Please excuse this e-mail if you have already received it on the Carr
list, but I want to share it with everyone on the Carr-DNA list as
well. I have reordered the mail chain from the original to read down
in chronological order for ease of reading. The text has been modified
for clarification and expanded from the original post on the Carr list.
On October 23, 2005 9:53:46 PM PDT, ffejlny(a)juno.com wrote:
> I think it is interesting that I sent in DNA to find out about
Carrs,
> and
> I am a 100% match with a Webb. We matched in all 36 spaces. What
> does
> that mean?
> In fact, I can see nothing in common with any of the folks that they
> say
> are a match.
> Jeff Carr of TX
>
On October 23, 2005 10:29:38 PM PDT, n7fcf(a)hctc.com wrote:
Hi Jeff,
Well with twelve markers in John says you and I are definatly not
related.
He says your haplo is norwegion and mine is mid european. You must be
related to the lothians and the rest of the viking's. The trouble with
Carr
is that we are not neccesarily renamed Kerr's There were three that I
know
of and as I recall a forth family of Irish gaels that changed their
name to
Carr during the penal laws in Ireland. But there is only about 27 of
us so
far in the project so things will probably change as we grow.
especially
when we start getting results back from scotland and ireland.
Jim Carr
On Oct 24, 2005, at 5:35 AM, ffejlny(a)juno.com wrote:
So, my idea that we came from a maurading Scottish crusader passing
through Germany is probably wrong. In 1731 we were K-A-R-R anyway.
That holds back through 1620 or so in Germany. Few records survived
before 1600. Hans Karr was a magistrate in Wuerttemberg. He lived
near the French border. We are supposed to be related to C-A-R-R-E in
France.
I still don't see why I am related to WEBB whose family came into CT
and has lived in the CT/NY area since that time.
Jeff Carr of TX
On October 24, 2005 9:16:12 PM PDT, jcarrgensearch(a)earthlink.net wrote:
Hi Jeff,
Matches are possible with people of other surnames since there are only
so many allele repeats possible and mutations occur in both directions,
increasing and decreasing. A 37/37 match between people of different
surnames is rare, but it actually only means you have a 3% chance of
sharing a paternal ancestor in the last 100 years, three to four
generations, and a 51% chance of being related in the last 300 years, 9
to 12 generations. That is why the paper trail is important as well.
Going back over 300 years many things are possible. Further refinement
of your DNA is possible with additional testing through DNA Heritage (8
additional markers in a minimum 25 marker test) or Fingerprint DNA.
The more markers the higher the resolution.
Your haplotype is 18/25 with the modal for I1a, which is also why you
have so many matches. The most common allele values at each marker
within a Haplogroup are called modal for that Haplogroup [Human DNA
breaks down into specific groups who are descended from common
ancestors 10,000 to 100,000 years ago, these are called Haplogroups].
They are not necessarily the markers of the progenitor of that
Haplogroup, just the most common mutation values for that Haplogroup in
the current period. The closer a person is to modal, the larger the
number of matches they will have. If you were trying to match with
someone who does not share your surname you'll have a many challenges
then within a surname, though we all know even then it is not always
straight forward since people changed their surname spelling or even
the whole name in the past. The same sort of challenge one faces when
trying to match mt-DNA [maternal line]. Personally, I check with
everyone who is close to my haplotype because you never know what
you'll find and at times you find surprises. Names change and other
opportunities for a common male line ancestor can pop up and sometimes
be confirmed with DNA testing. That is also why it is best to test
several individuals from a given line, then if there was an occasion
for another male's DNA to get into the line it can be exposed and you
are not stuck trying to solve an impossible puzzle.
Jeff mentions that his line is supposed to descend from Carre' of
France. Some authorities give the Carre' or le Carre' surname as the
origins of the Kerrs of Scotland, who came to England and Scotland with
William the Conquerer in the retinue of the de Bruys [ the Bruce]
family. We do not know the DNA makeup of the noble Kerrs of Scotland
since no one with such a pedigree has stepped forward and joined the
Carr DNA project. However, as this family is believed to have been of
Norse ancestry, Jeff's DNA is of a type one would expect for that
family, so he, or one of the other four I1a haplotypes in the Carr DNA
project, or someone on this list yet to do their DNA, may descend from
the same paternal line as the Kerrs of Scotland.
Jim Carr offers the following on this last comment of mine:
I think the current nobel line is Kerr by marriage the original
daughtered out. However the Caleb Carr line of NJ maintained they
descended from a younger Kerr son .Also Walter Ker of Monmouth NJ was
supposed to be a noble ker. He was one of the coveneters and was
deported less one ear rather than being put to the sword like the more
common ones.
Jim
A note on Jeff's and Jim's Haplotypes. Jim Carr is R1b. I1a and R1b
are both likely haplogroups within the Anglo Saxon population that
invaded the western isles from the region of modern Germany and Denmark
at the end of the Roman period. R1b is common throughout western
europe and is the single largest Haplogroup in that area. So two
lines, where one is I1a and the other is R1b have a good chance of
being related if genealogical information indicates it, just not
genetically through the paternal line within the last 10,000 years or
more. The lowlands of Scotland [and all northern Europe] contain a
good share of both of these Haplogroups as well as a sprinkling of
others. Our DNA project also has this same trend.
Ken Nordvedt, a Mathematics Professor at California State University at
Long Beach who searches the DNA databases and derives common Haplogroup
information from them. This is what he says about Jeff's variety of
I1a.
Allele values of "[12] 14, 22, 13, 14 [at] DYS [462], 19, 390, 385a,b
[represent] the most populous I1a haplotype and [are] found in good
quantities throughout Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, southern Sweden,
and lesser extent Norway and north Sweden. It is hardly found in
Finland. It has been called the "Anglo-Saxon" I1a variety, and it is a
good candidate for the ancestral I1a form.
I have used YHRD database to develop the geographical information on
these various I1a varieties, with generally supportive information from
Sorenson database."
Ken Nordtvedt
original post to the DNA-Genealogy mail list is at:
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ifetch2?/u1/textindices/G/
GENEALOGY-DNA+2005+2134747177086+F
YSTR DNA (DYS) do mutate at a rate of approximately once per 5
generations [ that is one allele at one marker only], so it is possible
that the DYS values are not an accurate indication of Haplogroup.
Verification of Haplogroup requires an SNP test. SNP tests are
available through Family Tree DNA, DNA Heritage and Ethnoancestry. The
multi marker SNP test through DNA Heritage and Ethnoancestry are the
best SNP tests available at this time and provide a good definition of
Haplogroup, which identifies deep ancestry and shows you quickly who
you should not expect to find a common paternal ancestor with.
Write anytime and we can discuss DNA genealogy and deep ancestry
genetics more.
John Carr
Have you convinced a Carr to join our DNA project this month? Enhance
your investment, encourage others to join in also.