This version for CarpenterCousins@yahoogroups with attachments less one and no attachments
for Rootsweb Carpenter.
Brian,
Good for you!
When we look at the first 25 Y-DNA markers of Group 15 (see screenshot 646 attached) we
see a patterns developing in the profile or fingerprint of the Group.
Group 15 has a division at DYS385a with marker values of 12 and 11 highlighted.
Group 15 also has a DYS449=31 with highlighted values of 30 and 32.
The FTDNA version is attached Group15.jpg. On that version DYS385a=12 is highlighted.
Based on mathematical probability (90%), we understand that part of Group 15 likely
separated or broke off independently about 10-12 generations ago. And this is reflected
in the known lineages of Group 15. See:
http://carpentercousins.com/generallineage.htm#ssva and screenshot 647 attached.
Which of those markers are considered the core of Group 15?
First some background ...
The first members of Group 15 (lower kit numbers) formed the base then as members were
added, we saw mutations to what we had on file which is why they are high lighted and
cited as mutations on the lineage page. The descendants of William C#148101 (6 members)
are mostly newer members.
As a side note, the older kit #6583 had to wait many years before a few more people
matched him! And then Group 15 was created.
In the June 2017 version of Group 15, one assumes that it should be the oldest documented
lineage shown. And this is somewhat reflected in the FTDNA Group 15 version. But the
reality is that DYS markers can mutate up and down in numerical values.
We want to assume the oldest line shown should be the core group in DYS values. But what
if they are the ones who have the mutations and not the others? This is part of the
mistake I made years ago. It is somewhat counter intuitive, but without more genealogical
data and Y-DNA testing, we do not really know which is the core values.
Based on genealogical lineages known, we can safely say that Group 15 is from England. And
that a portion of Group 15, the oldest lineage came from Horningsham in Wiltshire. We
have a conflicting (Nottingham) area and many unknowns.
It is better to indicate or say, that it is likely that Group 15 is from Wiltshire, based
on the oldest known genealogy.
I will continue with a few more items on the next email.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA USA
Carpenter Cousins Project
http://carpentercousins.com
From: 'Brian Davis' briandavis(a)ihug.co.nz [CarpenterCousins]
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2017 8:32 PM
To: CarpenterCousins(a)yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CarpenterCousins] Thomas Carpenter b. abt 1725/1730 Nottingham, Eng - abt
1790/1795 d. East Pennsboro, Lycoming, PA
Hi John
The annual conference of the NZ Society of Genealogists has been held over this past
weekend in Auckland and has sparked me into going back to my family files...hence some
queries
A general query following on from this correspondence and concerning the division of
Carpenters into their various groupings
I’m no DNA expert but understand that one can say that all Group 15 Carpenters (and
similarly for all the other groups) are more like each other than they are to all other
Carpenters. Would it be reasonable to say that it’s likely if we could go back to say 1600
that all of group 15 came from Wiltshire? I see that 16 generations back (i.e. about
1600) I am more than 99% likely to share a common ancestor with all but one of my Group
15 links. As six of those are part of George Carpenter of Palo Alto’s family whom he has
traced back to Thomas Carpenter died 5 Sept 1695 in Horningsham how likely is it that all
my ten Carpenter cousins are originally from that village?
In an email from George Carpenter (gbc3545(a)pacbell.com) 18 May 2015 he reported that you
had traced our lineage back from that 1695 Thomas Carpenter to an Oliver Carpenter born
1598-1600 in Wiltshire. Have you listed the sources of that information...I haven’t been
able to trace it on ancestry.co.uk
Your comments...or reference to articles or papers on the division of Carpenters into
their groupings would be appreciated
Kind regards Brian
From: mailto:CarpenterCousins@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 18 May, 2017 1:08 PM
To: Rootsweb Carpenter ; CarpenterCousins(a)yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CarpenterCousins] Thomas Carpenter b. abt 1725/1730 Nottingham, Eng - abt
1790/1795 d. East Pennsboro, Lycoming, PA
Brian,
You are absolutely correct. Nottingham is in Nottinghamshire, England. An old newspaper
has Nottingham which has been used in at least one book as from where this Carpenter line
came from.
I suspect that Nottingham ... if sloppily written with the H misidentified as an N and
without the crossbars on the T letters was confused with Horningsham.
It is a stretch and at least one other researcher tried and failed on this same idea.
Here are a few different font types to give you the idea. The French Script MT font could
be confused. Maybe ... Others less so.
Nottingham – Horninghsam _Typewriter Remington Rivera
Nottingham – Horningsham - French Script MT
Nottingham – Horninghsam -Mistral
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA USA
Carpenter Cousins Project
http://carpentercousins.com
PS Regarding: Horningsham, Wiltshire, England
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horningsham
Horningsham is a small village and civil parish in Wiltshire, England, between Warminster
and Frome, Somerset. It forms part of the Longleat Estate and has a peculiar form lying
somewhere between a classic dispersed settlement and a nucleated village.
... The name 'Horninges-ham' means 'Horning's homestead' in Old
English.[4] The personal name probably comes from the uncomplimentary noun
'hornung' meaning 'bastard'.
From: 'Brian Davis' briandavis(a)ihug.co.nz [CarpenterCousins]
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2017 2:44 PM
To: Rootsweb Carpenter ; CarpenterCousins(a)yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CarpenterCousins] Thomas Carpenter b. abt 1725/1730 Nottingham, Eng - abt
1790/1795 d. East Pennsboro, Lycoming, PA
Dear John
Thank you for this. I am a member of Group 15 as a great grandson of a Mr Carpenter who
produced my grandfather John Carpenter Davies in March 1856 ...we’ve discussed this
before. We visited Horningsham last May
Th DNA evidence points to my links to the William Carpenter #148101 from Horningsham
Wiltshire so I’m interested to read that this Thomas’s birth is given as ‘Nottingham
Wiltshire’ in red below I can find no sign of a village called Nottingham in Wiltshire
Kind regards Brian (Davis)
From: mailto:CarpenterCousins@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 18 May, 2017 5:12 AM
To: Rootsweb Carpenter ; CarpenterCousins(a)yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CarpenterCousins] Thomas Carpenter b. abt 1725/1730 Nottingham, Eng - abt
1790/1795 d. East Pennsboro, Lycoming, PA
Hello,
Looking for more information on Thomas Carpenter-124328 - b. abt 1725/1730 Nottingham, Eng
- abt 1790/1795 d. East Pennsboro, Lycoming, PA.
This is related to Group 15 of the Carpenter Cousins Y-DNA Project. See lineage page at:
http://carpentercousins.com/generallineage.htm#ssva
The information below includes info from various Pennsylvania counties because of the
potential overlap in county formations and such. Counties mentioned include: Lycoming
County (1795) and Northumberland County (1772). The later formed from Lancaster, Berks and
Cumberland Counties. Lancaster was formed in 1729 from Chester County. Berks was formed in
1752 from Bucks, Lancaster and Philadelphia Counties.
Cumberland was formed in 1750 from Lancaster County.
Any additional help or info is appreciated.
John R. Carpenter
La Mesa, CA USA
Carpenter Cousins Project
http://carpentercousins.com
PRF:
Thomas Carpenter Compact Disc #15 Pin #289068 Pedigree Sex: M
Event(s) Birth: Nottingham, Wiltshire, England Death: UNKNOWN
Parents ?
Personal Information Residence: 1790 Census. Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Residence:
1793 living in East Pennsboro Township, Cumberland, Pennsylvania Occupation: Owned 158
acres
Notes and Sources Notes: None Sources: None
Submitter Judy Corinne MOYNA
709 Strawberry Point Road PO Box 429 Elkader, IA 52043
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Posted by: "Brian Davis" <briandavis(a)ihug.co.nz>
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