Hello Everyone,
For those who wish to learn more about naming prefix and suffix identifiers, please
remember that there is a big difference today about legal names and informal naming. The
rules today are different from the past.
If your birth certificate has you listed as: Samuel Johnson Carpenter, Jr. – then that is
your legal name unless you legally change it. And, Samuel Johnson Carpenter, Sr. was
highly likely not named with a senior (Sr.) as part of his legal name. That said, while
his son by the same name (Jr.) is alive or a distinction is needed, then it is socially
acceptable that he can use senior (Sr.) without legally changing his name.
Unless one had a title of nobility, people normally had just a first and last name in the
past. Yes, there were occasional exceptions. It was not uncommon to be referred to where
you lived or were from. Such as William Carpenter from Shalbourne or William Carpenter,
junior, from Shalbourne. And junior could mean his father was of the same name or that
another older un-related person had the same name.
Naming suffix, are usually done with post-nominal letters or initials.
Post-nominal letters, also called post-nominal initials, post-nominal titles or
designatory letters, are letters placed after a person's name to indicate that that
individual holds a position, academic degree, accreditation, office, military decoration,
or honour, or is a member of a religious institute or fraternity. An individual may use
several different sets of post-nominal letters, but in some contexts it may be customary
to limit the number of sets to one or just a few. The order in which post-nominals are
listed after a name is based on rules of precedence and what is appropriate for a given
situation. Post-nominal letters are one of the main types of name suffix. In contrast,
pre-nominal letters precede the name rather than following it.
See more at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-nominal_letters
Naming prefix, are usually done with pre-nominal letters or initials.
Pre-nominal letters are a title which is placed before the name of a person as distinct
from a post-nominal title which is placed after the name. Examples of pre-nominal titles,
for instance professional titles include: Doctor, Captain, Eur Ing (European Engineer), Ir
(Ingenieur), CA (Indian Chartered Accountant)[1] and Professor; whilst other common social
titles are Mr., Master, The Honorable, Ms., Mrs. and Miss. Pre-
nominal letters are generally social, but can be professional in nature (e.g. Eur Ing).
See more at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-nominal_letters
There are places on line than provide proper and sometimes funny ways of using naming
prefixes and suffixes. A few examples follow.
http://emilypost.com/advice/mens-names-and-titles/
http://schmidtgen.com/wordpress/2013/10/20/how-to-use-jr-sr-ii-iii-etc-wi...
http://www.formsofaddress.info/post_nominals_sequence.html
In one of my last posts, I cited John Carpenter, the Noted town Clerk of London. He is
cited by Thomas Brewer in his 1856 work called: Memoir of the life and times of John
Carpenter – see
https://openlibrary.org/books/OL6925697M/Memoir_of_the_life_and_times_of_...
In this work Brewer cites him as John the younger and comments that the historian Stowe
(Survey of London) used the name Jenkyn Carpenter which others cite as John, jenkin or
John Carpenter, jenkin. The reason for these was that there was another John Carpenter, an
older sibling, by the same name (John). And jenkin being the diminutive of the name John.
What Brewer did not explain was that the name was a translation into English becoming
John, the younger, from a foreign diminutive name used by the family. See related at:
http://www.guildhallhistoricalassociation.org.uk/docs/17%20John%20Carpent...
In my previous post, I cite why the name jenkin was used and some of its history. John
Carpenter was not born a junior, nor the younger or had jenkin in his birth name. It was a
social description. His family had Flemish/French ancestry and used two types of names
that when translated into English became John.
As Gene mentioned in his concise statement (see below), it is possible that the two Johns
in the family may have come from two different mothers. But, at this time, there is no
evidence of this. There is more evidence indicating a use of a diminutive use of a name
translated into English.
The moral or the key to this, is not to assume or assign modern values of Junior (Jr.) and
Senior (Sr.) when looking at older genealogical records. There may be a different reason
such as John Carpenter, the younger, who was the Noted Town Clerk of London whose father
was Richard Carpenter and, whose older brother was John, the elder. The Johns were not a
junior or senior in the same family.
Today it would be like having a Jonathan and John in the same family. Or a Johannes and a
Jean (pronounced John or Jon) in the same family. They basically have the same root or
meaning and can be cited as John. But one is a diminutive or a shorter form than the
other.
Why is this Junior/Jr./junior and Senior/Sr./senior stuff important regarding this John
Carpenter?
Thomas Brewer in his 1856 book cites him properly as John Carpenter, junior – as recorded
in an old record. The junior (lower case) indicating a social distinction. I cite the
similar records in my previous post.
Amos Bugbee Carpenter in his 1898 book The Carpenter Memorial does not understand this and
cites him as John Carpenter, Jr. In 1898 the term Jr. (Capital J as in Junior) was a
child of a father with the same name.
Then William R. Cutter in his 1913 book: New England Families. Genealogical and Memorial.
1913 Edition. In Four Volumes. Volume III – page 1309 made this same Junior/Senior
(Jr./Sr.) mistake. (See:
https://books.google.com/books?id=NdAUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1309&lpg=PA13...
There are genealogies on the internet today that have John Carpenter, the younger, aka The
Noted Town Clerk of London cited as John Carpenter, Jr. with a father name John Carpenter,
Sr. Yep, they have made the older brother (John, the elder) the father and Richard
Carpenter the grandfather. <Sigh>
Secondly ... and finally is the yet unspoken and vital clue that has not yet been
breached. John Carpenter, the younger, and noted in history as the Town Clerk of London,
was likely baptized or christened on 18 Dec 1378 at Hereford Cathedral in Hereford,
England. But his age at death indicates he was likely born between 1370 and 1372.
His father Richard or Renaud was of, Grand Pont, Cambrai, Nord, France and it is probable
that John Carpenter, the younger was not born in England, but likely in France. His wife
Katherine was cited as from Zeeland which is now the Netherlands. Brewer and Stowe hints
by saying he had been living in the City (London) since his youth, but says nothing of his
birth place. They also record he was fluent in several languages including French and
Flemish.
There is absolutely no proven genetic or genealogical lineage indicating John Carpenter,
the younger, or anyone in his family is related to any Carpenters in America.
However, he is still a Carpenter and a notable historical English figure at that. And that
to me is rather cool!
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA USA
Carpenter Cousins Project
http://carpentercousins.com
From: GeneZub(a)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2017 7:13 PM
To: CarpenterCousins(a)yahoogroups.com ; jrcrin001(a)cox.net
Cc: Rootsweb Carpenter
Subject: Re: [CarpenterCousins] John Carpenter, the Noted Town Clerk of London & the
use of Junior and Senior in that time
...
To clarify the use of so-called generational identifiers or suffixes: Sr., Jr., 2nd, 3rd,
II, III, etc., were used to distinguish, according to relative age, same-named persons
typically living in the same town, whether related or not. Use of the elder was typically
within families, often to distinguish a father from his namesake son (in wills and deeds,
for example); the latter, however, was rarely called the younger. The elder was otherwise
used, as was the younger generally, to distinguish same-named siblings from each other;
these were frequently half-siblings, having different mothers.
Gene Z.
Sent from my iPad
<SNIP>