta Co, VA families of the Henry (d1786 Botetourt =
> Co)and John (d1773, Augusta Co). Whether John (d1773) was a =
> brother of Henry (d1786) or some other relative is difficult to =
> say. Also the Thomas and Samuel of Augusta Co may have had =
> families which still go unconnected to Henry (d1786). </FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">But more importantly, are all the =
> Botetourt Co, VA Cartmills from 1760 to say 1825 all descended from =
> Henry (d1786)? They likely are.</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Now these Cartmills used names for =
> male children drawn from a very small lexicon, generally: Henry, John, =
> James and to a lesser extent Thomas, Robert and David. =
> [Note that the Frederic Co, VA Cartmill family used names Nathan or =
> Nathaniel and Martin much more frequently.] Both Robert and David =
> may have been from maternal families...say Wallace. </FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">When Henry Cartmill of Botetourt died =
> in 1786 the three sons named in his will were James, John (1751-c1838), =
> and the Youngest son Henry (1754-1841). All of these sons served =
> in the Rev. War. </FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The son Henry (1754-1841) said in his =
> pension application, S 29692, that his father (Henry, d1786) =
> moved from Chester Co, PA to Augusta Co, VA 1757, and moved to =
> Botetourt Co in 1761. This must mean that the Henry (d1786) =
> Cartmill family moved to Purgatory Creek in 1761 while that area was in =
> Augusta Co, VA. Botetourt County came into being in January =
> 1770. When Henry (d1786) moved his family about 1761 his sons =
> were not adults. This may have been a move away from John =
> (d1773) and his family. John (d1773) was probably not in the =
> Purgatory Creek area, but some of his sons or daughters could have =
> been. Also, John (d1773) and Henry (d1786) might have had =
> brothers or other relatives in the Purgatory Creek area (Botetourt Co =
> after 1770).</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In Aug 1766 James is listed as a =
> brother of John Cartmill in the Augusta Co, VA order book. It =
> impossible to tell which generation these men belong to. These =
> could be the sons of John (d1773) or it could be the same =
> John.</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">It is likely that every Cartmill had a =
> son named Henry. So without other information it is impossible to =
> identify a given Cartmill.</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">We know there was Henry (d1786); we =
> know he lived in Chester Co, PA before 1757 and paid taxes =
> there. We know he lived on Purgatory Creek after 1761 and had =
> sons James, John (1751-c1838) and Henry (1754-1841). It is highly =
> likely that each of these three sons had sons named Henry. =
> </FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I believe James was the eldest son =
> listed in his father's will, and was born as early as 1740. In =
> 1790 in Botetourt Co tax list there are three Cartmill men: James with =
> 3 tithables, which likely means he had two adult sons by 1790; John =
> with 2 tithables, which likely means he had one adult son at home; and =
> Henry with only one tithable. James is not a tithable after 1792 =
> in Botetourt. James seems to have remained in Botetourt Co till =
> 1792 when his name disappears from the tax list. Did he die or =
> move away?</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">John (1751-c1838) was a Capt. In the =
> Rev. War, an officer of the Botetourt Co Court. He left Botetourt =
> Co about 1811 and may have been in Kanawha Co before moving to Bedford =
> Co, TN and later to MO where he most likely died and where his estate =
> was settled. His estate papers in Lafayette Co, MO are important =
> as they name his children several of who had died before him. One =
> of his sons was Henry Cartmill (d1825) who married Isabella Bogan =
> (1773-1831). Some researchers give a birth date for Henry (d1825) =
> as 1769, but this seems a bit early since his father John was born in =
> 1751. </FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">John(1751-c1838) was also the father =
> of Anne who married Robert Wallace in 1789. Robert Wallace lived =
> in Bedford Co, TN where he died in 1828.</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Who is the Henry Cartmill married in =
> 1788 to Margaret Wallace, daughter of David Wallace? Could be a =
> son of James son of Henry (d1786). This seems more likely than =
> Henry (d1825) who married 1799 to Isabella Bogan in 1799. =
> Henry(d1834) was son of Henry (1754-1841), and he was not old enough to =
> have been married in 1788.</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I certainly hope this has not confused =
> a anyone. And I would like to hear any observations on what =
> I have written.</FONT>
> </P>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Bill Owens-Smith</FONT>
> </P>
> <P><A HREF=3D"mailto:Lowensxs@Counsel.com"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
> SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Lowensxs(a)Counsel.com</FONT></U></A><FONT =
> SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
> </P>
> <BR>
> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> </FONT>
> </P>
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
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Bill,
I love your run down on these guys.
Have you seen two pieces of infomation????
In 1718 ( I am doing this off the top of my head but the dates is close)
Ann Cartmill binds out three children Rachel, Henry, John. I believe
she was in and around the upper end of Maryland, around Kent Co.
1745 John and a Samuel received Land Patents in Orange/Augusta
(it wasn't Augusta yet)County. These are the same lands we find
John d, 1773 on in 1770 and very near where Henry was. That is why
I think that Henry I and the Augusta County John ( by the way there
is some records that point to a John dying around 1765) are related
in some way probably brothers.....
Your much more knowledgeable on the Henry crew. I have a lot of
the records but have concerned my research with Thomas and Mary
Warwick Cartmill since I believe that my John is their son.
As for the relationship to Nathaniel, I think that the lines from Augusta
and Botetourt may have been Nephews of his. We have records of
a Joseph running back and forth between Virginia and England in
1707 then a John takes over the same Ship 1708. They were
taking Tobacco to England and bringing people back to VA. I feel
these could be brothers to Nathaniel. Since the records shoe even the disowned son (Thomas) who married outside the church, I feel that
if Henry or John were sons they would have also shown in those
records.
Now guys we have a good discussion going come on lets hear other opinions.....
Earliene
jeniann(a)wa.net
Okay all you guys, I just received a request that is so well
written and researched that I think we should try to answer as many of the questions as we can and in doing that it may help
the rest of us find our Henry, John or Thomas. Heaven knows
we all have enough of them! HA!!! I am going to copy and paste and lets all discuss this. We have been way too quiet
and this is a good way to get something going.
Earliene Kaelin
jeniann(a)wa.net
Thanks for your reply. Yes, maybe you can help. I have a number of
questions! My Wallace-Bogan family is connected to the Cartmills. David
Wallace was a close neighbor of Henry Cartmill and John Cartmill. My records
show the following:
27 Aug 1788: Cartmill, Henry & Margaret Wallace
Sur; David Wallace. Consent: 27 Aug 1788. David Wallace, father. Wit;
James Cartmell, Capt John Cartmell.
10 Dec 1789: Wallace, Robert & Anne Cartmill. Sur William Wallace.
Sig:
Thomas Cartmill signed for Robert Wallace. Wit: H. Bowyer. Consent:
Dec 10
1789. James Cartmill, father. Wit: Henry Cartmill, William Wallace.
Min Ret:
Robert Wallace & Anne Cartmill Md Dec 31, 1789, By Edw'd Crawford
Henry Cartmill & Isabella Bogan: 4 Feb 1799; bondsman Andrew Bogan
who
test. age of bride as over 21; min - Elijah Vansandt (Protestant
Episcopal)
One question that I have is whether Margaret and Isabella married the same
Henry? I wonder if perhaps Margaret died, maybe in childbirth, and then Henry
married Isabella? Or is it a different Henry? I have no record of children
of either pair and would like to know if there were. I do know that Margaret
was sister to John and William Wallace, all children of David. And, I do know
that Isabella and Henry followed John Wallace to Kanawha County in the early
1800s.
My interest in all of this comes from several directions. I descend from
William Wallace by his son James who married Dolly Bogan, sister of Isabella.
I also descend from John Bogan, brother of Dolly, who married Mariam Wallace,
sister of James, and from William Bogan, brother of Dolly and John, who
married Elizabeth Pullen.
Another question.....In the marriage record documents above, what does the
term "Sur" mean? I would think that it might mean the same as father, except
in the first document above, David is listed as "Sur" and then also listed as
"father." I don't know how Robert Wallace was related to David, John and
William. I don't believe that Robert was listed as a son of David in his
will, only John, William and Margaret were named as children. And, Anne's
father, James, how was he related to Henry? Do you have any record of what
became of Robert and Anne?
I suspected that Thomas Cartmill was maybe a brother of Henry Sr., John.
Another piece of information I have is that a Thomas Cartmill and wife, Mary,
had land "on an east Branch of Green brier, called Deer or Warrick." I have
tried to place this on a map. As near as I can guess is that this place was
east and a bit north and just over the mountain, so to speak, from where David
Wallace, Henry Cartmill Sr., John Cartmill lived along the Purgatory Creek
area in Rockbridge or Botetourt County. Do you know more about this?
Finally, is there any other earlier record of intermarriage or close
association between the Cartmill and Wallace or Bogan families? We do not
know where David Wallace came from or to which other Wallace group he might
belong. It is thought that he was probably a member of the Woods-Wallace
family, but evidence so far is purely circumstantial. As closely allied
families often intermarried multiple ways and migrated together--for example,
as in the case of John Wallace and Henry and Isabella--I thought that I should
check out the possibility that there may have been other or even earlier
connections between these.
Hope that I have not overwhelmed you with all of my questions. I would be
very happy if you can shed light on any of them.
Thanks much.
Leilani L. Wallace