Hello List!,
A few months ago, I had a email discussion with a researcher focusing on the earlier
English Carpenters. And the same basic subject came up today again from another person
with questions regarding John Carpenter, the Noted Town Clerk of London.
Below are excerpts from the past discussion regarding John Carpenter, the younger-89. For
those unfamiliar with him, please see the Wikipedia article at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carpenter_(town_clerk)
I hope this is interesting and explanative enough.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA USA
Carpenter Cousins Project
http://carpentercousins.com
John Carpenter, the younger (about 1372 – 1442), was a Town Clerk of London. He was
elected as Town Clerk to the City of London during the reigns of Henry V and Henry VI. He
was the author of the first book of English common law, called Liber Albus (the White
Book). He was a member of the English Parliament from London in 1425. He is also
recognized as the founder of the City of London School for boys. He resided in the Parish
of St. Peter, Cornhill, London, and was buried in the Abbey of St. Peter, Westminster,
where his wife Katherine was later interred. ... (Wikipedia)
My notes include ...
WILL: A copy of his will is in the Carpenter Memorial (1898 book). Pages 12-17.
Will dated 8 March 1441 and proved 12 May 1442. The City of London School claims his
death as 12 May 1442, it was when the will was proved - after his death.
NOTE: John Carpenter, Junior the Town Clerk of London was Executor of Dick
Whittington's Will, He was a Member of Parliament. John Carpenter was a MP also.
Here is the Brewer link if anyone would like to see it.
https://openlibrary.org/books/OL6925697M/Memoir_of_the_life_and_times_of_...
Regarding using junior and senior. In these early years (pre-1500s) those terms do not
mean what it is traditionally meant today. Today they are actually social constructs in
demoting a father and son of the same name. The older use referred to age related as in
junior children verses senior children and in similar social situations.
One example is a town has two people that has the same name where one is listed as: the
younger. Even though they are not related. Socially, one is older than the other and to
keep them apart they are referred to as senior and junior. When the senior person so named
died or moved away, the younger one lost his social defining title.
Can it be used indicating a father and son in the same manner? Yes. And when senior dies,
so does the junior as a defining social term. Please remember than in the later
situation, the junior was not born with the suffix of Junior. If he had been born with
such a suffix, then he would retain it legally even if his father was deceased. This is
what is common today.
In the time period (1400s) of John Carpenter, the noted Town Clerk of London, the word
junior also meant the diminutive form of the name. But it should have been more properly
listed using the term: the younger. The same for the word senior that meant the dominant
form of the name.
This Carpenter family had French Flemish ancestry in its name history. Translations of
Jean/Jehan/Jehannes became John in English. Jean & Jehan being the diminutive form
became John the younger while some Jehans and all Jehannes became John the elder or rarely
John the older. So it was not uncommon in those early years to see two Johns as children
in a family at the same time. And hopefully they are cited properly cited.
Jenkin,
of Franconian origin, is translated in English as "Little John" or more
literally "John the little."[1]
Jen/Jean (pronounced "Jon") being a diminutive of Jehan/Jehannes* (John/Johan*)
followed by kin/ken meaning little, creating Jenkin or Jenken. (*Referred to as Johannes
in the Latin and Germanic referring to the Bible name John.) [2] The name
"Jenkin" or "Jenken" first use in England is seen as early as 1086 as
a diminutive of the English form of John.[3][4] It was often translated from the
Dutch/French as "John the younger" or seen as "John Jenken." The
non-diminutive Jehan/Jehannes (pronounced "Jo-han/Jo-han-nes") was also
translated into English as John. When Jen/Jean is present, usually given to a younger
child, Jehan/Jehannes is listed as "John the elder" but, never translated as
"Big John."
Confusion can arise when the sire is listed as John, a son is John (the elder) and another
son is John (the younger). Today, in English the term John, Senior is used for the father,
while the names of John can use Junior or numeric designation (i.e. "II").
"Jon" the phonetic of John is sometimes seen but only in males as is the younger
male nickname of "Johnny." The name "Jean" once pronounced
"Jon" in English and once a male name has become since the 16th century a female
name in English from the French Jeanne.
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenkin
FYI: The character of Little John in the story Robin Hood was likely called Jenkin and in
Old English translated to Little John.
In 1856, citing the Brewer book mention in the 1898 Carpenter Memorial, the term Junior
with a capital J properly referred to a son of the same name. Junior with a small j was in
reference to the social context.
And some one unfamiliar with the use of the 14th & 15th century Flemish/French to
English translation of the diminutive term then called ‘the younger’ would likely
translate it wrong in 1856. (Spoiler alert: see near end of this email)
When I just re-checked English Wills on line, still no 1442 will found.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_fn=John&_ln=Carpe...
The closest will to that time period that cites a John Carpenter as an executor in 1440
only. See:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_sd=1440&_ed=1444&...
Outside of wills, the closest to that time period is a 1441 Feoffment that mentions a John
Carpenter, junior. (Hint small j!) See:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/9770c916-2997-405a-9e...
Another item found is an 1443 (Papal Bulls) related to Bishop John Carpenter the nephew of
JC the town clerk is at:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C3650515
See also:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/54491320-6bc4-42a2-a0...
And I just found on JC the town clerk is cited as ...
Grant by John Carpenter, the younger, citizen of London, to Master William Licheld,...
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C5885717
This is dated 12 February, 19 Henry VI which is in 1440 of the calendar then used. But it
is in 1441 in the calendar of today. This is why we often use a split year before say
1751 for the months of January, February and March. Specifically some thing like
[1440-1441] or 1440/1441.
Yep, John Carpenter, the younger, citizen of London as listed in an official grant
recorded in 1440/1441. Not a Junior with a capital or lower case j.
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